Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, the bishop of Vienna, Austria, and one of the closest collaborators of Pope Francis with regard to the post-synodal exhortation Amoris Laetitia, has recently made new morally troubling statements with regard to marriage and the family. In a recent talk, he gave the appearance that he publicly condones the idea of “remarriage” after the divorce (but not the annulment) of a Catholic couple who were validly and sacramentally married, using his own mother’s case as an example.
According to the Austrian website Kath.net Cardinal Schönborn gave the address in question in Vienna on 19 October 2016 for the initiative Theologische Kurse, where he spoke once more about Amoris Laetitia and again stressed that Pope Francis’s document “is firmly rooted in the Church’s tradition.” He explained: “The Church’s teaching is developing, but it is developing organically. One continues to write it.” The Austrian cardinal also added: “The Faith does not change, but the form, the presentation of the Faith and the experiences which are being made within the Faith are changing,” because the times and life situations of the people are likewise changing.
Cardinal Schönborn stressed that Pope Francis has not given in Amoris Laetitia‘s Eighth Chapter “a solution for all” with regard to the matter of access for “remarried” divorcees to the sacraments, but that a responsible dealing with each individual case is necessary. The important point, according to the prelate, “is to look a little bit more closely” into each case.
According to Kath.net, Schönborn then said the following with regard to his own mother who was abandoned by her husband and who at the time was raising four children:
If his mother had remarried, his siblings and he would have understood it, even if it would have been difficult for them, according to the cardinal. “It is something else when someone is ready to walk a path together with this woman with four children, but it is different when someone willfully leaves an intact family and thus breaks the relationship. [my emphasis]
Coming from a cardinal – the highest office in the Catholic Church after the pope – this statement is quite scandalous, inasmuch as he proposes the idea that a “remarriage” might even sometimes be something good. He publicly states here that it would have been acceptable, even if his own mother would have “remarried” thereby putting her own soul – and the soul of her new partner – at risk of eternal loss of the beatific vision. He also uses positive words (“walking a path together with this woman with four children”) in order to describe a relationship which violates the indissolubility of marriage and thus is an objective offense to God.
It seems that certain prelates are now more and more losing their reluctance to make public statements that are unmistakably contrary to the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ and who thus put in jeopardy before God the faithful who are entrusted to their own accountable care.
If the Cardinal wanted to address a secular solution to a problem, it seems that he ought to have addressed change to divorce law, rather than change to unchangeable law. One is hard, one is impossible. He chose the impossible and that shows that he doesn’t take seriously something that his job is to take seriously.
Divorced families lead to more divorced families. It is very much a learned behaviour, often carrying on through generation after generation.
But his mother remained faithful to her marriage vow and did not remarry! Divorce does in so many cases destroy not only the faith in the family but also decreases the chances of successful marriages for the children. Yes, looking back the cardinal said he could understand if his mother had not been faithful to her vow but at the time, the children knew she was heroic in living her life for them and not seeking another man to take the place of their father.
Maggie, i have seen 3 young woman leave the faith because there mother suffered so much and did not remarry. Their Dad left and their mom raised them. You would hope she would have been rewarded with faithful catholic kids .They resent the Church.
I’m willing to bet those apostates just use this as an excuse. Usually people leave the Church because they want to fornicate. I’ll pray for their conversion. Their poor mother!
Yes. And yes.
Exactly Louisey, I used the pain of my parents divorce as an excuse to be an asshole and leave the faith. In the end it was after talking to a priest at Lourdes that helped to use the suffering as a blessing and not as an excuse to be a disrespectful fool.
It’s very traumatic for the children, as I know, and I can’t see how ‘remarriage’ would help. That priest was a good one, obviously. I thank God you found him.
Jpeil, nice anecdote. Let me tell you one too. My mother remarried. I was physically abused by my stepfather; and therefore, my perception of God was as very angry and hating being. I left faith because of my mother’s remarriage. Now, unfortunately, I am divorced too. I raised not three girls but three boys, one of them was born a month after I became “single mother.” That was nearly 17 years ago. During that time my own mother was trying to convince me that I would need a “father” for my three boys, as my sons don’t know their father, period. I don’t know what kept me away from “remarrying:” my own awful experience or my faith. One thing is sure, it was grace. And I thank God Almighty every single day for that grace.
Hence, seeing three young women leaving the faith because their mother was suffering is a big “baloney.” Oh, by the way, did I mention I am also on disability? Tell me more about girls leaving faith because of their mother sufferings.
Wow! Another beautiful and edifying story! May you surely not lose your reward! And how it is that the likes of you @ALieIsALie [Well spoken: ‘Like that The Truth Will Set You Free and AL Is A Lie] and @victoriaestevan and @Sunisyde were not invited to the Synods on the Family? And how it the likes of you did not merit the attention of the Synods that it is such families that actually need Mother Church’s help in their struggles resulting in your fidelity to the LORD? How things have been inverted!
