The focus is back on the Maltese bishops this week after it was revealed that in a meeting with the priests of his archdiocese, Archbishop Charles Scicluna had said that he had no choice in issuing the deeply controversial Maltese bishops guidelines on Amoris Laetitia, because in his conscience he could not oppose the wishes of Pope Francis.
The National Catholic Register‘s Rome Correspondent, Edward Pentin, reports:
At a meeting with Malta’s priests on Feb. 14, Archbishop Scicluna appealed for understanding, saying he had no choice in co-signing the guidelines. According to sources present, he said in conscience he could not go against the wishes of the Pope. He admitted it was a mistake not to consult the nation’s clergy on the Criteria before they were released, alluding to the fact that they wanted to be the first Bishops’ Conference to do so.
However, he also expressed “shock” at the fact that the C9 felt they had to pledge their allegiance of full support for the Pope. He asserted that to be Catholic, one is with the Pope. He also criticized the fact that people are questioning the Pope’s mercy. Such criticism came to a head earlier this month when 200 posters critical of what they viewed as unmerciful actions of the Holy Father appeared across Rome.
This same accounting of events was given to me by a source in Malta last week. The person then said:
So the logical conclusion is that they were told to issue those Guidelines from the very top.
My source then pointed me to a tweet from papal biographer Austen Ivereigh, who reiterated that the Maltese guidelines are according to the pope’s “authoritative” interpretation of the exhortation:
While Scicluna signaled his distaste that Catholics were questioning the pope’s “mercy,” my source said to me, “It has become unbearable here. We are living under the tyranny of mercy.”
We reported last month that strongarm tactics were alleged to have been used by Bishop Grech of Gozo to enforce compliance with the new guidelines. Pentin’s report gives evidence that the hard edge of the Dictatorship of Mercy is, in fact, being applied across the whole of Malta:
The Archbishop of Malta has confirmed to the Register that he told the country’s seminarians earlier this month that if any of them do not agree with Pope Francis, “the seminary gate is open,” implying they are free to leave.
Archbishop Charles Scicluna’s remarks are the latest in what Church sources in Malta say is a heavy-handed crackdown on any ecclesiastic unwilling to subscribe to the Maltese bishops’ interpretation of the apostolic exhortation, Amoris Laetitia — an interpretation the bishops say is identical to the Holy Father’s.
[…]
Since the Criteria were published Jan. 13, a number of clergy sources in Malta have contacted the Register alleging the bishops won’t tolerate any clergy having a different interpretation of Amoris Laetitia than the one presented in the Criteria among the clergy.
According to the sources, three priests are allegedly intimidating anyone who does not agree with the Criteria. The three had been opponents of the previous bishop, Archbishop Paul Cremona, but have now become the present bishops’ allies. One of them reputedly attacks any priest who shares critical stories on the Internet.
“This group of priests, with a few others, have been hogging the conversation for decades,” said a Maltese priest on condition of anonymity. “No one else seems to be allowed to contribute to the debate and they have done untold damage to bridge-building since they brook no opposition.”
He said they “fall on any dissent like a ton of bricks” and “no other priests are given any opportunity to contribute to the conversation” except for priests who are “like-minded.”
When he was appointed Archbishop of Malta in 2015, many of the island nation’s clergy were initially hopeful that Archbishop Scicluna would reset the theological and pastoral agenda, but now feel these priests have “hijacked” the local Church completely.
“There is a lot of discontent in the rank-and-file clergy, for they see that after holding so much promise, Scicluna’s episcopacy has become one of bullying and betrayal,” the priest said. [emphasis added]
What has become of my Church? The feastday of St. Peter Damian can’t come too soon.
These young men who are giving their very lives for Christ, in great joy and in great hope, are being snuffed out.
This is really too much to take. I can barely see the keyboard through the glaze from my eyes.
It seems as though begging is of no use. There just is not much to be done about it.
We must simply trust our Lord, our God and live one day at a time for Him, not knowing from one moment to the next the peril our dear priests will find themselves in, or the heretical words that will be spat from the mouths of bishops or cardinals to their vulnerable and foolish flock.
Where is our Peter?
“Where is our Peter?” Indeed.
Did this not happen in the seminaries after VII? Does it still happen today? Absolutely. Any sense of orthodoxy in most novus seminaries are extinguished. The only thing that is different is the envelope has been pushed a little further. Sadly, aside from divine intervention i dont see the Church correcting herself and pray that I’m wrong.
This is why they should take the next plane to Geneva, Switzerland, hie themselves to Econe, and join the SSPX so they can become good and holy priests. Then they can go back to Malta and start restoring all things in Christ.
Yes the SSPX should really begin a Mission in Malta without any delay.
The SSPX won’t enter a Bishop’s territory without faculties which NO Bishops won’t provide. Malta will be no different from any other Diocese n Europe. Even when they are allowed to celebrate Holy Mass (which is seldom) that is all they can do & move along. I talked to them about setting up here – a mission if ever they needed one – but that was their response. I tried all other Traditional Orders & they didn’t even reply, so much for their ‘missionary zeal’. Despite Summorum Pontificum no priest will go against the Bishop, even when the numbers who want TLM are sufficient to provide it on a weekly basis.
As their recent admonishment for those who carried out a poster campaign in Rome displays, their sight is on the Personal Prelature offered by PF & they aren’t gong to be drawn into any controversy. Since Christmas they have been very quiet in their critique of PF & Vatican. They are not going to rock the barque of PF so I don’t expect they are making any plans to rescue the Maltese.
Well isn’t that just lovely, the society planning to get nice and comfortable. Good ole SSPX, savior of anything traditional, right? I don’t attend SSPX or associate with sedevacantist groups; however, I’ve read about a so called “priest” Fr. Anthony Cekada and he may be on to something where he says (paraphrasing) that all traditionalist are on the path to become sedevacantist. Perhaps we have it all wrong, perhaps the question is who is correct, Christ or the Pope? And if we side with Christ and not the Church then don’t we border becoming sola-scriptura protestants? What a mess!
Corrected above as I had the Church without a spine and meant Francis. Though, he does have a spine and is quite strong, he is just wrong (in my opinion).
Perhaps the seminarians should stay, until they are directly booted out by their archbishop.
Stay, proclaims the Gospel of our Lord, not in defiance, but in purity of Truth.
Let the Archbishop directly remove the faithful seminarian/ priest as the faithful servants refutes the anti-Gospel and proclaims the Gospel.
Let it be shown.
Any one ever read book called AA-1025,
stands for Anti-Apostle #1025 , Diary of an Anti-Apostle / The Confession of Mikolaj, the Anti-Priest, means over 1025 AA have been infiltrated in the church, good read.
The best thing they can do is cut off his money at the next bishops annual appeal. Find an Eastern rite faithful RC congregation and join that and write to these liberals like McElroy and Malta fool AB and tell them why you did this.
“the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.” Our Lady of Akita in 1973
May God have mercy on us. Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
“And I brought you into a plentiful land
to enjoy its fruits and its good things.
But when you came in you defiled my land,
and made my heritage an abomination.
The priests did not say, ‘Where is the Lord?’
Those who handle the law did not know me;
the rulers transgressed against me;
the prophets prophesied by Ba′al,
and went after things that do not profit.
“Therefore I still contend with you,
says the Lord,
and with your children’s children I will contend.”
(Jeremiah 2,7-9)
Bergoglio is deliberately tearing the Church apart.
Of course, he would have nothing to work with if Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict had not appointed hundreds and hundreds of sodomite heretics to the episcopate.
For decades, the Americans have had the privilege of choosing their own successors. Result: multi-generational butt-boy chains. Cardinal Wright’s butt boy Donna Wuerl becomes a Cardinal. Wuerl’s butt boy Blase Cupich becomes a Cardinal. The American hierarchy at this moment is dotted with similar butt-boy “descendants” of Bernardin. And this process would have been impossible without the consent of Saint John Paul II and Benedict and Bergoglio.
Bergoglio, if his plans work out, will be the head of a “church” composed of the pro-abortion wing of the Catholic Church (Wuerl, McElroy, Cupich, Newark Tobin, Farrell, O’Malley, etc.), confederated with pro-abortion Protestants (in some manner that does not interfere with their autonomy). The new katholyk/protestant pro-abortion church will have control of the Vatican and major priceless properties around the world, especially in Europe and the Americas. It will be under the thumb of the U.N., E.U., Soros, etc.
Hi Arthur – He is the hired man earning his wage, 30 pieces of silver last time I heard. He labors toward one demonic purpose for which he was hired, the establishment of Catholi-Schism. He is committed to the world not the Word.
So is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. For quite a nominal figure these days 300K Stg. from the Free Masons he allowed them to stage a three hour long service in Canterbury Cathedral – the seat of St. Augustine. They are all acting together & have been for many years without any real opposition. We await Divine intervention as the only real solution.
