It is once more thanks to the untiring Guiseppe Nardi, author of the German traditional website Katholisches.info, that we learn of the confidant statement recently made by the Brazilian Cardinal Cláudio Hummes – who is a close friend of Pope Francis – concerning the Dubia of the Four Cardinals. Cardinal Hummes is also the prominent promoter of the slackening of the priestly celibacy. However, he also has been under critique for questioning whether Jesus Christ really was opposed to homosexuality.
On 25 November, 2016, Hummes gave an interview to the Spanish news website Religion Digital. In this interview, the former Archbishop of São Paulo commented, also, on the recent Dubia published by the Four Cardinals concerning Amoris Laetitia. In his own comments, Hummes makes it look as if this resistance is insignificant and of very little weight. He says: “Without wishing to relativize this fact [of the Dubia] …. but these are only four cardinals. In the Church, we are more than 200 [cardinals].”
Hummes continues his defense of the pope with the startling remark that “the whole College of Cardinals is with him [Francis].” When speaking about the importance of accepting diversity while keeping unity within the Church, Hummes first adds:
This diversity is being delegitimized when the unity is threatened by divisions. The division is really an evil, not the diversity. The Church wants to be open to all sensibilities [sic]. The pope says that we should walk together and that we should not exclude anyone. […] If someone wants to cut himself off, that is another case.
After rejecting the idea of a homogenous uniformity the cardinal then adds the following incomparably stunning remarks about the four cardinals themselves and their “divisive” Dubia:
The pope could be wounded by the motives which led these four persons [sic!] to go so far as to want to correct him. But, he is very calm [sic!], relaxed, and moves forward. He knows which is the right path that one has to follow. And the College of Cardinals is with him, without any larger problems. The whole College of Cardinals is with him. [my emphasis]
As Nardi rightly asks, why, then, did the pope avoid meeting with the College of Cardinals as a whole at the last 19 November Consistory in Rome?
Dr. Maike Hickson, born and raised in Germany, studied History and French Literature at the University of Hannover and lived for several years in Switzerland where she wrote her doctoral dissertation. She is married to Dr. Robert Hickson, and they have been blessed with two beautiful children. She is a happy housewife who likes to write articles when time permits.
Her articles have appeared in American and European journals such as Catholicism.org, LifeSiteNews, The Wanderer, Culture Wars, Catholic Family News, Christian Order, Apropos, and Zeit-Fragen.
If I have to hear one more person blame the division and confusion in the Church on anyone but the Pope, I am going to lose it. It’s like someone has built a “Pope Francis Excuse Machine” that keeps popping out a different scapegoat every time Francis does something/insults some group (usually faithful Catholics) that results in said division. Eventually, they have to run out of other people to blame besides the root of the problem . . . right?
It’s all George Bush’s fault.
Exactly. Where was this division before Francis?
Well, we have to face up to the fact that it started with Paul VI, and was fueled on by John Paul II and Benedict.
Go back to the last known true practice of the Faith, which you will find at the nearest SSPX chapel, and sit tight.
Spot on. Every time I read something crazy from Pope Francis, you can bet some spokesperson will rush forward to explain that the Pope doesn’t really mean what he really said or didn’t really say what he really meant or has been misinterpreted or mistranslated. My current favourite was his declaration on the plane from Krakow to Rome that there was no link between Islam and violence. This provoked almost universal derision. Needless to say, Austen Ivereigh, one of his biographers, rushed out an article explaining how Francis was being very clever and denying ISIS the propaganda high ground.
Obviously the man is a liar.
”…but these are only four cardinals. In the Church, we are more than 200 [cardinals].”
Seriously?!?!? – But us laity are millions. And we stand with The Word of God, regardless of what the Pope says.
The problem is the laity are confused about what is right.
The Catholic laity are not confused about what is right – its just the rest who are confused.
It does sound familiar. Seems like the Communists in South and Central America has taken over the Papacy and the Vatican. The same people that Pope St. John Paul II looked upon as enemies of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Sandinistas from Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 1980’s are now in charge of the Holy Church. The Pope and the Vatican is mourning a Communist brutal dictator that have the blood of Martyred Priests on his hands. Obama and Hillary Clinton are Communist Zealots with CNN and MSNBC. They are running on similar parallels of progressive agenda One Secular and the other Religious with the revolution in the Catholic Church which favors the swing towards the Culture of Death.
It is very difficult to understand what these men’s idea of the “Catholic Church” really is. Jesus said “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” Jesus was not very nuanced. He told His first bishops that He was going to Jerusalem to be killed, and Peter tried to talk Him out of it, Jesus called him “Satan” so there was a difference of opinion but Jesus did not then say “ok Peter let’s put it to a vote”! God’s preference is always for small numbers anyway Cardinal HUmmes!. That way, any success is beyond dispute – His!
“It is very difficult to understand what these men’s idea of the “Catholic Church” really is.”
True, but getting less and less hard to decipher.
I see more and more clearly these guys affirming the existence of a loose federation of dioceses joined under a banner bearing the word “Catholic”, holding to no specific faith or moral universals except for the obligation of the laity to regularly and frequently contribute funds toward the support of the Ordinary and the Pope.
As for how many prelates will stand for Catholic truth, only time will tell.
It does seem a kind of religious “deregulation” is being set up within the Church by PF. Let’s hope thousands of Catholic people do actually read these orthodox blogs and not just the people who end up commenting. It would be sad if the message about our predicament is not spreading widely. Amongst the people I meet, very few have a clue.
“very difficult to understand what these men’s idea of the “Catholic Church” really is”.
Anything they want it to be. They’re like the White Queen in Alice: “Anything I say three times is true”
I don’t remember the White Queen’s ever saying that. Or any other character in the Alice books.
Mea culpa! You’re quite right. Wrong book. Wrong character but right author. The bellman from the Hunting of the Snark
“”Just the place for a Snark!” the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
“Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What i tell you three times is true.”
As we have discovered in recent years, our bishops have no problem lying when needed. They certainly are not a good example for the rest of us. But again, if they were saints, the Church would teach us to emulate bishops AND the saints, but it only asks us to emulate the saints.
