Every time it seems that things can’t get weirder in the Catholic Church, they do.
As Oakes Spalding reported yesterday, rumors have been flying about major things happening behind the scenes in Rome. Among these rumors are several related to Cardinal Burke, some indicating that he had been “silenced”; others saying that he had begin cancelling scheduled engagements. Several days ago, I received word that a well-placed source had revealed that Cardinal Burke was being recalled to Rome to be sent immediately to Guam to deal with the deposition of a bishop there.
I want to stop for a moment to say something important on this topic: it is difficult to explain, to those accustomed to the fact-based reporting standards of Western Journalism, that intrigue and rumor are the primary vehicles of information transfer in the world’s oldest bureaucracy. Press conferences in Rome, when they happen (or when their principals bother to show up) are just the tiny tips of rather substantial icebergs. Everyone is always playing the long game at the Vatican. Politics, positioning, power-plays. I recently joked that if we didn’t report on Vatican rumors, there wouldn’t be anything about the Vatican to report on at all. (After all, we can’t even get a direct answer from the pope to the dubia. Trying to nail down solid information is like grasping at shadows.)
We are not, at this phase of our existence as a publication, a full-fledged news shop. We don’t have journalists we can send around the world to investigate stories, even if we could afford to. We rely on a number of international relationships, inside sources, existing reporting, and the like. We are given a great deal of information all the time by our contacts, and we have to sift through it for what we can ethically share. We try very hard to leave as much hearsay as possible on the cutting room floor, seeking out only the most credible information to pass on. Just this morning, in fact, I found myself turning down an extremely important piece of news given to me by someone trustworthy because I don’t want to report these things without a first-hand source. I have no interest in 1P5 becoming, essentially, a Vatican TMZ.
So when I heard about Cardinal Burke being shipped off to Guam, I had to sit on it, even though I was reasonably certain it was true.
A tribunal from the Vatican, which will be led by a cardinal, is scheduled to hold a secret hearing on Guam this week to speak to at least one of the victims accusing Archbishop Anthony Apuron of sexual abuse.
Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, a canon lawyer and former head of the Vatican’s supreme court, signed a decree on Feb. 3, 2017, requesting that one of Apuron’s accusers, Roland Sondia, appear personally before Burke later this week on Guam.
The cardinal wrote the decree “in fulfilling the office of judge.”
Sondia was being summoned “for the purpose of giving testimony” in the Apuron case, according to the decree.
A Vatican equivalent of prosecutor and an advocate for the accused will also hear the accuser’s testimony, according to the decree.
The Vatican case concerning Apuron had a protocol number that may indicate the case involving Apuron was opened in 2008, although it was unclear if the sex-abuse allegations were filed with the Vatican that early. The case is before a Vatican office that deals with “faith and morals.”
Burke further wrote that he will be talking to some of Apuron’s accusers after he was delegated by Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller, who leads the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Am I the only one who finds this incredibly suspicious?
Cardinal Burke’s official functions within the Church have been effectively reduced to zero. He is no longer at the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s high court. He has, to my knowledge, been removed from all the curial positions he previously held, including the Congregation for Bishops. He is still listed as the Cardinalis Patronus of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, but after Pope Francis effectively annexed the sovereign body, replaced its Grand Master with a figurehead, restored its most controversial member of the Sovereign Council, appointed a papal delegate who would take over relations between the Vatican and the Ordeer (previously the Cardinal Patron’s job), and saw to it that the forcibly-retired Grand Master placed blame on Cardinal Burke for the whole fiasco, it’s hard to imagine that his role there is anything but nominal from here on out.
So why Burke? And why Guam? I was unable to find a history for Cardinal Burke in dealing with such matters that would make him the logical designee. Does he have experience in this area? And if so, certainly, there are other places where such services are needed — places far less remote. Guam is 7,552 miles from Rome. The only countries further from Rome are Australia and New Zealand, and not by much. Guam is a Micronesian island in the South Pacific, an unincorporated U.S. territory with fewer than 200,000 people and a total land mass of 210 square miles. It is the home of several US military bases, the closest landmass to the Mariana Trench — the deepest known spot in the Ocean — and in an odd tidbit of Church history, the Jesuits were expelled from Guam in 1769 under Spanish law.