Hi Ana – The Grace to remain faithful to Christ is the currency of the day. The world can trade in what it values.
I will be interested to hear what Father Gerald Murray has to say about all of this. He is part of the “papal posse” that appears on the “World Over Live” program on EWTN(also know as the vehicle through which Raymond Arroyo hawks his books program) occasionally. He is a staunch opponent of Francis’ attempts to undermine the Sacraments, and the very Words of Christ. I trust his judgment, and await the day he acknowledges that Catholics, in good conscience not only can oppose the “wishes’ of this pope, but must. Being more Catholic than Francis will be the true test of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.
We had better HOPE to be more Catholic than the current ‘Pope’!! Anyone who is NOT is in BIG TROUBLE!!
Hi st – I pointed that out to a friend of mine at Easter Mass last year and that was the end of that friendship. I must have been talking a little too loudly, because our pastor came over and asked if there was a problem. Oh brother. What sparked off the discussion with my friend was his inability to accept that homosexuals pervert human sexuality and that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil, these are the issues which divide the faithful from the unfaithful. He was a good friend of mine, and I miss him, but it taught me that there will be a price to be paid to remain a faithful catholic.
Remark of these times is: How more so-called friends leaves you, how more certainty that you are staying a faithful Catholic.
And…, don’t forget the ones who belongs even to your own closest family.
Hi Ivan – We can expect nothing less. Teach your children well, because if you don’t, they might choose the world over your well being when the time of greatest consequence arises.
The question now is…
Can anyone be LESS Catholic than the Pope?
I agree.
Murray is a canary in the mineshaft. He and Arroyo and Royal are good indicators of what many priests and bishops must be thinking.
Hi RTHEVR – I have a feeling it will come down to the bishops, the Bishops faithful to Jesus will have dioceses that will remain faithful to Jesus, the Bishops faithful to Francis will be dioceses unfaithful to Jesus. We might have to drive a little bit to find a faithful dioceses, but it will be well worth the drive, and I have a feeling those dioceses will thrive both spiritually and financially, while the apostate dioceses will struggle and argue among themselves in the same way the protestants have. Sounds like Divine Justice to me. In a way it will be the history of heresy repeating itself
And what if you are in the middle of the Argentinian Patagonia? Should I drive 2000 km or more? O maybe get out of my country?
Hi Gabriela – God will provide, just as He has for all in the past who find themselves exiled from the Church. What is the population density of Argentinian Patagonia?
Thank you for your kind reply, fniper. As we may understand, Argentinian bishops are 99% bergoglian (being generous), which is a further disgrace that we have upon us.
To find a faithful diocese is almost imposible. The SSPX doesn´t exist in Patagonia, and even in more populated regions its presence is rare.The population density in Patagonia depends on the province (there are several Patagonian provinces) but on average, is 1 person/ km2, or less.
I have heard of this order Milites Christi in Argentina. Are you familiar with it?
I believe the order started in Argentina 20 years or so ago.
No, I’ve never heard about them.
Gabriela, I suggest you to do everything you can to find them.
Militia Jesus Christ (MJC) was founded in 1209, influenced by St. Dominic and the Dominican friars.
They were the real defenders of the one Christian Faith.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zmilchristi.htm
Have you heard of the order of Miles Christi order founded in Argentina?
Miles Christi is a Catholic Religious Order formed of Priests and Brothers, founded in Argentina in 1994, dedicated to the preaching of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola. They were invited to the United States by Fr. John Hardon, S.J., and were first established in Michigan in October 2000, the Jubilee Year. The Congregation currently has houses in the Archdiocese of Detroit and the Diocese of San Diego, and several religious houses in its country of origin, Argentina, in the Archdioceses of La Plata and the Mercedes-Luján, and the Diocese of San Luis. They are also active in Rome and in the Archdiocese of Guadalajara, Mexico.[1]
cs, I see now, that one is a different one. But we are on the same line, I believe.
Thank you.
BTW – you posted a little gem to me a couple of weeks with the line, ” ….my little heart, my little Catholic heart….” It was truly a grace for me.
You may want to do so some research on the order and see what you think.
Not certain if they are near you or not.
I did it right now! They are more than 1000 km away from my city … 🙁
Gabriela, don’t give it up!
I have regularly contact with my friars via skype, and they are even more than 1000km away from me.
This order of priests mission is to sanctify the laity. They are traditional men who do spiritual retreats, Mass, etc. Would you be able to contact them and see if they would travel closer to you? They offer weekend Ignatius retreats and seem rock solid.
Good luck and God bless. God will lead you. Don’t give up.
Fr. Murray has already made this clear.
Hi Arthur – As more happens from the time of his last appearance, the more I look forward to how he addresses those new issues. I agree Father Murray is very clear, and credible when he speaks, and a trust worthy defender of the Faith, and that is why I look forward to his every appearance on the program. Father Murray seems to have particular insight into what is occurring in Malta, and it will be interesting to hear how he deals with the USCCB if they end up aligning themselves with Francis.
The USCCB, in “Catholics in Political Life,” say that a bishop may “legitimately” give Communion to pro-aborts. That is a mortal sin, as are all violations of canon 915. Thus, the horse has already been stolen. The USCCB has already come down on the wrong side, in favor of sacrilegious Communion.
Hi Arthur – That is very damning, and I wonder if Father Murray has commented on this issue. And although this is a grave matter, I think it will be of a different order of magnitude if or when the USCCB endorses the understanding of Francis that directly contradicts the Words of Christ and the unchanging teaching based on those Words. That will be the moment that the Conference will be torn asunder, and the Good Shepherds will have no choice but to oppose any and all of the successors of the Apostles who are leading souls into hell. I have concern about my Bishop, but I am hopeful that enough Bishops will raise their voices against this heresy to carry the day. That might be wishful thinking, but at least we will know the fidelity of each Bishop – no more hiding behind the anonymity of being a member of a conference and all the false sense of fraternity that has engendered over these many years.
NO discrimination of GOOD and EVIL! They have a different Christ.
We keep making the mistake of treating PF as if he were a Catholic Pope – he isn’t a true pope, as no true Pope/Cardinal/Bishop would or could by strong-armed tactics compel anyone to sin & sin gravely. The incumbent of the Seat of Peter is an imposter put there by the Marxist/Masonic/Modernist Sankt Gallen Group (Mafia) in alliance with the NWO led by George Soros. A true Pope would uphold the precepts of the CC & lead the fight against such an alliance instead of working with them. We are living in the End Times (however long that may play out) & we just have to accept that. Nothing is as it should & used to be. These imposters must be ejected as they are not there by Christ’s Will. More posters ridiculing this pontificate are badly needed, even if the SSPX doesn’t agree with them. The four Cardinals should at this stage have something concrete to tell us about the formal correction. These are dire times & we need firm leadership to see us through them.
delete
But unfortunately, until the contrary can be proved (probably never), Francis IS the pope.
Yes, unfortunately. You are correct in this Gabriela.
PF-pope francis, FP-false prophet
FPF seems to be a clear abbreviation.
Also, we should think about the ‘collective punishment’.
Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians were executors of the collective punishment which God’s people in earlier times have deserved. We know that such penalties ensued when the majority of priests as of the people for a longer time have turned their back to God.
See whole 4th chapter of prophet Hosea about universal depravity.
Just to mention these words of our GOD the Lord:
“Yet let no one contend,
and let none accuse,
for with you is my contention, O priest.
You shall stumble by day,
the prophet also shall stumble with you by night;
and I will destroy your mother.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
The more they increased,
the more they sinned against me;
I will change their glory into shame.
They feed on the sin of my people;
they are greedy for their iniquity.
And it shall be like people, like priest;
I will punish them for their ways,
and requite them for their deeds.
They shall eat, but not be satisfied;
they shall play the harlot, but not multiply;
because they have forsaken the Lord
to cherish harlotry.”
“But my people did not listen to my voice;
Israel would have none of me.
So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts,
to follow their own counsels.”
(Psalm 81,11-12)
The Heirs of the Assyrians and Philistines are presently flooding Europe and then the world. With you I remind us all God keeps His promises
Absolutely true. For the life of me I don’t know why we view his Papacy as legitimate. Members of the Sankt Gallen’s group have freely admitted they placed him on Peter’s throne.