I have no doubt that the majority will ‘resist’ the Pope. As we saw during both Synods where they voted AGAINST his attempts at changing Church teaching. Yes, bishops like Cardinal Hummes continue to help us realize that the Catholic Church certainly is NOT controlled by the bishops, otherwise it would have ended long ago. No, he is wrong, Jesus will certainly save us in the end, protecting truth and tradition.
I pray that the rest of the bishops and Cardinals start doing something, otherwise, the only other option is the fruition of the prophecies of so many of the saints. Where they will ask, is there any faith left? But Christ promised to protect his people as a whole. Some of us will feel the pain of real persecution and perhaps even martyrdom, but Christs Church, even if it is only a remnant, will survive.
The question is, will we stay loyal or will we throw up our hands and give in to Satan?
If” the majority resist the Pope”, they’re awfully slow putting their names down.
Well then I guess if they don’t come around, there is only one other option as I stated. The majority of bishops had no problem in a Synod where their votes are hidden from view, but when it comes to publicly apposing the Pope, perhaps they are afraid.
I would think that the four Cardinals received much private support before they went forward with this, otherwise it would have been a vain attempt and only gave us empty hope. On the other hand, they may look at it like Saint Thomas More and they only cared that they stood up for truth no matter what the cost to themselves and their reputations.
I think it has now been reported that there were originally 6. If so, who are the other 2? The Pope knows them, so what are they worried about from John Q Public?
The comparison of the Church to what was happening in England under and after Henry VIII is, I think, remarkable, with prelates in effect, under whatever pressure or enticements they see, caving in more and more to false teaching.
But surely there are some who won’t give up and give in.
I don’t suppose we actually do need to know their names. If the right things get done it’s not important. Maybe there is a lot of support for the ‘Magnificent Four’. But if there is none at all, Cardinal Burke is right, what matters is they stand up for The truth. Even if they are the only people on the planet. “Do what is right though the skies fall”.
fiat justitia, ruat cœli. (let justice be done, though the heavens fall.)
Thank you. I knew it was something like that.
Where are the Borgia popes when we really need them? For that matter, where is Torquemada when we really, really need him???
Perhaps there is some reasoning that if the Pope ceases to teach, the teaching office is now in suspension. That may mean that everyone is then not under any compunction to obey a Papal directive ?
Actions in the service of truth is never a vain attempt.
The Ottaviani Intervention was actually written by + Archbishop Lefebvre. He secretly lobbied the Cardinals and there was a good number that supported the Intervention.
However, news re the Intervention leaked to the press and the Cardinals chickened out (pun intended). They were afraid to sign the Intervention. Only Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci signed their names on the document. Since Cardinal Ottaviani was the Secretary for the Holy Office (the Pope was the real Prefect until the reorganization of the Curia by Pope Paul VI), it was called The Ottaviani Intervention, even though he was not the real author of the Intervention.
Interesting.
I agree 100%. I do however have to keep hoping things are proceeding behind the scenes. After all, the dubia existed for a few months without being released. Possibly the Big Four are working the crowd, taking names and counting “votes” for a correction of the Pope or possibly something even grander?
They should have done the counting before releasing the Dubia – but then, Cardinal Burke said numbers didn’t matter only Truth.
I’d sure think they must have to some degree. Regardless, Burke promised a “correction” if the Pope didn’t respond, so more is to come for sure.
I certainly hope & pray so, but it is not good to let the grass grow beneath your feet. They should act quickly.
But perhaps a minimum number is needed for this to be taken seriously by the Catholic global community. There are 218 Cardinals.
In human terms that is for sure. What I keep thinking about is that Rod Borgia was elected. And then some 60 or so years later, admittedly after a cataclysm, we have the Council of Trent!!
What human institution could have seen such a nadir and then experienced such a recovery?
No doubt! The Church is a Divine institution so any thought of dismantling its hierarchical structures, its supernatural message – all of it, is misguided, and it will all come back.
And he is right. Even if there is only him, he would still be right because the truth is not a matter of the vote.
We are supposed to be in the service of the truth and not the ballot box.
Yes, absolutely.
I hope you are right that there are many Bishops who agree. The trouble is the Pope has full global authority to effect changes institutionally and perhaps his reach includes institutions anywhere (e.g. such as the jpII Insitute for Marriage & Family no matter in which Diocese they are). So the Pope could override any Bishop anywhere ??? At the end of the day, true Catholics need to exist somewhere and hopefully those good Catholics in teaching and governing positions need to be protected to carry on their work without undue interference for as long as possible. So the question (in my opinion) is whether speaking up would then attract the spotlight onto that Diocese and bad things begin to happen there ???? I have no idea what the flow on effects are but presumably sound, educated Bishops know? I heard a great phrase a while back that “I know I am going to be crucified but I reserve the right to determine which hill!”
That is all true. It highlights tho the need for Bishops to have a martyr’s heart. I believe 100% that if the bishops rise up, even in small numbers, for the TRUTH and then advertise the Peronist-Fascist response against them that for the sake of discussion happens, the Church will be empowered by it.
This Pope is 80 years old. He won’t be alive forever. In fact, the clock isn’t ticking, it is GONGING.
Silence seems to have become an epidemic amongst the Cardinals. At what point do the laity inform them that enough is enough & just leave?
I think that has been happening for the last 50 years. Just look at the stats. And Pope Francis thinks that putting more gas on the fire will help put it out.
As an ex-Lutheran, what I see is Pope Francis exhibiting rank mainline Lutheranism. And if he opened his eyes, he’d see that rank mainline Lutheranism is dying. For good reason. And good riddance.
Maybe we have a mustard seed.
That’s a good idea to remember. When napoleon lay siege to Rome, I heard this: that he threatened the Pope that he would destroy the Church if he refused to crown him. The Pope replied something like “good luck. If we haven’t managed to destroy it after all this time, you stand no chance.”
Something like that.
That’s fantastic! You made my day.
Wow! Glad to oblige! I probably ought to find the quote.