Sorry but your story does not change the fact that those girls resented the Chuch and left it because of perceived injustice of not allowing her mom to remarry.
Two of my three keep the strong faith. The oldest one left (temporarily) not because he suffered under “not remarried” mother, but because at the time his mother, I, did not better, and sent him to a “catholic” high school where he lost his faith.
So, your solution is to pretend Our Lord didn’t say what He did on this topic?
“walking this path together” — Lord, preserve us from weasel words.
I will never understand why people would want their divorced parents to ‘marry’ other people. Even after an annulment, it’s about the last thing I would want for my parents. Family life is difficult enough as it is.
It seems to me that something nearly all people nearly universally agree upon is that cheating [= being unfaithful to one’s partner] is bad and undesirable. I remember reading that it was over 90% (close to 98%?) of those polled reported that.
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The Kardashian girls, not exactly role models, were appalled and resented their mother when they learned she had cheated on their father with another man whilst she was still married to their father.
Why? Because they want them to be happy!
And the ONLY way anyone can be happy is to get married of course!
This, from the same people who believe that marriage is just a piece of paper. 🙂
He publicly states here that it would have been acceptable, even if his own mother would have “remarried” thereby putting her own soul – and the soul of her new partner – at risk of eternal loss of the beatific vision.
Yet it’s pretty hard to avoid the conclusion that, at base, His Eminence actually doesn’t believe that she would have been risking anything of the sort. In short, even the chief editor of the Catechism of the Church is, at the very least, a proportionalist.
Either he has changed his mind since, or he was just giving lip service to what he perceived as “the party line” in the last two pontificates.
Whenever I hear a modern churchman saying something is “firmly rooted in tradition” or a “development of doctrine”, I wonder why it is that they can never show us exactly where in the objective documents of the traditional, historical church their novelty is rooted, or how it logically follows from authentic doctrine developmentally. If it is so firmly rooted, it should be very easy to show us, Your Eminence. I’d like to see the non-fallacious syllogistic chain that leads from St Thomas or St Augustine or Scripture or the Council of Trent to the footnotes of Amoris Laetitia.
I suspect this is never shown because in truth the modern novelties of the church aren’t rooted in tradition and don’t follow from authentic doctrine. It is a fig leaf, something they throw out there at thoughtful but obsequious Catholics to get them to second guess themselves about the absurdities they are hearing.
Good use of the word: obsequious.
In all honesty, I think that the Cardinal is being extremely ungrateful to his mother for her sacrifice.
That’s a beautiful picture that reminds me of an anecdote of a friend. My friend and his wife were sitting on a couch with their (4yr. old?) between them and child by himself took the hand of his parents and joined them together across his lap. A lot of lessons here, one is that instinctively, children know. At that time, my friend told me that he and his wife were becoming distant.
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Another anecdote from my friend is that his wife and her boss were invited to her boss’ boss’ house. The boss’ boss is in a SS relationship (male + male) and I believe they had two children, a boy and a girl. My friend told me that the children, especially the boy, could not let go of his wife and clinged to her from the time she entered the
homehouse till the time she left. Again, children instinctively know.Correct me if I wrong but Pope Francis’ parents were also divorced?
Yes
Interesting. And sister too?
Not sure
Sacramental Marriage is for life..period. It is sin on the part of a spouse (husband or
wife or both) which causes the break up of marriages and families. Nothing is more
painful for people than sin …and for Our Lord who suffered so deeply for our sins.
Awww….that’s nice that you would be okay.
Would Jesus be okay?
Would St. Paul be okay?
Jesus + St. Paul > Cardinal Shonborn
Plus, as I have witnessed in my own family, the so called “good guys” in a divorce situation can at times actually be the “bad guys”.
It’s all a matter of public perception which can be gravely distorted, even in the “private forum”.
Plus it never hurts to have connections… 😉 😉
Simply amazing but then again he’s a pal of Frankie’s. God never changes!! What doesn’t this heretic understand? And isn’t suffering part of life especially the Catholic Christian life? I never remarried after a horrible marriage of abuse, adultery, and alcohol and raised two children myself of which one is in heaven. This was thirty-one year’s ago even though I had the opportunity. This is not our real destiny and only pilgrims passing through and if we believe and stay faithful, pray, especially the rosary, holy Mass, and the sacraments, we will reign with Christ, His mother and the saints in heaven. That’s the hope we have in Christ.
Another beautiful and edifying testimony. May you surely not lose your reward.