This isn’t complicated: we view his papacy as legitimate because the Universal Church tells us that it is legitimate. There is no credible person within the hierarchy of the Church saying that we should believe otherwise. An imperfect council has not been called. Even the most staunch opponents of what is happening in AL among the episcopacy are not saying that Francis is an Antipope. In fact I asked this to Bishop Schneider, arguably the most outspoken prelate in the world on these issues, and his response was emphatic:
Taken from: https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/bishop-schneider-offers-hope-amidst-crisis-permitted-by-divine-providence/
This should be interesting to follow:
“Conference on the Canonical Problem of the Deposition of Popes to be Held in Paris”
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/conference-on-canonical-problem-of.html#sthash.Ed3DYxRz.UPZMGQ0Q.dpuf
Infallibility comes with responsibilities. A true pope must uphold the True Faith, i.e. Scriptures, Magisterium, Tradition, Doctrine etc. of Christ’s Church which he founded on the First Apostles. If he doesn’t do this but actually teaches against God’s Word, the Ten Commandments, Liturgy (changes coming), opening the priesthood to women, etc. he cannot claim to have the rudiments necessary to hold the Papal Office. & must be leaned on to quit, whether Canon Law recognises him as pope or not. He can resign as PB did & this must happen soon. The CC is in a shambles & there is plenty of evidence that he was not a fit candidate for the Seat of Peter as he was already involved in Marxist/Liberalism in Argentina. His history there should have been enough to prevent him from attaining the Papacy. No true pope would sanction strong-armed tactics against his priests to sin & sin gravely, as has happened in Malta. No true pope would surround himself with infidels & use vile language against Traditional Catholic journalists. Bishop Schneider said in a recent interview that “Catholics do not owe blind obedience to the Pope, adding that blind obedience is characteristic of a ‘dictatorship,’ not the Church”.
The four Cardinals would hardly have issued the Dubia without having studied the expected fall-out. Cardinal Burke said if the Dubia got no response they would issue a formal correction for which there is a precedent & if that weren’t answered an Imperfect Council. No-one has to obey bad law & especially if that law could lead to the loss of one’s eternal salvation. Truth must win in the end. We need to be told if the formal correction has been made & if the next step is in the pipeline.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t go. I’m saying it’s not our place to say he’s already gone. What Catholicism has that no other religion does is a Magisterium. Authority. Process. Law. We are the sons of an orderly God, and His is an orderly Church.
We cannot afford to make these determinations on our own. Even if we could do so, the precedent it would set would be tremendously dangerous.
These are not normal circumstances. St. Paul (2Cor 13:8 “We cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth). The present incumbent is not teaching the Truth. He must go. I wish we could say he was ‘gone’ but unfortunately we have to travel the road of protocol. His personal history prior to his very questionable election should have exposed him for what he has turned out to be. It is now essential that protocol be accelerated to allow for an Imperfect Council & for the laity et al to be told not to follow him. In that way no-one has to comply with AL or any other document thrown together by mouthpieces to the satisfaction of the NWO agenda financed by George Soros.
Again, I don’t disagree with your basic observations of the state of affairs. I also don’t deny the curious facts surrounding his election. But in reading JPII’s law on pope-lobbying, I see excommunication for the lobbiests…but no invalidity assigned to the lobbied pope. And even if there were…we could not assess it as true unless the case is settled by the relevant authorities.
Truly this is all mysterious and wondrous.
For myself, emotionally-speaking, I’d have had my boot up Pope JPII’s butt the moment he bowed to a Koran. And going back, my emotional opinion would shadow doubt on quite a few other Popes in past history vis a vis their actions, going back to the first Pope who was called SATAN by Christ Himself! But I am not the authority. If I was, I’d be Pastor Rod of the First Community Church of Sanctified Pope-Judgers, the Church of ONE…ME. Just like Luther was…
God’s ways are mystifying and mysterious. His ways are, let’s face it…frustrating to the human mind.
But as a convert who has seen worse of this sort of thing from the outside in the Protestant world, I can tell you that I’d rather have this mess than that mess. The way I’ve come to this “decision” is study of the teachings of the Catholic faith NOT about Popes, but about salvation, and God’s plan and will and social teaching and the works. When I REALLY get fed up with this Pope and the faggoty ministrations of his allies and silent partners among the vested class, I have a talk with my son-in-law and see all the TRUTH that comes from the Catholic faith overall, how much the Catholic doctrines and Biblical theology demolish Protestant heresies and how much joy and strength there is in LIVING what is taught in our faith.
In the end, Bergoglio is God’s responsibility, not mine. When I stand before Jesus in judgment, He isn’t going to be asking me if I ousted the Pope, but He WILL be asking me why I left Him and the faith He died to give me if I chuck it over a lousy Pope.
The hardest trail leads to the highest peak.
PB has abandoned us & PF has already left us – he doesn’t pretend to like the CC & most of all Traditional Catholics. It is now a question of putting him behind us. The four Cardinals started that ball rolling, now they must pursue it until it stops. We cannot have a splintered Church – one Traditional the other NWO, for that is where we are at present. Bishops Conferences are being allowed to decide matters for themselves – what they will allow & what they won’t. That is Relativism & isn’t in keeping with the Magisterium or Tradition of the CC. When he said “It is not to be excluded that I will enter history as the one who split the Catholic Church.” he certainly didn’t show any sorrow or shame. It just didn’t bother him if there was to be a schism over his handling of the highest position & honour of the CC.
We are not the ones turning our backs on Christ & leaving Him. PF must either accept the correction or be seen as one not to be followed. There simply is no other way to view the present situation.
One million upvotes.
Ana, you have to stop and look at when this ball started rolling. Really, we’re looking at November (yes, PF got the dubia in September, but we had no idea). It’s February. It’s been 3 months. The Church notoriously moves very slowly. 2016 was a rollercoaster year. AL hasn’t even been released for a year yet. That comes in April. I know you’ve been suffering without daily Mass, without faithful priests, with atrocious abuse and no shepherd for a long time. I can’t imagine how hard that is. I really can’t and I don’t pretend to. But we’re all called to the same thing. Being beyond angry all the time isn’t good for you or for anyone. We all need to find our peace who is Jesus Christ. HE is the head of our church, not Bergoglio. He is our hope, not the “four cardinals” or an imperfect council or anything else. Jesus Christ is, to whom we have access through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Don’t lose sight of our ultimate goal. It’s heaven. Not peace on earth.
That’s right. Christ is our Head, not Popes or the Big Four.
As for it all being so long a time, c’mon, it’s Italy for crying out loud.
I bet when Frank decides to commision a Roman seamstress to make him a custom-embroidered, extra-large Hammer-and-Sickle flag to hang on the Porto del Bellini, he’ll have to wait a lot longer than three months!!
Wrong on all accounts about JPII’s UDG. He specifically laid out that ANY actions on the part of any of the cardinal electors to lobby or coerce the vote makes the election invalid and confers no right upon the one elected. This is the “Fourth Rail” of Vatican politics that not one cardinal wants to broach. Again, none of this talk about whether or not Bergoglio’s election was valid or invalid touches not one bit on the Church’s Indefectibility or Infallibility. No one seems to understand any of this. JPII clearly knew of the enemies inside the ecclesiastical circle. Unfortunately, neither JPII nor Benedict chose to effectively weed out these devils in sheep’s clothing. Now we have bishop against bishop, cardinal against cardinal, etc. And, absolutely no clarity from the man wearing white. Simply astounding. Can we have a Catholic Church without a pope? Yes. It is called the interrogum.
From Universi Dominici Gregis:
No where does it say the election is invalid.
Exactly. By the way, Al is taking a break thanks to yet another Francis is an apostate heretic post, which he has been warned about.
Thanks Brian! I was getting close 🙂
I just want to take a moment here to thank our volunteer moderators. It’s a thankless job, they didn’t ask for it (I asked them), and it’s hard to make the call on a lot of these comments.
We have a comment policy for a reason. The type of issues we’re faced with risk bringing out the worst in all of us. Authority matters. Ask any exorcist about how even the vilest forces of hell respond to a priest who has been given faculties from his bishop — and it needn’t even be a good bishop. God created an ordered universe. We fight back against the disorder in the Church not by usurping those who have the authority and purview to make decisions and determinations we can’t, but by being docile even when we don’t understand why they won’t do more.
We may certainly advocate change, or more aggressive action, but ultimately it’s important to remember the monarchical, hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church.
I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again: this is a papacy that will almost certainly be condemned, if not invalidated, by future generations of Magisterial authorities. Honorius doesn’t hold a candle to Francis. But whatever our suspicions, we have to wait until we arrive at that moment.
Hundreds of folks comment here, but thousands are reading. Be very wary of leading those who lack the confidence to speak up, or are visiting just to learn, astray by the use of rash judgment. It’s a real danger, and one I won’t be a party to.
Yup. Knocked me for a loop when I first read it a while back.
Jafin — you missed the boat. You should have started with the two Universi Dominici Gregis paragraphs that immediately precede the paragraphs you quote:
76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.
77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.
Paragraph 76 references the conditions you cite; paragraph 77 emphasizes that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff.