Was Burke sent by Müller on his own initiative, or by Müller at the pope’s request? If the former, was this to remove him from Rome for his own good? If the latter, is this a form of exile, like the shipping off of Archbishop Bugnini to be the pro-nuncio to Iran in 1976 after he became inconvenient, and suspected of being a Freemason? Is Burke’s work on the dubia gumming up the machine? Or will Burke only be there for a short time?
Rumors in Rome that something big is coming persist. Is the timing of this dispatch related? Is it an attempt to get him out of the way? Is this a move to break up the Four Cardinals by removing their de facto figurehead from Rome, where he has the greatest visibility and influence?
Unfortunately, at this point in time we have more questions than answers. But this is a story worth keeping an eye on, and we plan to do just that.
Maybe I’ll move to Guam.
Just upset the pope and he’ll arrange a one-way flight for you no problem.
How on earth is this supposed to work in the 21st century? Do they not have internet access in Guam?
As we’ve reported before, they really don’t get the Internet.
Hilarious. They should kill all the carrier pigeons on the island, to be doubly sure.
Pigeons or not Murray, don’t be surprised if Cardinal Burke would return to speak the Truth on an Italian shore after being spit out by Noah’s Whale.
There are undersea phone cables to Guam. And, presumably, trained Navy SEAL dolphins.
It appears from a brief Internet search the quality and price of Guam Internet are comparable to the US’s.
Guam doesn’t have many birds. Most of the birds on Guam were eaten by the brown snakes that were imported onto the island.
Few know this.
But I was being jocular. I have no idea about the Guam/bird nexus.
Understood. I was joking, too, although the bit about the birds/snakes is true. Brown snakes were imported into Guam, and they ate all the birds. I wouldn’t know that either, except for the fact that part of my extended family lives there. The brown snakes are all over the island. Maybe Cardinal Burke can get rid of them. After all, he’s Irish. Another Saint Patrick. Lol.
Who don’t “get” the internet? Is that get=receive or get=understand? And who? (I’m not being sarcastic, just really curious.)
The Vatican doesn’t get the Internet as a communications and social phenomenon. They are so accustomed to controlling the entire message, to having people believe them because they “say so”, to being able to shape the narrative with the official bodies of Vatican information, that they are entirely perplexed, bewildered, and unable to account for what is happening online. They don’t know why information is being leaked before a talk or presser or synod is even over. They don’t get how blogs and independent news websites like ours can have such an impact. They have no means of measuring or accounting for the influence of small-in-number online communities with large followings.
I know people who work AT the Vatican who tell me their grasp of all of this is incredibly poor. Their playbook is a 1960s playbook. But if the Internet had been around then, who knows what would have happened with Vatican II?
Thank you so much! I had no idea. It’s something that those of us who read and comment on blogs and social media can hardly fathom!
Those are all very interesting points.
Of course, they have the Twitter mastery of Spadaro to edge them into the 21st Century, but…in truth…this whole i-net thing has not been easy for lots of corporations to deal with either. The learning curve has been very long for industry and finance to grasp.
What you say about the Church just makes sense.
“…they have the Twitter mastery of Spadaro to edge them into the 21st Century…”
Indeed. After all, 2+2=5!
Stuck in the sixties. That is it in a nut shell.
Pitiful little men who think they are still hot and cool seminarians and it’s all kumbaya.
Over and over I come to the conclusion this is all about protracted adolescent rebellion magnified by geriatric dementia.
And equally unfortunately, that seems to be the motto of the Catholic Church during the Franciscan pontificate.
I think that nothing good in terms of publicity can come from how the great Cardinal deals with these cases– He will be put in a difficult position and expected to do “monkey tricks”– the archbishop Anthony Apuron has taken leadership in south America opposing “same sex marriage” and has been a big big target by american gay imperialists and the local gay mafiosi– some time ago they put up an ad to entice “victims” of the archbishop to come forward with sexual molestation claims. All they got was an altar boy from a half century ago. Then more ad’s and they got some other backers to bring him down. Cardinal Burke will have to make a defence of him– but the case has been topical in the US press for some time– and Cardinal Burke’s exoneration of this great Archbishop will be the focus of hatred of conservative catholics the like you and I have never witnessed in our life! Mark my words!
I smell a trap. Just like telling him to clean out the SMOM.
Oh, and on that note, get a load of this:
https://twitter.com/EdwardPentin/status/831907514526662656
Does this not all but prove, then, that the whole SMOM business was nothing more than a hit job on Cardinal Burke? How can anyone with half a brain argue otherwise?