I wonder if the Cardinal ever stopped to think that his Mother was steeped in the Will of God and her vow to God of marrying his Father. I don’t know the particulars of his situation, but his Mother may have offered up the sacrifice of raising four children by herself for the salvation of her husband and his conversion…..I happen to have given my FIAT to Our Lord when He asked me not to seek an annulment, but to offer the sacrifices of raising our three children with Our Lord and I. It has been a glorious road of sanctification for me personally, and I am still praying for the conversion of my husband. It has been fourteen years now and the children are 18,17 and 16. They have suffered greatly by not having a father and a spiritual head….but I know that Our Lord has them in His Sacred Heart in a very special way……you see……He became our everything!
Good comment Victoria about the fact that his Mother followed the correct path and deserves to be respected for this. Kudos to you for choosing the right path.
What would you do Christopher if every one of her kids left the Catholic Faith because the suffering it caused? Would that be Gods will?
It would mean the children were ungrateful little turds.
Louise Yvette, again: yes and yes.
Baloney. See my reply to you above.
My parents divorced when I was 11, I have an older brother and a younger sister, my Father is an observant Catholic and my Mother is a non observant protestant. My Father prays for my siblings as I do to come back to the faith, however my brother and sister are adults and choose through their own free will their path in life as I did before reverting back to the One Holy Church… Thanks Be to God! Sadly, there are no guarantees in life for anyone to follow their faith until their dying breath it’s God’s grace that keeps us in the battle and it’s a daily struggle.
Regular mass, confession, prayer and adoration protects us and we as Catholics acknowledge the powerful intercession of the Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven. Our reverence to the Holy Mother of God, ever Virgin Mary is where their is a massive difference between the Catholic faith and the rest of Christianity.
I shall pray for Victoria and hope that her example and prayers to Our Lord protects her family.
In regard to the final part of your question about God’s will….. I’m 44 years old and God is timeless I would be an idiot to ever try and discern God’s will about someone else’s situation. God has spoken through the prophets and his only Son Our Lord Jesus Christ and has shown us what he expects from us to attain heaven and help others following the narrow path that we should take with joy.
Just absolutely wonderful testimonies here and fruits of grace at work. Thanks be to God and may you persevere.
May Our Lord continue to bless you abundantly!
You may not yet see it, but God is answering your prayers every day. Every day, He speaks to your husband’s heart. May God continue to bless you.
Now that’s an edifying and beautiful testimony. May you surely not lose your reward. You may not see it here, but how much happiness you will get, by the grace of God in heaven, in seeing the fruits of your faithfulness to the LORD.
You (and apparently his mom) are FAR better Catholics than he seems.
God Bless You….Nothing is impossible with God…..
Why don’t Bergoglio and Schoenborn and the rest go join the Lutherans without us? That is where they want to be. Why do they try to drag us all into that communion, kicking and screaming? Why do they try to use their authority to impose upon on us rules for mercy that begin from the premise that there is no authority, that conscience is supreme?
They must believe they are saving us from hell. What hell?
If they left and became members of the luther cult they wouldn’t be able to destroy the church from within. Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich wrote about the two churches within the one true church. One of the churches would be a disgrace with dancing and many other abominations entering the mass and the true church would become very small if her writing is true we have been heading towards this moment for a long time. Akita is another example where the devil is described as infiltrating the elect.
Exactly!
OK, let’s face it folks; We should no longer be surprised that the upper echelons of the Catholic Church today including the Pope are effectively Lutheran. It’s been obvious for a long time.
I came to the Church from Lutheranism, so I understand it from the other way around. My study of the teachings of the Catholic Church unveiled the life-giving reality that God CAN and DOES through His Church offer victory over sin and the world, in short, over the passions. I came to realize the laxity and feelings-oriented religion of Lutheranism was not a reflection of the Word of God. Lutheranism is a caving in to the passions.
There is an endless powerful virtue in what St Paul {1 Cor 13} refers to as the more excellent way; Love.
And what is love?
2 John 1:6 says: “And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love”.
And
1 John 2:3-6 says: “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked”.
These guys like the Pope and Schönborn clearly seem to be sick and tired of that pesky Word of God that just plain gets in the way of their hurt feelings and past bad experiences and…passions. They exhibit a deep effeminacy. They pretty obviously do not believe that the teaching of the Catholic Church on how to reconcile with God is true, and they just don’t want to follow OR teach others to follow the commandments of God as clearly set forth in the teaching of His Church. They don’t believe people can be saved in any existential way, nor can they achieve anything, regardless of what God says.
“More than conquerors” seems to mean nothing to them.
Really, we can discuss and analyse and debate and suggest and imply and dodge and shirk and wonder and obfuscate all we want, but it is clear.