Those paragraphs are part of the preceding section, “The Election Procedure” and are thus referring to all of the provisions in the section in which they are included. If the election does not take place according to the procedures as outlined then the election is invalid. No one would buy your argument in any court of law, ecclesial or otherwise. The form of the document is just as important as the specific words in it.
Secondly, it seems you are suggesting some sort of neo-sedevacantism. Such assertions are against our comment policy.
https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/comment-policy/
Al, Jafin has below cited the document.
Thanks, Jafin.
I confess…some time ago I read it with the intent to find the enforcement clause pertaining to the invalidity of a resultant Pope and I was STUNNED to find nothing of the sort. It is the reason a while back I gave up on the document. I work with contracts all the time, and one of the most common weaknesses, a weakness that in effect makes many contracts useless, is the lack of an enforcement clause. This is similar.
This thing of JPII says NOTHING about the resultant Pope.
In many ways it is similar to fornication that results in pregnancy. The fornicators are guilty but the resultant child is not.
What is MADDENING is that UNLIKE fornicators and babies, the resultant Pope could very well have been a conspirator as well, and he walks free. He might be a bastard of sorts, but he’s still…Pope!
If the resultant pope had been a conspirator himself, would he not have already been excommunicated by his actions and thus be unable to legitimately hold office?
That’s the problem as I read the law. Once he is POPE, no one may judge him. I get your point, as you are saying he would already have been excomm’d and then would be no Pope, but….the law does not explicitly say this or make it clear. So we are back to square one, a man serving as Pope remains, with no one to judge him.
I admit it is a case that would be interesting to test, but how? My hunch is we would need a POPE to clarify the law, but in the absence of that it is hard to see your interpretation going anywhere.
IIRC, there is also a law that states that if a man is a heretic before being elected Pope, he cannot be Pope. Well, what if it is found out, let’s pretend, with TOTAL clarity {say, a sworn, witnessed document} a man serving as Pope affirmed an heresy before his election. Who is going to judge THAT? It is, again, a conundrum. Not saying COULDN’T be done, but I AM saying there is no such thing as “Judge Ann Barnhardt” to do it. At the very least, the College of Cardinals would have to do it and can you imagine THAT happening?
The only nullifying condition I can see that might eliminate a Pope would be gender, that is, if a Pope was elected and it was found out after the fact that he was a she, and that could be attested by examination, but, due to past historical situations, I believe that is verified before elections.
Obviously, I’m not a canon lawyer, but I just do not see many/any ways a Pope who was elected could be removed from office. What I do know for certain is, neither you nor I have the faculties nor position to do so. Period. End of statement. We may have personal observation. We may have hunches. We may have an opinion. But we do NOT have authority. Neither does Ann.
The sticky thing about authority is it only matters when there is a dispute. When things are going smoothly and everybody agrees with everybody, authority is a nice, needless word that makes everybody feel warm and cozy. But when a difficult issue arises, and someone needs to make a decision, well, that’s the ONLY time when authority actually means something. And that’s exactly when folks start bucking it.
The “Ann Barnhardt Theory” reminds me of all the Evangelical women who proclaim at the Sunday School Class with brassy voices that their husband is the “head of the household” but when it comes time to plan the summer vacation and Wifey says she wants to go see her mother and Hubby says he and the kids want to go camping, you can put all your dough on the family spending a week’s worth of quality time with the grandparents.
We have begged and prayed for an end to this chaos, for a formal/public correction.
That is all we can do as laity.
If Cardinal Burke believes no good will come of it, then so be it.
Between you and me, ‘ i don’t follow him.’ How could any faithful Catholic?
But I will respect the papacy and turn a blind eye to him, and patiently wait upon our Lord.
Such a loss we are all experiencing in our Church. Such a loss!
Things have not been normal since Vatican II – in particular since Dei Verbum, in which our Infinite God was impolitely told (in between the lines) to ‘be quiet’ and ‘we’ve heard enough from you’. A [read protestant-inspired] document which plunged all Dogma into a kind of twilight grey zone.
As a result Deism, Protestantism and all kinds of Modernist confusion currently thrive at the Vatican.
If the leaders of the Catholic Church refuse to roll back the errors of the recent past, then Christ will do it Himself – in a way which will rock the earth [read literally] at it’s very foundations. I recommend to any young person who likes Geography and Geology to take up further study with a view to becoming a Cartographer or a Hydrographer. Their services are going to be in high demand in the not too distant future.
Steve,
was not the st. Catharine of Siena who made determination on her own, about THE question who the real Pope is, and why should he go back to the Holy Seat in Rome? Just for the record, st. Catherine of Siena was ‘nothing more’ but a L.O.P.
Another question is: What we than can do? Except praying and fasting and doing penance.
What we all very soon shall be able to do only in the catacombs.
An Ecumenical Council determined who the real pope was… or rather, it asked the two seeming claimants to resign (and they did) then called a Conclave and elected a new pope. St. Catherine of Sienna then went to the new Pope and told him to get back to Rome because that’s where he belongs.
What can we do? Exactly what you said, pray, fast, do penance. Also, learn the faith as it has always been taught, and then live that faith in your daily life. Imagine what your particular judgement would be like if you didn’t live it out. Would the excuse of “Well the pope was being dumb and I didn’t know how to do that?” really fly with Almighty God? Be a Catholic. Live like a Catholic. As Bishop Schneider said in his interview with Steve awhile back (quoted above), there were periods of time without a pope. What did Catholics do during the Great Western Schism or the Borgia popes? They lived like Catholics. Or they didn’t make it. So pray, fast, do penance, learn the faith, live the faith, be a saint. All the things a Catholic has to do in good times, they have to do in bad times.
Jafin, I can imagine that you think, but I don’t know why you think I do not live a life as a Catholic.
You forgot to say what a Catholic should also do: preach the Gospel, defend the Truth, faith the good fight.
“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Take your share of suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 2,1-3)
Now, how can you entrust the true Gospel to other faithful men, if the the apostle no.1. of these days, who is the 266th from the first one named Kefa, today preach some gospel which is diametrically opposite to the TRUE GOSPEL?
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply you don’t live as a Catholic. I’m truly sorry you took that as my meaning.
You asked what to do. I said, to the best of my knowledge, what it is we need to do. It was intended to encourage you to continue living a Catholic life, since you are already doing so. That is all. My apologies for any other meaning.
For sure we need to defend the faith. Agreed. As for making courageous Christians out of Bishops, that’s above our combined pay grades but we can at least encourage them along that direction.
We are basically on the same side. No doubt about that.
But, while one will ‘work’ under the current law, another stick to the ancient law which was unchangeable trough the centuries. Until a few decades ago. Before was anathema for them who goes into one or another place of worship where infidels are babbling to their pagan gods. Today, think someone is that just fine. Even better to do so, instead calling infidels to convert to the only true Faith, which is from only true God, who has established the only true Church, the Catholic Church.
Don’t we see, how some of us have already ‘accepted’ too much of evil, that some of us are not more capable to see the TRUTH which is always same. And will always be the same. Unchangeable.
As example, if God Himself says that adultery and sodomy is a grave sin, than why we should just disgruntle mumbling, but actually quietly be witnesses and even supporters of those who scandalize and blasphemes our Church, God’s law and God Himself?
Are we not called by HIM to do anything to stop all that madness as soon as possible?
So, to say it with this language, ‘who am I to not judge’, I will not say he is a heretic, because only God knows all the deepest of every human being, but I know because I see and hear that he is doing more than one (hundreds) heretical deeds. Not he alone, but many other shepherds as well.
We can say ‘bishop against bishop’, but this not just a football game. This must be called with a right words.
This is Christ against Belial. On whose side we are? It depends on what we really do. Now.
I think this is well said. Yes…the situation is a disaster.
But what I have had to swallow is a big heaping plate of reality…
Let’s assume Pope Francis declares himself {to make it really easy…} a heretic and an antipope. Let’s say the Swiss Guards throw him over the Wall and he’s out, gone, outta there.
So what…
Everything else remains.
The debacle that you describe is as you describe it, FAR worse and deeper than what can be blamed on one Pope.
So while many place great emphasis on Francis and his errors and outrageous behavior, it is in the end STILL the faithful who have to live the faith in truth, and THAT isn’t going to be a problem solved by the “firing” of a Pope.
Oh, this has been going on for over a hundred years – it hasn’t just happened with PF, but he is the person we now have to deal with. The Vatican & Episcopates worldwide need exorcising & all sodomites expelled. But that would have to commence with the outing of the present incumbent of the Papal Office.
I wonder. It may in fact work out just as you say, at the end of Beroglio’s life or who knows, with his deposition. The choice for me and my family remains to grow in Christ.