Ok. Here it is. It was a papal emissary, not the Pope though. The quote begins “if in 1800 years we clergy….” It’s cited here
http://boatagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2009/07/flashback-july-1809-excommunicated.html?m=1
Thank you very much! I finally got to read it. It was almost like a mini novel.
Some things that really struck me were:
1) Napoleon Bonaparte physically assaulting the Pope – that was heartbreaking
2) that Napoleon wanted the Pope to be simply Bishop of Rome – it reminded me of the words of PF when he was elected 3/13/13
and
3) the words of Cardinal Consalvi that you mentioned earlier.
That made me laugh. Actually, in Scripture, there is one place where God laughs. To paraphrase, God laughs at those who think they’re smarter than Him.
I really learned a lot from that post. Thanks again.
Your words are very kind and you are most welcome.
O Lord, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
“Without wishing to relativize this fact [of the Dubia] …. but these are only four cardinals. In the Church, we are more than 200 [cardinals].”
No one stopped to asked him “Who is Athanasius”?
You seekers of certainty in all things!
There is one thing necessary to know.
The whole Sanhedrin was with Caiaphas.
The whole College of Cardinals is with me.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4d2bdabea0f78f05d870570fc5f72a056b9c9996f8a89f4b18b95b8f788ac3dd.jpg
Well, there were at least two members of the Sanhedrin who were not with Caiaphas: Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus…and they were correct in their not going along to get along approach to ecclesial affairs.
Not trying to be stodgy and old fashioned, but what the hell is going on in this picture?
Nostra Aetate.
Now get back to being joyful.
If you ever were in the first place.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7cad148b2fde534522d9969f27137342dd159e7931415428b2f3fb29a7756cdd.jpg
Psycho Picture!
Pastoral.
Pastorally Psycho!
That poor guy must have gotten caught proselytizing…
Do you know who he (you) is giving the “what for” to?
One finger pointed away, three others pointed back at him.
What a little thug.
A public manifestation of religious indifferentism, which Pius XI called apostasy.
I always appreciate your peteresque visits, your kind, loving, benevolent and immeasurably pastorally fluid (yet humble) humanity. Surely we are more unlimited by your presence.
[Practicing my Bergoglian accent.]
Pope Francis the unifier…everyone getting along through the healing balm of the Papal hug: A Muslim, A Jew und der Papst. A Kufi, Yamaka and Zucchetto all healed by a hug.
Precious…
LOL You have to post more often.
So, am I to conclude that the Four Cardinals (and the other two who signed the Dubia for the private correspondence) are no longer Cardinals? If the whole college is with Pope Francis and Amoris Laetitia then does that mean that the Four (+2) are no longer members of the Sacred College? Yet they are members of the Sacred College, so the whole College is not with Pope Francis regarding Amoris Laetitia.
Furthermore, the damnable elements of Amoris Laetitia were voted down in the 1st Synod and those elements were only included due to Pope Francis’ personal intervention to keep them in whatever the post 1st synod report was called. So, one can easily deduce that there are even more than the Four (+ the anonymous 2) who are not with Pope Francis regarding Amoris Laetitia (or other things as well.)
It seems that certain Cardinals are not well trained in Logic…
Fr. RP says: “It seems that certain Cardinals are not well trained.”
There, fixed it for you.
😉
Father, in a few moments I will be accompanying a young man with graduation from his RCIA class. I have encouraged him to embrace the faith and have intentionally not brought up this debacle to him as I find it embarrassing and I think it might shatter his journey into the faith. Please pray for him. His name is William. God bless.
I will pray for him. However, you need to beg the Holy Spirit to assist you in helping William to understand that things are not all that rosy right now.
Remind him that there was trouble in the Apostolic College from the beginning: Judas the Iscariot. And even St. Peter was rebuked by both Jesus (for thinking like a man of the world) and St. Paul (for giving in to the Judaizers.)
If you don’t tell him eventually he will find out on his own and that may very well injure his faith. You don’t have to go into all of the dramatics of the current situation, just that there is dissent in the Church and it’s God’s Divine Will to permit it for He will use it to bring about clarity of Truth.
I always inform people who come to me to join the Church that they need to be prepared to uphold the faith against other members of the Church, even members of the hierarchy, who have gone off the liberal progressive deep end.
Father, I occasionally bring these things up with people who are learned but cannot see. One cant even bring these things up with seminarians (or ex-seminarians) because in their formation they’re not taught how to discern (to use Francis current buzzword) the true faith with the counterfeit one, reality from virtual reality. There are some good intentioned Catholics who have absolutely no idea that we’re in a crisis, the fourth biggest (to quote Bp. Schneider). I want everyone to know what’s going on but for those who aren’t ready for it’s a case of Russian roulette on how they will take and understand it.
Agreed. that is why I said he didn’t need to get into details, just that he needs to be prepared to defend the faith, even in the Church.
One of the most cunning tricks of the Devil is to use the Truth to lie to someone: ” the gates of hell shall not prevail” becomes “if the Pope said it, it must be ok” or “well its common practice in the Church (say communion in the hand etc…) or the Church permitted it, so it must be fine.”
Dear Father RP, I’m in your gratitude for writing this, because I had never considered the reality of stating the “Gates of hell shall not prevail against our Lord’s church.” You are stating clearly that we have to remain truthful as Catholics to our faith and therefore need the courage to always remain aware of becoming too soft or malleable. Praying for you!
My father told us at the dinner table that we were living in another Protestant Reformation. He said there were millions of people who were born and died during the Protestant Reformation who never heard of the Protestant Reformation.
He said these things about 50 years ago–possibly before the Council had even ended.
It is hard to defend the Catholic Church today with all the clergy abuse, the liberal theology of P. Francis and his dissident followers, and the intervention of George Soros in the affairs of the Catholic Church – see –
THE POPE’S BOSS — Wikileaks: Pope and Soros An Unholy
Alliance
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2714-the-pope-s-boss-wikileaks-pope-and-soros-an-unholy-alliance
‘The Rigging of a Vatican Synod?’ Edward Pentin with
Raymond Arroyo
EWTN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1oV2f2grg
We have to totally depend on the power of the Holy Spirit to expose and destroy the evil in our midst.