Ask any reasonable and common man who can read and it’s very likely he is simply going to tell you that Pope Francis and Cardinal Schönborn and Kasper and Daneels and the rest of that crowd simply do not like the Catholic faith and are doing their level best to change it. Just ask a Protestant what he thinks is going on in the Catholic Church today.
Let’s cut the crap, “conservative” Bishops. Face it. The Pope and his friends are Lutherans. You can pretend this hasn’t happened all you like. And many of you should look hard inside, because it is happening to you little by little, too. Which one of YOU have taken a sledge hammer to the abomination of desolation, the statue of Luther the Arch-heresiarch the Pope just set up?
For many leaders in the Church today, including the Pope, clearly Luther has won the day.
The only question now is: “What are Catholics going to do about it?”
The Schism has occurred. It already exists. As a convert, seeing the split is easy. I see it in parishes and in the various factions within the Church. It’s crystal clear in the rods of the leadership. Maybe cradle Catholics don’t see it, but it really isn’t hard to see, unless your eyes are fogged over by the notion that no matter what happens, it “just can’t be”.
Well, folks, it can be and it IS.
Schism is here.
Well, I mean, that’s hardly news. It’s obvious, isn’t it?
“We should no longer be surprised that the upper echelons of the Catholic Church today including the Pope are effectively Lutheran”.
You mean “heretics” and “apostates” don’t you? The language of Vatican 2/modernism has softened and dulled the the meaning understanding of “Lutherans”……The “ecumenical’….aka “can’t we all just get along?”. “Modernism” is all about language and the denial of Truth, Word of God, and Dogma/Doctrine….to wit…bluntly stated….”There is/was/and will always be…..”No salvation outside the Catholic Church”…..it’s a dogma…can’t be change by anyone…including a lunatic Pope!
Why yes, yes, that’s what I mean.
It is easy to see how personal problems both motivate behavior and corrupt the intellects of Catholics.
How many Catholics like Schonborn do you know that have had a friend or family member who is divorced, or gay, or a feminist, or a non-Catholic, or a politician, that has allowed their attachment to that person corrupt their Faith?
This is the story of most conciliar leaders… whether it was Jewish or Protestant friend, or family members or friends with difficult or immoral choices, and you read from them some “attachment” that “informed” or “influenced” their thinking, or had an “impact” on them, and that impact amounts to heresy or apostasy for us all.
So true!
This is exactly what has happened throughout Protestantism.
“Everybody thinks homosexuality is an abomination…until their son comes out of the closet.”
Luke 14:26
Excellent article – brief and to the point!
Wow-Look at all these Holy people. Put your self back 50 years ago and tell me what a women with 4 kids was to do when her husband left. The marriage was sacramental _ no annulment, few jobs for her but lots of blame. Out of 4 kids only one is Catholic because they resent the Church. The only Catholic is my Mom who was shipped off to a convent in south Africa to be raised because her mother could no longer support her. Fast forward – Same thing now my wife’s best friend & her sisters all left the Faith because their mom could not remarry. Their poor Mom was rewarded for her faithfulness with all of her kids leaving the Church? When one side has nothing to do with some one leaving is that what you Holier then thou Catholics want to see. This has been going on for 100 years so don’t tell me about Child Support in the countries. Were is the Mercy so circumstances like this?
Praying for you!
Well, let me give it a shot.
First, a story.
My grandfather was a Methodist minister. Not even Catholic. He died in 1933 during the Depression, leaving my Grandmother with 6 kids and ZERO income in rural Nebraska. There was some government support. My Mom told me of many nights eating chocolate pudding for supper that they got in aid.
My Grandmother adored my Grandfather. No divorce, but the same or worse scenario you describe in terms of economics. She had some help from parishioners, but most just wanted to adopt the kids. She refused. She did anything she could to support them. They all turned out to be incredible high achievers.
And…she refused to remarry. She never had an interest in giving herself to another man.
I’m sure it was so much easier for her than for your family. No doubt…
So let me get this straight; It is Jesus’ fault and the Church’s fault because these women cannot remarry after they get divorced? It is the Church’s fault that kids leave the Church?
Due to my work in financial services I have seen a lot of divorces. The number of divorces I’ve I have seen that were the fault of only one member are almost nil. No one wants to accept that. They want to pass blame on the “other guy” and get a free ride for themselves. In truth it is the nature of people who get divorced…. BOTH blame each other.
So it is really hard to process the stories you set forth and harder yet to accept that it is “the Church’s fault”. No, it is impossible to accept that it is the Church’s fault.
They made their choices and their choices harmed their families, and they and others want to pass the blame to the Catholic Church for holding to the teaching of God.
Blame God. Take it up with Him. After all, the Church didn’t force Jesus to say what He said about divorce. It was kinda the other way around.