This thing has for me taken a turn recently when I began to reflect on the past and just how bad some Popes have been. For example, Take the multitude of wars over the centuries when Popes have taken this or that position. Were they always on the right side? Indeed, even during the 30 Year’s War Catholic fought Catholic and at times Catholic sikked Protestant on Catholic. Things were not “clear”. How much challenge would it be to think that your Pope was behind the burning of your home, the death of your livestock and the starvation of your children? I say that even as this Pope now shamelessly agitates for the destabilization of our nation and others with his support for the Marxist conference in California.
I keep going back to St Peter’s denial of Christ, his siding with the circumcision crowd and his being called Satan by Christ! Thomas doubted and St Paul is the only inspired writer in the entire Bible of whose words we are actually warned in the Bible itself in the caution we are given in 2 Peter!
Messy, messy, messy!
The serpent slows down the spread of the Gospel in the sins of Popes…and Bishops…and Priests…and faithful…and ME…
Something tells me the next conclave isn’t going to be the last conclave. As I reflect on it, whether that conclave is called as a result of the death of Francis or because he ousts himself by his own heresies is not my eternal concern even though it may be of great curiousity!
Burke said nothing about an imperfect council. That is simply our hope if Francis does not take the formal correction, provided it ever comes.
Also, your assertions that Francis is not the pope violate the comment policy here:
https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/comment-policy/
Please refrain from that topic in the future.
I said he wasn’t a true pope, i.e. in keeping to what the Papacy stands for & as we all know he has acted against the Truth & purposefully leading faithful Catholics astray. These are not ordinary times & mustn’t be confused with the normal administration of the CC which Canon Law was made out to deal with. Bishop Schneider warned against a mentality of radical relativism being created inside the Church that is threatening the Christian affirmation of absolute & eternal truths, which is contrary to Divine Revelation. “Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious act like religious.–Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, 1972”.
Don’t mince words. Saying he’s not a true pope is saying he’s not the pope. This is not a forum for those assertions. One way or another you will have to stop doing that here.
True in my language means rightfully answering to a description, authentic & meeting specifications. I don’t consider PF has shown himself to be true. Goodbye.
Have it your way.
He never said they would call in Imperfect Council, and certainly not in the language. He hinted that a heretic pope would need to be dealt with by the College of Cardinals. I know what you want, and what many of us want/expect regarding this, but we need to be careful when we’re referencing what another has said.
That said, I want to know if and when this formal correction has been or will be made. We need it.
That’s right, Steve. Until we know otherwise, and in spite of the disturbing questions involving HOW a Pope could do what this man it doing.
As another poster said a while back, “Nobody said The Great Apostasy was supposed to be comfortable”.
For me, the Barnhardt Theory just smacks of an effeminate response to a deeply disturbing reality. It relies on affectation, on feelings surrounding what is so uncomfortable a thought as to make one doubt what one sees…unless there is an explanation that takes the hurt away. It’s couched in terms of logic, but relies on a foundation of emotion.
It also downplays just how BAD a number of Popes have been in the past. Those who affirm the “Pope isn’t the Pope” deal are missing just how truly WRETCHED a few Popes have been in the past AND how much political intrigue has shadowed conclaves and Pope-selection in the past.
And we must take something to heart; Truly, in times like these, God is not just testing the hierarchy. Oh, it’s easy for us laymen to sit back and throw rocks at the weak, spineless, effeminate, sodomite-supporting, disgusting, vile, embarassing, hiding, miserable, prancy-dancing Bishops and Cardinals and say “See how messed up they are!!!”
But in reality, God is testing US. He is asking us to BE in relationship with HIM, yes, personally and intimately and truly. He has taken all the “crutches” of Catholicism away; the power, the glory, the world respect, the trustworthy leaders and models, in short, all the stuff that CAN be of assistance to the faith, but is unnecessary to the faith and like wealth and worldy success can be the source of WEAKENING of our faith when we begin to shift our trust to the “culture” of the faith instead of the person of our faith: Jesus Christ.
In truth, even if the Barnhardt Theory is correct, all of what I said is true anyway. WE, US, the faithful, are being tested. As Steve has said, even if it is true, we are not the one’s with the authority to declare it so. A priest I discussed this with said it this way: “We have to act as if Francis is a valide Pope…but in 40 years we might be informed differently by a subsequent Pope. WE cannot judge what appears to us as an invalid Pope, but a future Pope can.”
But we also cannot be forced to do evil just because a Pope tells us to. We must obey God, not a Pope…or an anti-Pope.
Now, what this Bergoglio Affair MIGHT do is adequately answer the debate between Bellarmine and Suarez as to whether a Pope can be a heretic…
For me, the Barnhardt Theory just smacks of an effeminate response to a deeply disturbing reality.
I agree with this. For all the reasons you said. Deciding that something we can’t puzzle out must mean that it can’t be valid is the easy way out. There’s a reason we’re being allowed to suffer through this, and this is when the rubber meets the road on the matter of our trust in God.
Agreed; logic is by nature dispassionate. Barnhardt’s is seething.
Spot on. I think a lot of people here need to pay attention to what the priest said to you.
I’ve been saying this same thing for awhile, but never quite as succinctly and clearly as this (I have an unfortunate propensity for longwindedness as many of you I’m sure have noticed). Until the church tells us otherwise, we have to accept what appear to be the facts.
You said: “I think a lot of people here need to pay attention to what the priest said to you.”
But WHICH priest we should listen to? As we know, there are some (our own) priests, who are saying things wherefore they should be a la minute excommunicated – by the Catholic CHURCH. In a normal time when the LAW of GOD was the law that was in effect for all the people. At least the Catholics. At least the clerics.
That requires discernment by a conscience properly formed according to the teachings of the Church. And leaves us in a funny place these days, where we can’t fully trust our pastors. It’s a grave injustice. But God will not abandon us if we remain faithful to Him.
That’s easy to say, for you and me, and some others. But we must try to help others who don’t know enough, or anything. Others who think they are in ‘safe hands’ now. Because of them we should keep talking loudly and clearly defending the truth and in the same time denouncing the falsehood.
True that.
Sorry, but I don’t think God would ever ask us to pretend – just to fulfill an extreme reading of Vatican I – that a non-pope, whether by invalid election or by self-invalidation because of heresy – is the real deal.
We don’t have 50 years. He’s destroying the Church and spiritually killing the faithful right here and now.
The Act of Faith is in the truths revealed by God, who can never deceive nor be deceived. In other words, neither God nor we can fake it.
There is something seriously wrong with Francis, and the only thing we have to decide is whether he was not validly elected in the first place, has forfeited his election because of heresy, or if he’s stark raving mad or afflicted by Alzheimer’s and needs to be removed.
“Effeminate” is not making a decision and leaving it to the grandchildren 50 years hence. But there won’t be any grandchildren if Francis has his way, so it won’t matter.
But God does ask us to trust the judgment of the Church, which as of now informs us that Francis is the pope. Assertions to the contrary are against the comment policy here:
https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/comment-policy/
Please abide or find another place to post.
Is the judgement of the Pope and that of the Church the same? The problem comes when the Pope and many Bishops claim to teach in the name of the Church and their teaching directly contradicts the prior magisterial teaching, and sometimes even Scripture, the Ten Conmandments, and the very words of Christ.
We don’t pretend. We act under the law as it stands. I hate to say it, but were this not so there are quite a number of past Popes that Catholic decency and common sense would have similarly demanded a rebellion to relegate them to the gutter.
You need to ask yourself just exactly what you are going to do about it. See?
I think most want the Pope to be a fake because their faith demands a righteous Pope. As an ex-Protestant, I got a head full of history about bad Popes, and some of it was actually true!! Sure comes in handy, now!!
As I have mentioned earlier, this episode is really drawing to a fine point what my faith is, and it is NOT in Popes. My salvation is not in Bishops and my eternal life and happiness is not in priests. It is ALL in Jesus and His teaching through the Church, a message I can pass on to my kids and grandkids, a message no one-lunged, pudgy, belligerent Marxist can take away from me no matter how hard he tries.
As far as “we don’t have 50 years” goes, I understand the sentitment 100%, but it is just that, sentiment. Truth is, we have as much time as God in His will decides to give us. Things looked pretty bleak from the end of the great work of the Maccabees to the coming of Christ and that was a bit more that 50…
Our salvation has never been in the popes, bishops, or anybody but Christ. That said, I’m not worried about decency – actually, Alexander VI was a great pope in terms of what he did for the Church, although his personal life may have been less than optimal (or he may have been seriously maligned by the Italian party, because he was a Spaniard and once the Italians married into the Borja family, his papacy became a bizarre focus of family and national politics).