#Pope has said he’d accept Festing if he’s re-elected
Uh huh.
He used Festing to get rid of Card. Burke which he did. Of course, he may rig the election. Time will tell.
Of course it was! The entire saga was a set up to marginalize and get rid of Cardinal Burke. I think that was the Pope’s sole purpose. He’s deathly afraid of Cardinal Burke. Another glaring transparency.
They think they are winning that they forget the earthquake on Nov. 8th, 2016 election day in USA that God has intervened to save US from destruction of NWO. Certainly God never abandons His Beloved Son Church, The Catholic Church, so keep praying that Jesus Christ will come back soon.
Dear Steve, Seriously sad to see that the one true faith has now resorted to stabbing anyone that wants the truth being set up. However this is where we currently are.
The Washington Post is pleased…
You can’t make this stuff up.
So in other words, this looks like another set up.
Last time it was: “Go get the bad guys Raymond!” then “WTF, Raymond, that wasn’t a bad guy!”
This time it’ll be: “Go get the bad guys Raymond!” then “WTF, Raymond, how dare you defend that bad guy!”
And the guileless Burke will follow his Lord into further humiliation at the hands of evil men.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.
Dear Brian, you summed it up so well, however I can honestly say that it’s sadly the same here in our parish in France. As a father with two young children that speaks up we are effectively being shunned by the inner circle. We hope that the situation changes but truth is becoming a rare commodity here.
Yes. Burke was set up for failure. And it just happened.
What just happened?
There was no testimony given by the accuser.
Have the accusers previously given depositions or submitted written testimonies?
Yes. Everything was sent to Rome. There is one accuser on Guam. The other 2 live in the states. There is another who is deceased. However, his mother and his brother have submitted testimonies for him. The attorney for the accuser in Guam did not permit Burke to question his client. At least that’s the latest.
Meanwhile, it turns out that Burke is not here just to talk to the accusers. He is here to investigate Archbishop Apuron in total. Apuron already has a large rap sheet unrelated to his sex crimes at the Vatican before the accusers came forward last year.
Thank you for informing us of this. I checked your blog last night and read much of the background info on the Archbishop and your situation in Guam re/ the Neo-Cat Way controversies. What a mess.
Truly a mess. We’ve had 7 Million plus page views in 3 years and have been visited by almost every country on the planet. The reason is that the Neocatechumenal Way is an international disaster. The NCW chiefs and their pal, Cardinal Filoni, are fighting hard to keep things under wraps in Guam. They know if the NCW goes down here in Guam, which has the only bishop in the world who is “walking” in the Way, that the underbelly of the NCW will be exposed and bishops around the world will be emboldened to get rid of the NCW in their diocese. Filoni is directly involved in propping up Apuron and the NCW in Guam.
From what I gather, you support the accusers against Apuron. Two questions: (1) If the accuser has already submitted testimony to Rome, how is it Burke’s failure for not collecting it again, and (2) if the attorney of the accuser refused to allow Burke to speak with his client, how is that the Cardinal’s failure?
Burke wanted to personally observe the accuser and question him. Unfortunately Burke ignored the fact that the accuser was represented by counsel in the pending civil case and Burke prohibited the attorney from being present while the accuser was questioned. The accuser’s attorney then prohibited his client from being questioned, so there was no interview with the accuser. All of this could have been remedied if Burke had contacted the accuser’s attorney and worked out an agreement before hand. Burke’s response to the attorney (I was told) is “this is an internal church matter.” In other words, he was saying that the interview with the accuser was none of the attorney’s business. Given the hell we have been through on Guam for the last several decades under the guise of “its an internal church matter,” the attorney (the top attorney in Guam), said the hell with it and jerked his client out of the proceedings. That’s too bad. This particular victim is perhaps the most credible. I know him personally.
Stalin pope becomes mad when he realizes that he has been exposed to the world as a heretic, false prophet and “destroyer” not a “Vicar of Christ” and his time is shorten now. The scariest thing for him and his cohorts is to face their merciless, betrayal NWO’ chief, Lucifer for the failure of destroying the Roman Catholic Church, Church of Christ. Remember what Jesus said, “…Gate of Hell never prevail it.”
Please read the comment policy:
https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/co…
This is not a forum for those kind of assertions.