As for blame, I’d like to lay some out.
I’d like to lay blame for the wreck of a culture we have at the feet of the many who divorce.
Because the whole “remarriage” thing isn’t a solution.
It is just yet again another problem.
So, you want to change the Church’s teaching?
Newsflash; There are plenty of Christ-professing religions out there that already accept unlimited marriages.
There is, however, only One Church.
So you are now a divorce expert and just decreed its never just one persons fault. Seriously! Adultery is always someone else fault.. Wow. This is the only sin that is perpetual in punishment when one party does not want the divorce and you have the arrogance to say its never the case. How many Catholics do you know that know little about their faith today but we all decree they were faithful knowledgable Catholics when they went to the alter? Like it or not her kids see it as a injustice and left the Church which pains her. This is not blaming the Church or our doctrine this is simple sharing the actual results in a generation that does not understand sacrifice.
HaHaHa!!
Hardly the expert.
But I am a man of the world so-to-speak, and my Dad was a Methodist minister who dealt with these things continuously and in my business I have to work with divorce settlements ALL THE TIME.
But your argument is incredibly weak. Embarrassing and demeaning and humiliating to Catholics as well. It makes the bizarre assumption that most {since I think we’d agree that Catholics tend to be poorly catechized} Catholics are so friggin clueless they have no idea what in the world they are doing as they drunkenly stagger blindly up the aisle IN A CHURCH BUILDING {‘cuz the “mean and nasty” Catholic Church won’t let them do it on the beach…}, join hands and stand before a bunch of people {forget even God for a moment if you like}, and say some words that almost always include something like “married till one of us dies”. But of course they didn’t mean them. Of course! They just didn’t know what they were doing! How can we expect ANYONE to be honest, anyhow? People are incapable, INCAPABLE of keeping oaths, telling the truth or staying out of their neighbor’s bed! It’s preposterous to think otherwise!
HaHaHa!! The Catholics you know must be way more stupid and idiotic and mind-numbed and blithering than I thought when I was a rank, benighted Protestant!
I personally think all the ones I know and have known are much more intelligent than that.
Wow, again the arrogance you have to make the assumption that those actually involved in the annulment process are ignorant of all the complex variables & your the expert? Simple question for you. Your spouse & you have what looks like a Sacramental marriage for 20 years.The spouse cheats on you and wants a divorce or abandons you financially after you find out. ( Remember America is not the only place for Catholics).
You have completely failed on every level to admit that sometimes it is someones fault for a divorce and yes only God really knows.
HaHa!!
Oh, BooHoo!
Now the arrogance!! Oh, my feelings are hurt!
Let me tell you about committees. Committees are only as good as the moral courage of their members. Complexities be damned. They make decisions based on pressure, either the pressure of serving God’s will…or man’s. Some are good, and some are bad. Ditto tribunals, and in today’s world it is pretty clear the rules have changed on Catholic marriage, or shall we say, “Catholic divorce”.
Now, to the contrary, I have not failed to admit that it is someone’s fault…in fact I have made the case that in most divorces BY FAR, the fault is on both. BOTH.
Not always, and when it isn’t, truly isn’t, the tribunals we pray will understand the difference.
But regardless, the Church has always taught that under some circumstances separation is the only answer…but remarriage is another thing entirely. Look at the divorce rate of second and subsequent marriages. Is it as high as first marriages?
No, it is not. It is far worse.
Divorce and remarriage is NOT the answer to the collapse of marriage as an institution. The Early Church Fathers understood this in a culture where divorce was rampant, as was fornication and adultery, yet they and the CHURCH maintained that the words of Jesus were to be taken with the force with which they were given by Jesus. Indeed, what lacks today in the Church is the moral strength of the leadership to stand with Jesus {and the perennial Magesterium of the Church!}. We see prelate after prelate dodging and weaving about this issue, catering to the whims and fancies of “the people”. The same exact thing prompted Moses to cave and give the people the divorce laws they wanted. THE EXACT SAME LAWS JESUS CONDEMNED.
Truth is, people do not want to follow God’s law. They want to cheat, to lie and to enter into terrible relationships and suffer no consequences for it. So often even those that everyone says are faulted later, first entered BAD relationships that they themselves chose. Oh, so sad. We feel so sorry for the woman or man who later gets cheated on WHEN SO OFTEN THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHAT SORT OF PERSON THEY WERE MARRYING. They want to marry, divorce, remarry and let their kids take the hit for it. And overall, the remarriage of the divorced is a hit to the kids. Emotionally always, but physically as well as we know that molestation and abuse occur at a staggering level among the divorced and remarried.