What I’m going to do about it, as a perfectly powerless layperson, who is, furthermore, a woman – but has no interest in being a womyn and at the same time doesn’t want to drape herself in traddie hijabs – is simply say to everyone I meet that I don’t think Francis is a valid pope, for one of the three reasons I have listed, I’d personally support any more powerful person who wanted to take this on, and I think that all of the VII documents should be reviewed and several of them either seriously clarified or condemned, and we should begin again. I’m nobody and I can’t do much other than pray, support and speak as much as I can.
I’m worried about the destruction of souls. No valid successor of Peter could be doing these things. Even Andrea Gagliarducci, of MondayVatican, who was a devoted and then desperate supporter of Francis, now appears to be having serious concerns about Francis’ desire to attract the world and reject the faithful. Read his most recent article to get some very revealing comments from somebody who was once a devoted papolater.
“What I’m going to do… is simply say to everyone I meet that I don’t think Francis is a valid pope”
Fine, but you won’t do it here.
Dear Isobel,
As a Catholic, is not our duty to believe in Apostolic Succession? Yes.
Does that succession guarantee good popes? No.
And there just is simply not much to be done about it I am afraid, other than pray and all the other things you do for our Lord and His Church.
I see Francis in Peter’s Chair, as pope. Yet, he does not act like Peter. And that for me, is what is so maddening and so sorrowful.
I had hoped Cardinal Burke and the supportive cardinals would have issued the correction by now, and who knows, they still might.
I just don’t see Cardinal Burke doing anything less for our Lord, no matter what. But he will have to decide and we must trust this holy prelate.
He will not run, but simply do what the Lord asks of him and so must we.
Things are not right! We must go to the Crucified Christ. He will tell us what to do and how to live during these most difficult days.
Some do know, Steve. Pray for discernment here. Bishop Schneider, whom I consider a great prelate of the faith, is not correct in this understanding. I say this with all humility. In time, all will know.
No, some do not know. I know I harp on this like a broken record, but if due process in the Church has become meaningless, then the whole enterprise is bankrupt and should not be trusted. Either God gave authority to the pope and the successors of the apostles or He didn’t. So, barring some divine intervention here that’s truly, unquestionably from Him, we have to go by what the Church’s legitimate authorities tell us.
We cannot conclude, based on what we know, that Francis is not who the Church tells us he is. We may have suspicions, we may wonder (or even hope) if the Church will at some point depose or condemn him. We may certainly see that he is doing things that are incompatible with the Catholic faith. But this alone is not enough.
It is not humility to assert otherwise. It’s hubris. I understand that this is maddening for most of us, but God didn’t entrust the Church to us. We have to have faith that He will, through the means He provided, show us the way.
Some do know.
Don’t be a sophist:
Point taken. The term “legitimate” in retrospect was probably not the correct term. I think possibly invalid election might be a better term, used in reference to John Paul II’s law on lobbying and tampering with the election process. I realize it doesn’t invalidate the election, I am just wondering what part JB played in this whole scenario. I doubt very seriously if he was unaware of it. Actually, I went back and read Universi Dominici Gregis again and Jafin is right, it doesn’t say anything about the Pope NOT being Pope even if he was placed there under questionable circumstances.
Dear Mr. Skojec: I´m sorry because it´s not the point of the article, but I don´t know where else to ask this. If make a donation through your website, it is supposed to be a monthly contribution, or is just a single donation? I´m thinking of making a donation, but I can´t engage in a monthly contribution. Thank you!
Hi Gabriela. You will not have a recurring transaction unless you click the checkbox that says “Create Recurring Transaction?” on the checkout page.
I hope that helps. And thank you!
Steve,
To describe the controversy over AL as a chaotic shambles is unfair to the average garbage dump. So far, according to my score card, the schism between the two sides is:
Traditional understanding: Phoenix, Portsmouth(England), Poland, Costa Rica and Milan.
New understanding; Argentina, Archdiocese of Rome, Germany, Malta and San Diego.
We are reduced to tweets from Austen Ivereigh, one of the Pope’s biographers, to learn where the Holy Father stands?
Does this Bishop WANT to do this or is he spinelessy and merely trying to publicly pass the buck and pin the blame on Bergoglio?
Makes me wonder if he thinks he can evade responsibility for his actions.
“I only followed orders”.
You’d think Europeans would know better by now…
And so it begins. How much longer until bishops in the US and other western countries also tell their priests and seminarians to get on board…OR ELSE….
The situation in the Church is now untenable. Cardinal Burke and his fellow prelates must act NOW, not later, NOW.
The Catholic Church under this apostate pope is becoming almost Protestant by the second.
It is worse than becoming Protestant in my opinion.
I’ve been told not to use the words ‘true pope’. You are much braver.
The relevant part of the comment policy is this:
You can say that what Francis is doing is Anti-Christ. You can vent your frustration. But when you cross the line and start calling Francis an antipope or saying Benedict is the true pope is where the line get’s crossed. This is a faithful, Catholic publication. Many people visit this site and those watching and reading may or may not know what’s going on. We do not advocate for the extreme activism. We advocate for faithfulness. And so we reserve the right, when necessary, to limit what kind of discussion is allowed here, for the sake of the salvation of souls. We may be right or wrong, but we strive to be faithful, and we ask all who comment here to abide by that. Pax tecum.
It should be noted Al has been placed on a break for his statements about the “apostate, false” pope.
Hi Jafin,
I edited my post in response to Al. I thought apostate pope meant that while pope, he is preaching falsehoods against the faith.
I did not think it meant that PF was not pope.
I know. This thread has had a lot of crazy accusations various ways. Just trying to keep things in line. Thanks for posting and caring 🙂
We should not be leaving it to Cardinal Burke. Ours is a religion of activism,”Go out and tell the world”. Can we therefore leave it to others to do what God has specifically told us to do???
Do all that you can do according to your sacramental state in life. Everything else belongs to God. He will work all of this out. I wish I had more answers.
It’s according to a proper order. It’s up to prelates to decide matters at the top.
This quotation is being posted everywhere. It is not authentic.
Arthur,
Did you really done all possible research to be sure that this is not authentic?
Or do you just think that so?
It appears nowhere before the 19th century. Possibly the 18th.
Therefore can always be a ‘good’ reason. We know there are (and were) always the people who don’t like this kind of prophecy.
Your statement cannot be enough to claim it as not authentic.
I think now also about this: Are the apparition, but with all the messages of:
our Lady of Rue du Bac, Paris 1830., our Lady of Akita, Japan 1973., and our Lady of all Nations in Amsterdam from 1945. til 1959. authentic? Or that of our Lady of Fatima (namely the 3rd message)?
I think it’s one thing to say it’s “not authentic” (I.e., positively proven to be false in attribution) and another to say it hasn’t been proven to be authentic (i.e., questions remain as to its authenticity). The latter can be fairly said, but I don’t think the former can.
In any event, there’s no need of a Prophecy to know that PF is a Destroyer. We’re living it now. He who has eyes to see . . . .
It is as if St. Francis saw our time under Pope Francis and was giving a word to word account of our present time under Pope Francis. Wow! Jesus save your true Church from spiritually drowning as you once saved Peter, the first Pope from drowning in the stormy waters of the sea
To expel those seminarians out, even only the threat to do it, is the most unmerciful and antiChristic act; I think, in this case, it is an open diabolical act. It depicts an evil dictator in action; the extermination of the good seeds, lest they follow the true doctrine and proselityse.
The Third Siege of Malta is before us! The Maltese held out against the Turks in 1565 – and so protected the existence of the Catholic Faith. They held out against German bombing from 1940-1942 (being the most heavily bombed spot during the whole of WWII; and were awared Britain’s highest miltary honour, the Victoria Cross). Now, the enemy are within the walls of these islands once blessed by St. Paul’s presence. Like every people under siege they need the prayers and clandestine help of those outside. Their suffering is ours; and in our suffering with Christ we will be victorious. The battle before us is great; but the power behind us – God Himself – cannot be defeated. Viva Malta!
It was the George Cross
If I were a seminarian in this diocese, my first thought would to be, ” RUN”…..go to SSPX nearby, or forget priesthood altogether. But, that would be”my” first thought…..” What would Christ want of me, and what would He want me to do to protect His Bride, and guard the priesthood?”
Why would this archbishop directly give such an address; kindness to me and sparing me from the gruel of seminary under such conditions? i doubt that. Kindness is never attached to lies!
Courage. Perhaps these seminarians should stay, and continue until they are directly booted out for speaking the Truth? I have been praying for them and for many priests in such situations. COURAGE!
Those Maltese seminarians ought to make a beeline for that door while it remains open. Whoever adopts this attitude of obeying what this man dictates is in eternal danger. Brothers, listen to your hearts. Get quiet, pray for discernment, and listen to the Holy Spirit who will speak to your soul. Put your future in God’s sure hands and He will direct you. You will know that this “interpretation” is all wrong, despite who you believe it to be from. Anyone still confused need only read the Bull of Indiction “Misericordae Vultus” to recognize the errors coming out of Rome. Do not think it will get better. It will only get worse. Get out or plan to remain loyal to Jesus Christ, to Whom your loyalty as a priest is given to. You must remain Loyal to the Truth, Who is Jesus Christ the Lord.