The synods were diabolically manipulated in such a way as to cause division, confusion and break up. It sounds like “Alinsky” strategy.
Yes, this pope is a scandal and I do not know how to explain him to new Catholics. I try to put the best face on things but interiorly it is a different story.
I say that there have been lousy popes before. But a lousy pope is actually proof that Christ’s promise that his Church would withstand the gates of hell is true.
A friend’s son was supposed to be received into the Church but he backed out because of the Pope’s errors.
May the Lord pour out His spirit upon William so that He will be steadfast in faith, and constant in love for Him who is our beginning and end.
This is why the SSPX is a refuge for Catholics and attendance at their Masses and reception of the Sacraments they administer is perfectly legitimate in the midst of this terrible crisis.
Eventually the crisis will be resolved, but in the meantime we are duty-bound to protect the Faith we have been given.
That first part (thinkers being scared away by Bergoglio) is bound to be more and more common.
Heartfelt prayers for William!
No Father it is simply that the 4 Cardinals are not members of his church which started some time in the 1960s, which had suddenly discovered mercy after the preceeding 1900 years. Unity in diversity is the calling card of the modernist, who sees no problem in asserting that revelation can be found in different religions etc Anything but that judgemental, rigid, neo-pelagian straight jacket known as Traditional Catholicism.
Or in the Faith…
On Fr Z’s blog, he says it appears that the pope is intending to strip Cardinal Burke and other cardinals of the cardinalate,…
In a way, that is a good thing at least for their souls in that they would be literally punished for being in Christ’s name.
“But, he is very calm [sic!], relaxed, and moves forward.”
Didn’t Pentin said that the Pope was “boiling with Rage”?
And Pentin is no liar. Looks like someone might be though……
Joy? Rage? To discriminate between these dynamic human emotions is neopelagian law-loving.
Forgive me.
Do not fear. Annihilation solves such problems.
But I fear annihilation!
Lol. I have the feeling that this kind of modernist dialog can last forever so I think you have a bit of time.
Joyfull rage perhaps?
Truthful lying?
Life affirming murder?
Chaste adulterous life?
Now if that were a dubia, as Bergoglio, I could guess: Yes, yes, yes and yes.
I cannot shake the gnawing sense that I’ve just read the words of a snake.
Is it the hissing ?
I don’t believe him for one moment.
Perhaps we need to remember that those cardinals who are wanting to sign have far greater to lose or to risk than retired cardinals and bishops from far away countries Please don’t misunderstand, the dubia written and signed by the Four Cardinals was a great act of courage and fidelity to Christ along with the others who signed afterward.
I shall never be grateful enough to them, for they have kept hope alive and have helped keep this Catholic lay person focused like a laser beam for Christ.
All that I suggest, that for many cardinals who remain silent, they may need more time, more personal prayer, and more prayer from the laity to help them do the right thing. Regardless of the magnitude of the consequences in doing so, they too, shall be held responsible for not defending the faith and protecting the souls entrusted to them.
I have faith there shall be more princes of the Church to follow. And I bet this cardinal is worried about that as well.
He is so transparent!
“I have faith there shall be more princes of the Church to follow” …I agree – see my response to Ana Milan above.
As yet, no African, European or Asian or US Cardinals have shown their hands.
Confident it will come in time. For some reason I think those supporting the Dubia have chosen deliberate times to voice it publically….just gut feeling
Burke is a U.S. cardinal.
Does that connect to where he was when he was born or incardinated so would being assigned to Malta not mean he’s European?
Or do you mean his nationality?
There were Cardinals who contributed to the books written for Second Synod of the Family…I have those books.The books (Eleven Cardinals Speak on Marriage and the Family and Christ’s new homeland- Africa), had numerous contributors – all aligned with Catholic Tradition and Teaching. I am waiting for those Cardinals to speak. I am very sure that they will.
I am praying for them daily.
I hope so too. It is necessary for them to be heard.
I don’t believe Burke was just blowing gas.
This thing is big.
At some point that “correction” of which Burke warned the Pope is going to be made, and then things are really going to get interesting.
This thing is very big. And all they have to counter the dubia with are ad hominems and ad populums. There has not been a single worthwhile argument in favor of AL and that has told me everything I need to know.
I am so looking forward to the formal correction.
This thing is a bad head cold for the Pope and his sodomy-supporting allies.
It just ain’t going away any time soon.
Just read Arch. Chaput joins bishops calling for clarification of Amoris Laetitia by Deacon Nick Donnelly”ewtn.co.uk.
Excellent!
He did it in typical Chaputian double speak though…Deacon Donnelly’s quote of Chaput is lifted from a larger interview that I linked to a few days ago on 1P5:
“Archbishop Chaput still hasn’t a clue…Says Amoris Laetitia has some things that need answered but Pope is A Ok in his book and shouldn’t be criticized (still will never be made a Cardinal by Pope Francis):
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/5231/archbishop_charles_j_chaput_on_vocations_elections_apostolic_exhortations.aspx
”
It would not surprise me if Chaput has a word with Deacon Donnelly…
From personal experience, Chaput is very touchy about deviation from formal, correct address and content as it applies upward the hierarchy. If you say something that he deems disrespectful about, say, a news story about the usccb funding abortion, for example, he assumes a very “traditional posture”.
As I said yesterday, Chaput still wants his red hat.
“Because I said so.”
“Because there are more of us than you.”
Really?
Our Blessed Lord hung on a cross because the faithless had an advantage in numbers.
Any inclination one had to give this viper’s tangle deference out of respect for their office has evaporated.
There is only one root crisis in the Church today, and apparently it is in the priesthood.
That individuals such as Danneels, Maradiaga, Schoenborn, Cupich, Kasper, Marx, Tobin, Bergoglio, Hummes, Dolan – one could go on and on, but why – could rise to any position of authority in any enterprise is astonishing.
Maggotry.
Drunk on narcissism.
Without common sense, let alone faith, hope or charity.
If not one Pope, Cardinal or Bishop was willing to stand with Christ, would it make the Truth any less True? No. It would only indicate there were gravely flawed men vested with responsibilities they are unwilling to exercise.