As for your theoretical question, best is to give the truth; I and my wife have been married for 30 years. We are both sort of abrasive and hard to get along with {as for me you will no doubt agree!} but we are loyal. Why? Because we didn’t just SAY the words, we have made every effort to live up to them. And you know what? If my wife DID cheat on me, I’d keep her anyway. You know why? Because I would rather give my kids that model than the model of running away. And, because I fear God far more than I fear life without someone who is loyal to me.
I asked you a simple question but your so prideful you need to preach what you know to distract from your inability to answer a simple question. To suggest that I am asking a theoretical question as if its rarely a reality is a joke. Pull your head out. I did not ask you if you would keep your wife if she cheated I asked you if she wants a divorce from you and you don’t there is nothing you can do about. Thats a fact. I don’t need a speech about what the Church teaches or peoples lack of commitment. The devil and temptation can attack the weak spouse. Who’s is culpable in Gods eyes? Where is his mercy applied in a situation where it is not what you want but you have no choice? Don’t tell me its not a perpetual burden on the other spouse especially when they are young with kids to not have the option to remarry.
This is a very tough situation for the Church to answer but you know more then the church so answer it. The bible says if you “Divorce someone” & remarry its adultery. I get that. Is the person not wanting the divorce really divorcing someone in Gods eyes or just being forced into a legal process. They did not leave their commitment or oath. Your so honorable in keeping your cheating wife but so ignorant to understand for many people is not your choice.
More tender little hurt feelings.
Are you so stupid you couldn’t even understand the answer I gave you? Here, again…read slowly; I’d live alone.
The answer is simple and has been staring you in the face for 2000 years: The Church knew how to answer the question and did, with clarity until the modernists began the onslaught against the Magisterium that has resulted in the chaos we see today.
Have you ever thought that just maybe a person who chooses another who cheats has made a terribly bad choice and isn’t capable or trustworthy enough to choose again? Have you ever thought that just maybe Our Blessed Lord knew that when He uttered the CLEAR words found in the Sacred Scriptures?
Because the statistics tell us that by far most subsequent marriages fail which is another way of saying they shouldn’t be trusted on the whole to do what they couldn’t do right in the first place. AND that all sorts of mayhem is likely to happen in subsequent marriages.
Of COURSE the tribunals must make this judgement…BUT FOR THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH THEY DID ON THE BASIS THAT ALL MARRIAGES ARE VALID UNTIL MORE AND MORE THE ANSWER IS TO ACT AS IF ALL ARE INVALID UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.
Seriously, you act the part of the gutless and pathetic. With your views you really just need to pack it up and be honest with yourself and ditch the Catholic Church and just become a Lutheran or an Anglican or a Methodist or some other sect that doesn’t care about the teachings of Christ like you don’t. There are MANY groups out there that are wholly on-board with your reasoning. They will be happy to give you your way. Grow a pair and face it.
Or better yet: Why don’t you change your beliefs to follow the teaching of Our Lord?
You have the answers, you just lack the guts to face them and like so many these days you want the Church to give you what you want instead of following the teaching of Christ.
Well, I can tell you that some of us do not. We would rather stand with Christ and the ancient teaching of the Church and if we run into trouble are willing to pay the price rather than stab our Lord in the face.
And MANY have done JUST THAT.
I have FRIENDS who have sworn off all dating and marriage BECAUSE OF THEIR LOVE FOR CHRIST. They know they made mistakes and they are paying the price…and saving their children from the life of a second marriage. See, some have the faith to face reality and accept the words of Christ even if you and your family don’t.
People like you make me sick. The cowardice just oozes out of every word you post. You spit on the graves of the saints like Sir Thomas More. You spit on the lives of those I know who have gone thru terrible divorces and now live a celibate life in union with their Lord.
How much more of the whining and the capitulating and the fussing God will take from those of you who want to pervert His teaching I really don’t know. But you should praise Him that he is merciful enough to let you have time to change your beliefs and ways.
Its pretty funny to watch you all over this blog responding to almost everything.. You come across as a little nuts .Im not a coward you blundering fool. I have been happily married to 22 years & love the Church. You again fail on every level in your argument and just spew self righteousness.. You are now saying that a person who gets married then there spouse cheats on them 20 years later was fool at the Alter & should not be trusted. Are you kidding me.If they were a fool at the alter then why would you say prior that everyone at the alter is smart enough to know what they are doing to create a valid sacramental marriage. Kinda of stupid logic you idiot.
More nonsense. More begging for false mercy. More pleading for feelings to trump truth.
First, as I have said {gets a little embarrassing having to hold your hand here} tribunals exist for a reason.