“Brothers, listen to your hearts. Get quiet, pray for discernment, and listen to the Holy Spirit who will speak to your soul.”
Fine, but listen to the Church first. We’re Catholics, here. If you are hearing: “Francis is not the pope” you are obliged to wait for the Church’s judgment before determining that what you’re hearing is from the Holy Ghost.
Hi Brian – Is Pope Francis acting in a way that would compel you to call him the Vicar of Christ?
Who would make such an announcement? Bergoglio? The schism is here right now. Bishop opposing Bishop, Cardinal against Cardinal, as prophesied at Akita, Japan (Approved)
When he changes the Mass and the Eucharist is no longer the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ, will you then consider without the “Church” having to make an official announcement? This is exactly what the Prophet Daniel was shown. The Daily Sacrifice (the Holy Eucharist) will be abolished. This will be done from within by Bergoglio, and the saddest thing is that so many will not even so much as notice.
Who can be in any doubt that Pope Francis wants “Adulterers for Communion”? The reason why he hasn’t answered the Dubia, is because he is showing us his answer before our eyes. Crafty tatic. What is happening with the Bishops coming out with their “criteria” all over the place supporting what they call “the Pope’s interpretation“, is evidence of a blatant truth: that this really is the Pope’s interpretation. And the fact that we now have the “ Dictatorship of Mercy” defines for us what is happening. The Pope complains about “rigidity” etc., so he will basically force mercy on us, a mercy that is warped and twisted. Perhaps the Holy Father could show real mercy on the Church by removing baneful liturgy and heretical clerics. Perhaps stringing a few of those German bishops who claim that the German Church isn’t a branch of Rome [welcome to the New Lutheranism]. Perhaps slapping a Papal Interdict on the American bishops, or excommunicating some others. Instead, he allows the most degenerate people to waltz in to teach us their “Mercy”. The Fumes of Satan have almost choked the Church into Stockholm Syndrome.
I recall my former abbot returning from the General Chapter bragging proudly on how he was regarded by other abbots and abbesses as a “left wing brat.” That he was and rest assured, such narcissists know no shame. He left for “eternity” prematurely and left behind him a monastery that is not much more than a nursing home or a left wing retreat house, maze and all.
Men such as him, or the sycophants who consititute the episcopate of Malta are self-absorbed and blinded to the reality before them by an absence of common sense. They are responsible for incredible damage to persons and structures. They function without ears, and while sporting a backbone are consigned to skirt about on their bellies.
The priests and seminarians of Malta have an opportunity to make a courageous stand. There is nothing to lose. To serve Christ is to reign. The service of fraudulence is not an acceptable substitute for any man.
Charles Scicluna is a sycophant and careerist who would obey blindly any demand made by a superior. He showed this pattern of behaviour as a priest towards his then bishop, as a prosecutor under Benedict, and now as Bergoglio’s man in Malta. Being a compulsive yes man, he adopts this high handed manner with his underlings who are expected to say yes to him or else – hence the not so subtle vile threat to seminarians is utterly in character.
it’s in french but it’s worth it….
http://www.medias-presse.info/le-cure-de-groupe-pop-glorious-se-marie/69811/
The priests and the seminarians will be one set of problems for the Bishops of Malta. The laity will be another. There have been mass exoduses in Protestant denominations when these denominations adopted women clergy, pro-abortion stances, gay clergy and same sex marriage. How will the Catholic faithful respond to this?
Tomorrow is the feast of the Chair of St. Peter. Were it not, we would be celebrating the Wednesday in the Seventh Week in Ordinary Time and our Gospel reading would be Mark 9:38-40 which concludes with “For whoever is not against us is for us.”
There is appears a certain irony in that we won’t hear those words tomorrow but instead an admonition from Peter to presbyters, and from Christ to Peter to responsible exercise of his office.
I don’t suppose it’d cheer anyone up but if you can find the interviews with Fr. Malachi Martin by Bernard Janzen on Youtube (there are 7 of them) they would be very informative for those of you younger than ~65 years of age. Fr. Martin was close to the powers in Rome before, during and after the 2nd Vatican Council, and was one of the most relied upon authentic Catholic voices during the 1980-1998 years. Anyone much younger than 65 or so has no personal memory of the Roman Mass, crowded churches, and 5 priests to a parish. Nuns in habits teaching the Baltimore catechism – all the foundational things that have been taken. He can explain how it started and even prophesy at the time of his death in 1998, where it was likely to go. It wouldn’t be time wasted. Here’s the link for the first interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vCJIFnXhX0
Beyond that, I would heartily recommend a Holy Hour as often as possible, daily Mass, and the rosary; for your own peace of mind – Christ is in control of His Church.
Anyone willing to create posters for print here in the USA that would ask the bishops to defend Christ teaching? I know someone that may fund it.
Pending a response you could do something yourself, regardless of skill level, that would look quite professional…
Find an image you like in Google Images — https://images.google.com/
On the image search results page click on Tools, then Size, then Large.
Click on the image you like. Click the View image button. Then right-click on your mouse and select Save Image As to download it.
Send this image (or images) together with the wording of your poster to the man below (or similar)…
https://www.fiverr.com/only1amjad/do-amazing-business-flyer-poster-design
Take the print-ready jpeg (type of computer file) he provides, on a USB stick/thumb drive to your local print shop/photocopying service. Alternatively upload it to your Dropbox and share the link via email to local print shop/photocopying service.
Print out as many copies according to budget, taking into account postage costs.
I have been reading some of the exchanges below with great interest. I want to know what one does with one’s cognitive dissonance. The risk of a website such as this is that it opens Pandora’s box. Is it better to know or to not know? What then does one do with one’s knowledge? I can’t now unknow what I know. Yeah, I get it: pray the rosary, fast, read Holy Scripture, learn about one’s faith, practice the faith to the best of one’s ability, etc.
I feel as if I/ we are being gas lighted. I see what I see. I arrive at conclusions as a result of what I see. But I cannot (am not permitted to) speak those interpretations. I have not been to mass in a month. At the last mass I attended, the priest spoke at length with the utmost admiration and respect for the pope. We should emulate his holiness. This is a priest I like and respect. I walked out of the mass thinking I was losing my mind/ my sanity.
Why? Because it is crazy-making for me. I grew up in an alcoholic home. I could not say that or I risked being slapped hard across the face. What happened in the family stayed in the family. I go to mass and I find myself back in my childhood home. There is a heavy smell of alcohol on my father’s breath; he is acting inappropriate; I don’t want to get in the car with him, but I have to. My father can’t be drunk because he isn’t an alcoholic.
What do I trust? Whom do I trust? The homily basically told me that my perception of reality is not reality. The homily basically told me that I can’t trust my own lying eyes. The fruit I see from Francis’ tree is chaos and confusion, doubt and uncertainty, division and divisiveness. The side by side comparison of what Francis says and teaches does not match what Christ and Christ’s Church teaches.
What do I think of the priest who gave the homily? That he is being forced to give such homilies by his Bishop? That he is trying to normalize a difficult situation? That he has genuine admiration and respect and is totally unaware of any controversy in the church? That he is faithful and obedient and would never say anything negative? That he doesn’t want the parishioners to think anything is amiss or awry in the church?
It would be far more tolerable if nothing at all — positive or negative — were said about the pope. But that isn’t a reality. I cannot ask or expect that. All of the priests in my community and surrounding area at some point in time have given homilies that are similar to the one given by this priest. Do I get up and leave to go to the bathroom during the homily? An SSPX parish is six hours away. An FSSP parish is three hours away.
I have not been back to mass since. I should feel guilty. Actually, what I feel is relief. Yes, I know it is a mortal sin to deliberately miss mass. Given my background, what may be a mortal sin may instead be a venial sin. I don’t know; all I know is that I am a kid again and my father is drunk; but I am not in the car with him. I am safe. If he crashes the car and kills or seriously injures himself, I will cry and be sad. But I will live; I am safe.
So back to my original question: how does one handle the cognitive dissonance of the situation?
Susan,
I can’t stop thinking about your post above.
Am I out of line in saying – you have more power here than you know right now.
You do. Hopelessness and weakness is not your future.
You must move.
Closer to a traditional Latin Mass.
I don’t say that flippantly or lightly. Moving is not a flippant or light thing.
But you know the Real. You know what it is. Even where it is.
You have the power to go to it.
You do. I can tell.
Your sanity and soul are at stake.