But there are some willing to endure the raised Bergoglian brow. We can be grateful for that. Deeply grateful.
We can hope that discretion and prudence are at work to erase the scandal presently wielding the stick of aberrance.
Amen!!
The correct answers to the five questions are: no, yes, yes, yes, yes.
That is all anyone should wish to hear from the Pope or any other members of the hierarchy. Everything else they might say is irrelevant gossip, temporizing, deception, and bullying.
There’s lying, avoidance and Cowardice too.
And let us remember, that yes/no format and clear speaking IS THE WAY OF PAST POPES AND THEIR METHODS OF DEALING WITH CONFUSION IN THE CHURCH.
The “Ambiguity Defense” is not honorable, acceptable or sufficient.
I do not believe the Big Four have scampered off with their tails between their legs. Something is brewing.
When you say “past popes”, you have to go back to at least Pius XII; ambiguity has been the Vatican dialect ever since John XXIII.
Well, yes, of course.
Ambiguity has been around since the Council of Ferrara -Florence in the 1400s, thank you.
I agree something is brewing and I’m hoping it’s nicely done in time to be served on Pope Francis as a unique Christmas gift. Now that would be one ‘accompaniment’ to his Christmas dinner that might prove very difficult to digest.
Burke did say that there is a next step. I don’t remember the exact words, but it’s something like papal correction. He says it’s been done. Which goes to maybe John xxi? Xxii? Where he was preaching about a postponed beatific vision after death vs immediate personal judgment (the traditional first step before general judgment.) some bishops forced him to retract it. Time wise, this was during an avignon papacy.
Yes, he has been clear.
A formal correction will be issued. He has also stated the Scripture verse guiding this movement:
https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/cardinal-burkes-groundbreaking-interview-signals-official-papal-resistance/
He has cited Galatians 1:8 and most importantly for the process, Matthew 18. See the end of verse 17 for the end game if the Pope doesn’t correct his error.
“17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
Agree
Look, there are more important things to do than answer the dubia.
There’s this interview with an atheist.
There’s the visit to Lund.
There the call to be made to someone to give them permission to have a sacrilegious communion.
Is the pope calm or boiling with rage? I am confused.
Let us come together in the middle, no more divisive polemics of ‘calm’ or ‘boiling’, but rather let us find unity in simmering…
That is funny.
The exchange here was classic.
No, I don’t like that either. That is how we ended up with frogs legs.
Perhaps unity in the luke-warm?
Please see my above post re Apocalypse 3:16.
I was actually thinking of that too. Without referencing a concordance, I think that the vomit line is the only mention of “lukewarm” in scripture.
Dear Fr. RP,
You made me laugh with your remark. However, on a more serious note, this is what the Apocalypse (3:16) says re those who are lukewarm (not you, obviously):
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
Maybe the Cardinals in Rome should start reading it again.
Confusion is a sign of FrancisHoliness. You must reinterpret this from the fluid of living… Something like that.
Consider yourself accompanied.
Calmly boiling with rage?
“Many will remain silent rather than oppose error.” St. Francis of Assisi
The only one causing Division is Bergoglio. The Catholic world understands this, even if some Cardinals and Bishops do not.
Depends what you mean by “the Catholic world”.
I really don’t believe that any more than a few Church attending Catholics would understand that, never mind the occasionals.
The only place where I find that is at my local pro-life group. Everyone else seems to think he is ok, or better.
Point taken. What i mean by the Catholic world is the that group with a common belief in the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Mystical Body of Christ, who believe in the Sacraments. If we truly believe in the Blessed Sacrament for example, the Real Presence of Christ, then we would easily see the error coming from this imposter. For those who do not yet see it clearly, we must pray.
PAX
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9f1dd4c06272e1980692c1793be65543052423ae3bebc27fea58b745057642c1.jpg
Cardinal Hummes said:
“…but these are only four cardinals. In the Church, we are more than 200 [cardinals].”
Mark 5:9
And he asked him: What is thy name? And he saith to him: My name is Legion, for we are many.
THEATRE
QUEENS
Debased, depraved
Demoralized, debauched –
Virtuous faithful
Scrutinized, watched.
Debauched, demoralized
Depraved, debased –
Queens send priests
Away disgraced.
All authentic
Approved, diverse –
Conjugal love, now
For perverse.
For “we” the Church
Do validate –
With anything
Cohabitate.
While Theatre Queens
Clutching their purse –
Dialogue with the devil…
As for Hell they rehearse!
But Cardinal Dolan now has the smell of the Sheep (and the Camels!)
You stole my thought!
No, no, no. He now has the smell of hair spray, cosmetics and Channel No. 5.
How smooth are those shoulders?
Well, one must be sensible when one is gallivanting about with sheep and camels…
Lol
That should be Dolan’s official portrait. It’s so sheepy and messy.
Now, *this* image is an excellent argument for cassocks.
I know carols are premature, on this second day of Advent, and that this may be irreverent (although not any more so than a prince of the Church in a chorus line), but I couldn’t resist…
“On the fourth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
… four Rockettes laughing,
… three camels flirting,
… two ewes a-fleecing,
… And a jackass with a donkey in tow!
Poor donkey.
Sad spectacle.
I wonder if he is auditioning for the Moulin Rouge
Hate to say it, but one picture is worth a thousand words.
If you do not wish to “relativise” the dubia-questions then you admit they have absolute importance (!)
The more these Francis partisans talk, the more they sound like US Democrat & media operatives confidently telling us why Hillary Clinton could not possibly lose the general election.
They never learn even from one another. Sheer blinding arrogance.
Everytime I hear an AL supporter the first thing that comes to my mind is the Character Stephen from Braveheart when he said “Stop changing the subject and answer the *%#$ question”.
If the whole College of Cardinals is with the Pope, while did he refuse meeting them? And Cardinal Ruini said after the Kasper proposal that over 85% of the Cardinals who spoke criticized the Kasper proposal, and the other 15 were just embarrassed! Hummes is lying! Shame that a Cardinal lies, but what have we not seen these days with Francis?