Second, the notion that all is peachy until one person cheats is in almost every case absurd. As I have said, I deal with divorces ALL THE TIME and the mess BOTH parties cause is routine. Even if it happens the way you imply is routine it does not change the FACT that the Catholic Church does not automatically allow an annulment to be granted for adultery…or didn’t for almost 2 thousand years till the changes in recent times especially in the USA, largely in the USA as a matter of fact.
HaHaHa!! Being called a “fool” by you is a compliment. THANK YOU. Like the poor “fool” Sir Thomas More who should have saved his neck by telling old Henry to dump his Main Squeeze for Squeeze #2.
Your position is Lutheran. Seriously, do a little research both on the teaching of the Catholic faith…and on that of the Lutherans and you will see that everything you probe for and want is found in abundance in the Protestant sects, including the eisegetical and heretical interpretation of Christ’s words. But what you want is not found in the age-old teaching of the Catholic Church.
Clearly you HATE the teaching of the Church and want it changed to suit you. I GET that. It is obvious. Plain as day and lots of people feel as you do. So if you have any integrity left and refuse to accept Catholic teaching, then just move on and become a member of any one of the sects that long ago baled on the Truth and fell for the lies of Satan.
Or, better yet, convert to the teachings of the One True Church!! In fact, PLEASE convert your heart of stone to truth in Christ.
You are begging me to say “Sure, if that happens then the other party should be freed to remarry”. Well, it just doesn’t work that way for those committed to follow Jesus Christ. I know some and I recommend you go hang with a different crowd than the pseudo-Catholic Lutheran impostors you are stumping for.
Cheers!
I am not and have never been divorced so its not about me dumb ass Your experience and observations do not trump mine when it comes to what I have also observed. You continue to fail to answer a question. ANSWER IT YOU COWARD. Christ clearly said if you divorce and marry another you commit adultery. Thats True! So who divorced who is my question? What did Christ really say and mean by if YOU Divorce and marry another?. Did he mean , sorry honey your screwed because your husband legally divorced you & married another,look its in the bible your screwed too. Who is culpable in Christ’s eyes? How does this apply in annulment. Does it really matter who’s fault it is or who is willing to continue to try? So your logic continues to fail. You first said “no Catholic is too stupid to not understand what they are doing at the altar” (So no room for annulment there) and then you say a “person who’s spouse cheats on them 20 years late was stupid and their decisions should not be trusted” WHAT!!!!!! I am not a fan of Francis or the libs in the Church. This is the only issue where mercy trumps legalism and the Church is trying to apply its mercy and justice in these tough situations. Why don’t you spend some time with some Young Catholics thinking about marriage and ask them why they are Catholic. You will be appalled that most have no good response or even understand what makes us different and why it matters. If you really trust the Church’s magisterium then let them decide not you. The promise of leading them to all Truth on issues of faith and morals was not given to YOU! If we can trust the magisterium then none of this really matters does it?
According to the teaching of Jesus and the teaching of the Church, NO MARRIAGE MAY BE BROKEN. PERIOD. You are confused because you make plain you do not know the teaching of Christ or the Church but what you want is something other than what is taught by both.
A tribunal does not decide who is at fault for a “broken marriage” and then assign guilt to one and then let the other off scott-free. They are called to decide if a marriage ever existed in the first place. That is their primary reason for existence. There ARE cases where a civil divorce is “allowed” {physical separation} but if a valid marriage existed, neither of the parties may “remarry”…because the concept of a remarriage doesn’t exist.
What was especially originally and still IS an INvalid marriage? A number of things: marriage of too close blood relatives. Forced marriages done without consent. Marriages of those below the age of reason or when one is below the age of reason. Second and subsequent polygamous marriages. Marriages where there is no intent to be open to life/children. These are all marriages {using the cultural term, not the Church Sacramental term} that occur in various parts of the world and some increasingly will be especially in areas where Muslim colonization continues as the Pope encourages. What is new and different today {google Edward Peters’ analyses of the issue} is that years ago in the USA and now recently broadened throughout the world is a new set of criteria for nullifying a marriage that is so extensive that basically ANY couple can find a reason or reasons to get their marriage annulled {in theory}! But now the local Bishop has greater authority. And I am not sure in practice what that means, but it sounds ominous like variable standards will exist in practice.
If two people are married, and they divorce, they are both divorced. That is a secular concept and one the Protestants have accepted in spite of the teaching of Jesus and the Church.
If a tribunal annuls a marriage, aside from the civil law issue, there is still NO DIVORCE. There can’t be because an annulment establishes that no marriage ever existed. They never WERE married. EVER. A marriage didn’t exist. Doesn’t matter if they were civilly married for 25 years and had six kids, NO MARRIAGE EXISTED. That is what is called an “annulment”.