And I and everyone reading your post above hear in your “voice” that you are a strong, honest and clear-thinking person.
You have it in you to evict the irrational. You know a lie when you see and hear it.
You have more control over this than you fear.
Move closer to a TLM. You cannot live without the Mass. None of us can.
You can do this.
Trust your Catholic heart and your sound mind. Holy Mass should be a balm to the soul, and that balm, 6 hours away, will do you more good twice a year than a weekly bout with insanity and cognitive dissonance.
I suggest you write a letter to your parish priest, stating why you disagree with his homily (you neglected to mention the reasons your priest gave for admiring the Pope). As for not attending Mass, it’s not worth the loss of your soul: if you think in good conscience that you can’t support this priest don’t give him your money (give your money to a priest you can support); but continue to assist at Mass and avail yourself of the sacraments. Your priest doesn’t invalidate his authority nor his power to administer the sacraments just because he myakes errors of judgement.
I won’t presume to know your pain, Susan, though your childhood sounds eerily like my own. I’ve been blessed with a husband who is true patriarch and access to the TLM for years. Those two things have made an enormous difference in my well-being. I focus away from the Holy Father and toward the devotions that keep me close to Christ and the doctrines of the Church.
That keeps the cognitive dissonance at bay for me. I know that the Church has survived bad popes before. She will again, so our obligation is to keep working out our own salvation – and assisting those around us – in fear and trembling.
I’m with you. I’m never stepping into another car with a drunk driver. It’s a miracle that you and I are alive, my friend. Our lives are gifts, then, that we must use for His glory. I can highly recommend every FSSP priest I’ve met. If you can’t get there, maybe call and ask for some spiritual guidance (I hate the phone, so I know this can be difficult).
I’ll pray for you, and I hope you’ll pray for me. I find our current culture, as well as what you’ve said so eloquently about the Church hierarchy, has many things in common with an alcoholic household. It can be crazy-making, but perhaps also puts us in an unique position to speak the truth.
Pax Christi, Jennifer
I read your post with great interest. On a practical level – and I’m not trying to be funny here – if I thought that the homily at my Sunday Mass was likely to cause me great spiritual turbulence, I would bring a set of earplugs with me and discreetly insert (and then remove) them at the appropriate time. At my previous parish, whilst orthodox i.e. no altar girls allowed, altar rails actually used at communion time, no “eucharistic ministers”, the not so Great Debate that used to break out immediately after the end of Mass was dispiriting to say the least. What did I do? Eventually, I had a brainwave and I brought along my earplugs to enable me to continue my thanksgiving after communion in relative peace. You may want to get some pairs in a neutral colour – mine were yellow so may have been noticeable but hey-ho, c’est la vie.
I would also fully support what Simon said in his response: Please do not give up going to Mass. Our Lord told St. Gertrude that “for the one who devoutly assists at Mass, I will send as many of My saints to comfort and protect him(/her) during the last moments of his(/her) life as there will have been Masses which he(/she) has heard well”. Let’s strive to ensure that particular heavenly cohort is well staffed!
The sense of urgency I have to respond to you does not make up for my inadequacy with words, or my inadequacy with ideas. Nevertheless I’ll make a stab at it.
Many of us are experiencing something akin to what you are, but I believe your personal history makes you very sensitive to our ecclesiastical family dysfunction — the denial of reality. When we can’t trust those in positions of ultimate trust we lose our footing.
For myself I have learned that the best men and women are not ultimately to be trusted for unvarnished truth. It is just not even in the best of us to be relied upon for such. That given, the normal street urchin which most of us most resemble is to be trusted even less. That is why when the timeless truth of Holy Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the perennial Magisterium of the Church becomes the object of men’s “home improvement” impulse, take a step back, conceal your knowing smile and wait for the ceiling to collapse.
Yes, I’m asking the impossible – eliciting the humor of it all. (I can’t believe I’m saying that. But I am, and there is some wisdom there.)
As furiously aggravating as the reality is, our pastors, very many of them, are in a state of uber-disorientation. Don’t expect much of many of them. They have poor theological formation and a emotional investment in believing their post-Conciliar education was adequate to the supernatural task that is theirs. The protestants are in even worse shape. We have our Blessed Lord, His gift of the Faith articulated in the Catechism (now we know why those of the left had a fit when it was published), we have the Sacraments, the Communion of Saints and most of all, best of all, the awareness of just how things are and a responsibility to shoulder this Cross with Him so that things might get better somewhat sooner. Maybe.
We have not yet been called to shed our blood, so let’s give what we can now. Life is brief, eternity is long. We stand on the door step of eternity but for a moment. There is no happiness here unless it is found in the will of God. The purpose of our temporal existence is to know, love and serve God in this world, and to be happy forever with Him in Heaven. To serve is to embrace His Will by lovingly conforming to His commandments and to love our neighbor as our self.
His Will itself is our only and deepest and joy and reward. Right now the Most Holy Trinity needs us to endure the Bergoglian Captivity. So we will for the greater Glory of God. But that doesn’t mean we pretend that what is happening isn’t happening. It is happening. It is an injustice and offense against God and man. Hang tight! It’s going to be a bumpy ride. But we are in our Father’s tight embrace.
And go to mass. Maybe find a monastery — it might not serve all your needs but it might be better than a parish. Go to mass. And go to confession. Don’t use it for a psychological consultation or consolation. List them out and receive absolution. Stay faithful to prayer. Use the psalms. The rosary. Spiritual reading — biographies of the saints can be very uplifting when we are down and feeling isolated.
I think you should still go to Mass on Sundays regardless. Think about it: if a homosexual predator priest came out and said Mass minutes after interfering with a boy the Consecration is still 100% valid. The strength of prayer to God could be weaker in that church overall due to its priest but your obligation is fulfilled simply by your attendance.
I have suffered similarly at Masses and in Confessions. It is a hideous cross.
Suggestions: perhaps you could treat yourself to an FSSP Mass once a month. Forgive.
I appreciate all of the comments. After I posted, I had second thoughts and I wondered if I should have written what I wrote. But I let it stand; there was a certain healing in speaking my truth. All of what has been unfolding in the Church has been deeply disturbing to me — maybe more so than for other people — and then I had the epiphany that I have a special sensitivity due to my background/childhood.
I am not laughing at the earplugs; I think it’s a great idea. I actually have some that are plug only (a little more discrete); they may not be the “right color” but honestly, I’m not sure I care. I love the idea of a special trip to an FSSP or SPPX parish at certain intervals. I don’t see myself clear to physically move or relocate; that would require a lot of prayer and very clear direction from the Holy Spirit.
I have experience with writing letters. I have experience with face to face meetings. I have experience with going to the Bishop. I have had as much success with these things as the authors at 1P5 have had getting answers to their questions (two recent articles on 1P5, one with respect to Father West and the other with respect to the directives regarding AL issued by the German Bishops).
It is not a matter of the validity of the sacraments; the consecration of the Eucharistic or the absolution given during Reconciliation. I understand what the Church teaches. The sins of the clergy do not negate the validity of the sacrament. I am thinking about it: if Judas had celebrated mass before he went and hung himself, I don’t know about you, but that would be one mass I would walk out of.
This is off-topic, but I don’t know where else to write it.
I’ve been a (small-time) financial supporter of 1P5 for a good while, and I greatly appreciate this site. At this point, though, the back-and-forth re/ Amoris Laetitia and its associated fallout seem to be the only issues that people want to discuss here. Of course, it’s crucial for 1P5 to keep us informed of what’s happening on that front.
Meanwhile, the Modesto, California meeting of the World Popular Movements is just one example of another critical, yet unreported, topic. Has anyone here read the outrageous statements presented there by Cardinal Turkson, Bishop McElroy, and Bishop Gomez? I would love to know the identities of the other bishops in attendance, and to read a transcript of any statements they may have given, as well.
PICO, one of the sponsors of this World Popular Movements/Vatican shindig, was mentioned in the Soros post, but there was no link given to Wikileaks’ release of John Podesta’s emails specifically naming PICO and Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good.
One website couldn’t possibly cover all the wounds our Church is suffering from both clergy and laymen within. But I hate to give Crux, the National Catholic Reporter, etc. any “clicks.” Please expand the content here as you can, and -yes, I will donate more often in hopes of making this possible.
Thanks for saying this. It’s tough. There really are a lot of things happening, and only so much time. The bulk of the writing here is done by a few people, though we feature essays by dozens of others. We’re in that tough place between growth without enough resources to do more and the next level. I will see what I can do this year to add more.
I do understand, and I very much appreciate your taking the time to reply. File my comment under “suggestion of a friend and true supporter.” I really can’t tell you how grateful I am for what you do here, and I mean that. Ingratiation and flattery are just…gross…but my comment is given with all the sincerity I have. (‘Constructive criticism’ included!)