Cardinal Hummes is yet another Latin American Cardinal (Rodriguez from Honduras) that have presided over countless Catholics abandon the church for evangelical communities. +Hummes is of the same caliber as +Wuerl and +Cupich.
I’ll stick with +Burke.
Oh, and one other thing…..two Polish bishops are standing by the four Cardinals who have requested the Dubia. Anything this Pontiff writes is a dead letter in Poland.
Pope Benedict XVI is the only one who can fix this mess. He needs to come out of retirement and serve His Master one last time…
He could say that his abdication was accompanied by serious error and it is therefore invalid – which I’m pretty sure would mean that Bergoglio returns to Argentina.
Is it within the doctrine of the Faith for him to do that?
He could just speak the truth for the Truth.
“The pope could be wounded by the motives which led these four persons [sic!] to go so far as to want to correct him. ”
Don’t let that get lost on you.
This cardinal refers to the four cardinals as “persons”.
He intentionally doesn’t give them their title.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this thing went full-Castro now.
Very astute observation. TY.
“This diversity is being delegitimized when the unity is threatened by divisions. The division is really an evil, not the diversity. The Church wants to be open to all sensibilities [sic]. The pope says that we should walk together and that we should not exclude anyone. […] If someone wants to cut himself off, that is another case.”
My gaydar just broke.
No, the “entire college of cardinals” is not with the Pope but the majority are. This is no surprise. History repeats itself. Athanasius alone resisted the Arian heresy and all English bishops, St. John Fisher excepted, submitted to Henry VIII. This is not news. Neither is it relevant to where truth and righteousness lies in this matter.
What a colossal smoke screen. Just answer yes/no to 5 simple questions, already!
Are they? I wonder.
So what else is new?
Of course those who affirm sexual license would support the Pope.
Birds of the same feather…….
I keep thinking that it seems to me that some of the silent ones have skeletons in the closet and perhaps have been sexually compromised. Perhaps the innovators have something on them and therefore they dare not open their mouths. That’s how the elite, politicians, etc., are controlled to advance the agenda.
You may have a point there.
I still believe though that some truly believe that the best way is to be silent and just pray and that I think is a very valid and very good stance. More things are wrought in this world by prayer than we can ever know.
I am reminded of the two stands during the Maccabean Revolt. The Maccabees and the woman with 7 children. I think the sacrifice of the woman and her children in fact helped the Maccabees win.
That wonderful and brave mother and her seven sons and Elea’zar [was thinking about him just this morning and comparing him with many of our prelates] whose martyrdom in his 90th year was an example of nobility and a memorial of courage, not only to the young but to the great body of his nation [where is such example from our prelates?], did give testimony even unto death and the Holy Spirit inspired the sacred writer to preserve that testimony for us.
That’s one of my favorite stories in Scripture. FYI: The Feast of the Seven Holy Maccabees , their mother Solomonia and the Holy Priest Eleazar is on August 1 on the Byzantine Catholic calendar.
If we only knew…
And how many were against St. Athanatius?
My question is: WHERE ARE THE OTHER 196 Cardinals??? Are there no more men left in the College of Cardinals? Only bellies?
I guess, just like John Fisher, these four courageous cardinals will be ecclesiologically beheaded while the rest of the cardinals measure for the drapes in the shiny new offices given them by Bergoglio…for their betrayal of Christ and His Church.
To paraphrase St. Thomas More: “Not for the whole world should a man sell his soul, Rich (Richard Rich). But…for Wales?” All these sinfully silent cardinals will pay with their souls for NOT speaking when duty required them absolutely to speak.
What Cardinal Humme said is very grave for the Catholic Church. The Pope is in error and the whole College of Cardinal are backing the Pope this does not correct the error. This just shows the whole College of Cardinals have been corrupted. This means only four Cardinals are defending the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church from heresy and apostacy. Is this the Catholic Spring that John Podesta mentioned in his emails. Is it an International Catholic Spring with the Pope and the College of Cardinals transforming the Catholic Church into a New Age Catholic Church that will not resemble anything Catholic in the end. If so they need to be stopped. How does this happen when there are only four Cardinals defending the Holy Catholic Church from a Progressive Modernist Pope and two hundred Cardinals that are openly betraying Jesus Christ, Almighty God ? What do the four Cardinals do confront the Pope and the college of Cardinals. Do they declare the Pope is a Heretic and should the Pope be declared an Anti-Pope and the College of Cardinals are Apostates. We are in uncharted waters.
” If someone wants to cut himself off, that is another case.” The Pope is the one cutting himself off from Jesus Christ and the Church because he has introduced ambiguity and confusion in opposition to the clear words of Christ. St Paul warns us not to receive Holy Communion while in a state of serious sin or living in sin because it is a sacrilege that brings sickness and even death. I can tell you Hummes is lying when he says it is only 4 cardinals. Mueller, Pell, and all of those who spoke out against giving communion to adulterers oppose Frank the hippie Pope. Liberal Modernist in the Church are just big liars who speak propaganda because they want to deceive. Frank hippie Pope answer the dubia! Answer the questions!!!!!!!!!!!
Hummes is 82 and only 2 years older than Francis. Notice he is also an old liberal and these men are the swan song of the liberals. They are desperately trying to change things and perpetuate their error that has emptied the Church. 10 more years they will be gone! Cupich is 67. He retires at 75 … 8 more years. God deliver us! Oh Lord remove these men! We will need a very good Pope next conclave!
Hummes is 82 and only 2 years older than Francis.
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That means, about to meet the LORD. What will they say to Him?
Yes, but cardinals can vote in a papal conclave up to the age of 80. Furthermore, even though a cardinal-bishop must submit their resignation at 75 does not mean that the pope must accept it. The pope can ask them to carry on for quite some time as diocesan bishops.
Even if the whole world were to turn against you, I will never abandon you LORD.
St. Pope John Paul II, pray for us!
He was part of the problem.
No. You are so so wrong! John Paul II was a true Catholic completely faithful to the Magisterium and he had a beautiful and great devotion to Our Blessed Mother. Why is your heart so hardened against this truly holy Catholic Pope and priest? Hopefully you can answer me honestly and back up your accusation. It s the right thing to do!