There is no such thing as a marriage that results in one divorcee and one “annulee”. If you don’t get that or like it, I can’t help you. There is no other answer to give.
You’ve made it clear you want some other arrangement than that which the Church has taught for all time, possibly one where guilt is assigned to one person, barring them from remarriage, and innocence is assigned to the other party, freeing them to “remarry”, or something like that. That does not and never has existed in the Catholic Church.
The annulment of a marriage is just that, the decision that the two were NEVER married in the first place. You are confused because you look at the problem from the perspective of a Protestant who wants to change the teaching of our Lord and blame it on “mercy”. In Protestantism there are various approaches that have technical differences but they basically approach the matter from the perspective that there is some “justification” for a divorce of a valid marriage. Culturally, I have seen some ecclesial groups where one party is basically shunned while the other is accepted based on the judgment that one is bad and the other good. But anymore, nobody seems to care much. That’s how it is. It’s a cultural practice based on a faulty reading of Scripture that says {at best} that divorce is acceptable if certain conditions apply {such as adultery or sometimes some other list of vices}.
Jesus, and the Catholic Church, do NOT teach that. There is either a valid marriage which may not be broken OR a there exists a relationship THAT WAS NEVER MARRIAGE, EVER. Members of a valid marriage who “divorce” {break up their relationship}…MAY NOT REMARRY. If they both “remarry”, they commit adultery. THEY. Not just one of them. Even the “nice” one. Yeah, marriage is THAT important.
Now, as for reconciling the statements I made that you misunderstand, it is simple. I appreciate the fact that you actually read my post, tho! LOL.
Almost ALL people when they marry make promises and take oaths. And ALL Catholics do…and are required to do so IN A CHURCH. Those oaths may be made stupidly or flippantly, but they are oaths nonetheless. If I go to court and swear to tell the truth but don’t give a rat’s @$$ about the oath and lie, I am still guilty of perjury. As it has always been seen in the Church…
ARE there cases where people just had no clue what they were doing? I guess. But by far most intended, when they say the words, to at least sort of mean them! Let’s face it, in our world, people want all sorts of promises to be made conditional AFTER the fact! It is evidence of the cowardice of a collapsed civilization. But an oath is an oath and the rest of society {starting with the children who suffer the most in divorces} shouldn’t suffer the damage that constant divorce and remarrying causes. I guess it is safe to say that Christ saw that clearly! Thus a person who takes flippant oaths should be held to those oaths AND NOT BE TRUSTED WITH FURTHER DISREGARD FOR SUCH OATHS. In practice this is EXACTLY what Christ taught and what the Church teaches, but which is now, like many other things, under assault by those who want, like yourself, to destroy the teaching and Protestantize the Church in the name of “more mercy” than that which Christ had!
What people want today is to simply change “sin” into something that isn’t sin in order to do whatever they want. They call it “mercy” when in the past and for all time it was, and still is, just plain old sin.
Consistent for the modernist heretics.
Mother follows God. Cardinal son says it would have been good if she disobeyed God.
Before God Card. Schonborn will have no excuse because all his mothers that God gave (Church, Our Lady, his mother) him led him well.
With Cardinals/Shepard’s like this who needs enemies and wolves?
You mean the wide path that leads to damnation?
It seems the Cardinal does not understand Jesus’s own words. And yet he is a Cardinal.
The difference between Saints and Theologians? Saints believe the word of God, Theologians take it as a “suggestion” to be studied
My observation and thinking is that any husband NOT the actual father of the children of his divorced and civilly remarried wife is a danger to those children. Cf. This testimony below: http://disq.us/p/1d8fq91
Perhaps as a product of the age this is more common, although we ought not forget the Holy family.
divorced and civilly remarried was key in comment, because it is a union entered in with grace absent. The devil has a field day.
*
PS St. Joseph’s and Mary’s marriage, a true marruage. St. Joseph, true father to the LORD even when having played no part in his conception. It is through Joseph that Jesus is a son of David. Can’t recall which saint it is that says that his partenity is higher even than of those who contribute to the conception because it was more chaste.
I get it. I was just thinking of other ways that an adoptive father could enter a child’s life.
True and it is said that one of the genealogies of Jesus in the gospels is Mary’s but the descent that counts is through the father. On Joseph being true father, recall in Matthew that he is the one who names God’s Son. St. Paul with great insight says that all fatherhood comes from God the Father, it is he who made Joseph father of his only Son, Jesus.
Schonborn if you read this blog- we all understand human weakness, it leads us into mortal sin when not resisted- the cross saves us not good intentions. The Church has taught that unrepentant adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven since Christ reaffirmed it with the woman at the well, St. Paul reaffirmed it in Romans- there’s no way around it and all sentimental whimpering in the world will not change those facts.