Having the deepest veneration and gratitude for Pope Saint John Paul we cannot be blind to the fact that he is responsible for advancing an inordinate number of the moronic and mendacious to the positions they presently hold.
How the like of Jorge Mario Bergoglio was ever considered for the episcopate is beyond reason. That Bergoglio, like the others, put a good face on to cover himself is without question. Ladder climbers and sycophants the lot of them.
A good leader rips the masks off. John Paul did not do that.
Why?
It is possible he didn’t have a depth understanding of the heterodoxy viral in the clergy because infidelity and duplicity was not native to his person. He couldn’t believe his confreres in the priesthood could be hypocrites at such a depth level. This wise and holy man was at a certain point blinded by love for his brothers in the priesthood and the episcopate. He was naïve.
I never use the word hypocrite — it is used far too often. But when you have clergy of every rank running around saying they are Roman Catholic when they barely hold to basic Christian understanding of God and man — they are at the very minimum hypocrites.
In my mind they are criminal.
The advancement of the Brave 4:https://disqus.com/home/discussion/onepeterfive/silence_gives_consent_four_cardinals_challenge_francis/#comment-3009338189:
Carlo Cardinal Caffarra, Archbishop Emeritus of Bologna
– 8 Sep 1995 Appointed Archbishop of Ferrara-Comacchio, Italy | 264. St. John Paul II (1978-2005)
– 24 Mar 2006 Elevated to Cardinal | 265. Benedict XVI (2005-2013)
Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke, Prefect Emeritus of the Apostolic Signatura
– 10 Dec 1994 Appointed Bishop of La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA | 264. St. John Paul II (1978-2005)
– 20 Nov 2010 Elevated to Cardinal | 265. Benedict XVI (2005-2013)
Walter Cardinal Brandmüller, President Emeritus of the Roman Curia – Other
– 4 Jun 1998 Appointed President of the Roman Curia – Other | 264. St. John Paul II (1978-2005)
– 4 Nov 2010 Appointed Titular Archbishop of Caesarea in Mauretania | 265. Benedict XVI (2005-2013)
– 20 Nov 2010 Elevated to Cardinal | 265. Benedict XVI (2005-2013)
Joachim Cardinal Meisner, Archbishop Emeritus of Köln {Cologne}
– 17 Mar 1975 Appointed Auxiliary Bishop of Erfurt-Meiningen, Germany | 262. Paul VI (1963-78)
– 2 Feb 1983 Elevated to Cardinal | 264. St. John Paul II (1978-2005)
Hoping you realize I never meant to imply he got them all wrong. Many proved quite extraordinary, and they are long gone. Cardinal O’Connor comes to mind…
I know you saw the reference I made above to reportage by Gloria.tv, but in line with your contribution it is worth “writing it out” — that when Jorge Mario Bergoglio was being considered for Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Father Kolvenbach told Pope John Paul that Bergoglio was emotionally unstable and temperamentally unreliable. This same insight into Pope Francis comportment was offered by an Argentinian bishop (whose name escapes me) at the announcement Bergoglio’s election to the papacy in 2013. Apparently Pope John Paul disregarded Kolvenbach’s warning believing left-wing Jesuits were unsympathetic to Bergoglio because he was not sympathetic to Liberation Theology (how things change). In 1988 Kolvenbach shunned Bergoglio, sent him into exile to Cordova and sent those sympathetic to him to Europe.
And here we are today.
My point all along has been that people make a sweeping accusation against the great and saintly pope without knowing ALL that went into the decisions he made and the reasons he made those decisions. The Gloria. TV News on the 28th of November 2016 gives one reason why Pope St. John Paul II still went ahead, having weighed the information he was given vs. other considerations. Again, I repeat that we ought to recall the parable of the wheat & the cockle. Even the angels don’t get to uproot the cockle before harvest time.
With all the Freemasons in the Vatican, papal hands can be tied. Recall Pope Paul VI said the smoke of satan entered in 1972.
Eh. I’ll take a Saint that didn’t pray with pagans and honor the excremental book of Islam.
Even if he was part of the problem, we must remember that even the Saints were sinners. They were not perfect, but did die in a state of sanctifying grace. Besides, JPII is not our problem or immediate threat- Francis and his cohorts are.
Is his name Hummes or Homos?
With Cardinal Hummes having credentials as laid out in the article’s first paragraph, I would be quite upset if I was a cardinal and he WASN’T opposed to me.
If Cardinal Humes is in any way correct it will take divine intervention to install a holy and orthodox Pope. Let us pray that this happens soon as the powers of darkness appear to have overwhelmed the Vatican.
Well two thirds of the Cardinals voted for Begoglio almost four years ago and that was before he started rigging the deck. So unless something drastic happens we are in for several decades of heresy from Rome. But I am confident Our Lady will put an end to this evil in 2017.
Yes, but all those Cardinals were appointed by JPII and B16. There’s no guarantee how these men will vote in a conclave. Who appoints them is only one factor, and not necessarily the decisive one.
I can’t wait for that 100th anniversary of the Fatima miracle!
Might makes right? No, I don’t think so. All that Francis must do is answer a few questions. Perhaps he does not know the answers?
He knows but wants to hide the answers
196 Cardinals against Lord God Sabaoth and His Army of Angels. I will not bet my pint on Hummes and his friends.
196 Cardinals against Lord God Sabaoth and His Army of Angels and his saints.
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Cf. The following link: The WAR: The earthly city, mystery Babylon vs. the heavenly city, Jerusalem
The Cardinal’s thinking on the number of Cardinals with the Pope may be a bit of wishful thinking on his part. Certainly there are Cardinals who have grave reservations about the Pope and his actions but are too afraid or timid to show their hand. We’ll see.
“The Church wants to be open to all sensibilities [sic]. The pope says
that we should walk together and that we should not exclude anyone. […]
If someone wants to cut himself off, that is another case.”
That is nothing but ‘think what you want just don’t disagree with the pope’ condescending arrogance to the extreme.
If the Pope is so calm and at ease, why does this Cardinal have to speak for him, why isn’t he being humble and want to bring unity? Why is the pope hiding? Sending out his attack dogs and having these people speak to the press instead of personally talking to the four Cardinals. Such an obvious ruse. God help us!
I suspect there are many more who are “with” the four Cardinals that are waiting and watching.
Now they have the example of the brave 4 for them to wait and watch no longer.
Now is the time to put up or shut up.
Please see my above post re The Ottaviani Intervention. TY.
Please see my post re The Ottaviani Intervention above. TY.
I think you mean ruse.
Ruse: trick, strategem, maneuver, artifice, feint
Rouse: to awaken from sleep
Thanks I fixed it.
Francis has to make the appearance of being calm instead of boiling with rage.
The whole church before the modern era was with the Four Cardinals. Do they not count?
What a filthy rotten liar!
Not to be missed by anyone interested in this topic:
https://www.gloria.tv/video/Y1Zw4i8dXmHG4rZzn1ZVCLk1T
and
https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-see/dean-of-roman-rota-warns-pope-could-strip-dubia-cardinals-of-their-cardinalate
Fascinating.
Msgr. Pio Vito Pinto, the Dean of the Roman Rota, has made his bed and he shall lie in it, even when it begins to burn. He is encouraging oppression of the Faithful and encouraging people in adultery to remain in adultery and commit sacrilege. The Pope cannot reform Marriage, these men are benighted unto death.
These men are filled with unholy rage because they have been smoked out of their lairs and called out for their intentional deceptions. The 5 dubia expose the truth behind the lie, for they reveal for all who have eyes to see what these men really believe: and it isn’t Catholic.
The Four Cardinal’s (and whomever are with them) need to act with greater alacrity and holy boldness now that the enemies of the Faith are picking up the pace in their false accusations, condemnations and threats.
Sadly, some good men in the hierarchy are so blind by ecclesiastical propriety that they will think that the Four deserve to be stripped of the Cardinalate. When confronting the Holy Father one always needs to be deferential to his office, but that in itself does not negate the real need for confronting him publicly over the growing division within the Church, to which he himself is responsible for fomenting (though the split has been real for a long time.)
Pray that the good men who are sitting on the fence recognize the petty and uncharitable behavior of those defending Pope Francis, and the Pope’s own petty uncharitable behavior and choose to allow that to speak to their hearts about the Truth of the Matter and choose to side with that Truth.
Amen!
I think you would make a great bishop since you wish people to know the truth and follow it to salvation.
Good idea. Vox populi, Vox Dei. 😉
Time to get that bag of popcorn.
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Only 4 Cardinals? Really? What about the Cardinals and bishops who contributed to the books that were published in time for the second Synod on the Family. I believe there were at least 11 Cardinals there, and a few bishops as well. Add to those, the bishops of Alberta, Canada, who insisted on the Church’s perennial teaching with respect to the divorced and remarried. I think that Cardinal Hummes is trying to tell/sell us a lie. …but we shall soon see.
There is news (on Fr Z’s blog), that the pope will strip Cardinal Burke and others of the Cardinalate. … if that happens, I hope the number of Cardinals and bishops who stand with Cardinal Burke grows astronomically. In a way this is good. Everything will be out in the open. We will see the true wolves and the true shepherds.
Cardinal Pell makes 5 now (see the post by Fr. RP above).
I like the faux-scholastic distinction between “diversity” and “division.” Apparently it’s diversity when a liberal does it, but division when a traditionalist does it.
The loss of scholastic philosophy continues to have its ramifications, and this abuse of language is chief among them.
Yes the classic hypocrisy of a liberal.
Cardinal Pell comes out for the Truth and defends the four Cardinals:http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/some-catholics-are-unnerved-by-current-events-in-the-church-says-cardinal-pell/#.WD13cG99cJ4.twitter
this is why they have trying to undermine him for so long.
Cf. This link that follows: Cardinal Pell sees nothing wrong with the four cardinals’ questions to Pope Francis
I’ve been wondering where Cardinal Pell has been. He is a good man. After the recent attempt at lynching him in Australia there was no further report. Whatever his weaknesses, he would have made a solid Pope.
One of the few who vociferously opposed
Kasper’sPope Francis’ proposal. No wonder the attempted lynching.*
I have seen a debate of him with an aethist and this is one Prelate who is unashamed of his Faith even in the face of ridicule. Good man and God bless him for he knows what he has suffered for the sake of the Name.
One big benefit of this Dubia is that we see which prelates actually hold the Catholic faith. It will be a small minority of course. The outspoken modernists or those with silent complicity are also made clear. Get ready for schism. Get to know the priests who support the faith now so that you will be able to get the sacraments.
Unless the unity of the profession of the true Faith is present among a body of men, any other alleged divisions are artificial and non existent.
There is only schism when the men with whom one severs the bond of charity posess the unity of the profession of the Faith. One can’t be in schism with heretics if one professes the true Faith.
Catholics should not fear heretics in costumes, because they are not part of the Church.
Am I supposed to believe that the Pope is failing to answer the questions because of his humility?
Since when are numbers an indicator of the truth?
As St. Athanasius stated during the Arian Heresy “The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops.” Is it possible to extend this to Cardinals?
“Wrong is wrong if everyone’s wrong and right is right if no one’s right.”
“I want a Church that moves the world not one that moves with it.”
G.K. Chesterton
“The further a society strays from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it. ” George Orwell
Last time I checked Truth/Dogma/Doctrine infallibly defined does not change and is not subject to a “Vote”, “Pastoral Interpretation”, “Papal Opinion” “Subjective Opinion” etc. ……Since there are only 4 authentic cardinals in the College of Cardinals, the rest are impostors, heretics and apostates to be resisted, fought, ignored, called out and shamed. As such they are all free to choose going straight to hell led by the Pied Piper of Modernism, their Apostate in Charge, Cdl Jorge A Bergoglio aka Pope Francis, despoiler of the Chair of Peter.
The scholarly interjection, sic, is used whenever one is noting a misspelling in the text or a word used in an improper sense — NOT just because you disagree with what the person [sic!!!!] is alleging.