I knew something of this was in play, without knowing the specifics that you presented, by which I appreciate.
This is a set up. Not go get him “out of the way”, but to forever greatly harm his credibility.
Who knows for certain, but this was what came to me like a lightening bolt when I read this article.
Again, very much appreciate your information.
“Dear Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.
I so agree with you (and Brian and Christopher)……absolutely the first thing I thought……..”get the bad guys Raymond!” And of course, dutiful, obedient Raymond dives into another set up head first! This is who he is and he wouldn’t even THINK to buck the system. My God, My God how EVIL are these people??!! Jesus have MERCY on Cardinal Burke!! Please protect him from the jaws of the vicious evil wolves!!!!
You sound like a lobotomised NCW member.
Repeating ad nauseum what your Cathechesis has fed you.
To equate Apuron to a great crusaders against the “gay lobby ” is laughable since Apuron himself is a gay pedophile.
Apuron was propped up by this heretical sect, in an attempt to totally control and archdiocese.
The inquest part of the trial is moving forward. We the Catholics of Guam are glad it is. The victims are crying out for justice.
Your vile attempt to besmirch this process highlights your desperation
If you’re on the ground in Guam, I’d be interested in hearing your perspective on this story.
Sure. Let me know what you need
But you say you live in Paris, France… not Guam.
He is on Guam.
I’m the one that put up the ads. We already had the victims.
There is another possibility. Perhaps, Apuron is guilty. (Being against gay marriage is not enough to prove a man isn’t gay.) Burke refuses to cover for him. Burke blows the lid off the whole gay priest network of mutual cover-ups. Said network no doubt reaches very high up into the heirarchy. See Cardinal Daneels.https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/bishop-finn-and-cardinal-danneels-two-different-responses-to-abuse-cover-up
Apuron is a master deceiver. His public actions were just a ruse.
True regarding against gay marriage being not gay. I have a gay brother in law with a live in partner… he’s opposed to gay marriage and voted for Trump.
Your gay brother in law’s motivation in opposing gay marriage might be different than Apuron’s outwardly “opposition”.
Nice to see you weigh in on this. I used your writings about marriage to engage and ultimately defeat the bill to legalize same-sex unions on Guam. I personally know 3 of Apuron’s victims and have worked with them for many months. None of them wanted to go public with this. They simply wanted to confront Apuron with what he did to them and get him to own up to his actions. Instead, Apuron too, to the media and threatened to sue them. That’s when all hell broke loose.
Here is the committee report. Ultimately the bill failed when it was demonstrated publicly the effect the legislation would have on the government retirement fund since it would create a whole new class of dependents not factored into the funds tables. It was the president of the reitrement fund who publicly made the argument on the radio. The next day, the bill was withdrawn.
http://guamlegislature.com/Committee_Reports_30th/Bill%20No.%20B185-30%20(COR).pdf
He did not opposes same sex marriage. He read a script written for him by someone else. I was the one who publicly defended the church’s position on the issue.
You mean this statement?
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-church-must-oppose-homosexuality-even-though-were-hated-for-it-guam-arc
Assuming that’s true, that someone else wrote it, why would that imply that he does not oppose homo “marriage”? He published it in his name; seems to me that demonstrates precisely the opposite of what you claim.
Actually it was not published in his name. He did not sign it. The Neocat priest who wrote it used his stationery then distributed it to the legislature at a meeting. Apuron went along with it because he does what the Neocatechumenal Way bosses tell him to do. He was a pedophile who used his knowledge of the other pedophile priests to manipulate his way into the bishops seat. Then used his power as bishop to cover his history. It worked. Until now.
“The Neocat priest who wrote it used his stationery then distributed it
to the legislature at a meeting. Apuron went along with it because he
does what the Neocatechumenal Way bosses tell him to do.”
How do you know this?
He knows it as I know it: we experienced first hand. Apuron is very good at reciting text that is written for him. The Neo priest who wrote it does not hide the fact that he wrote it. In fact, most everything that Apuron reads is written for him.
It was also a neo priest (not the one that wrote the opposition to homosexual marriage) that, in 2016, wrote official press releases attacking the victims of Apuron; Archdiocesan statements that were subsequently all rescinded by the acting Archbishop (Abp Hon) when Apuron was removed from Guam.
It’s very easy to look up all of this that has been reported in the media on Guam and through compiled documents you can view at junglewatch.info
I was there. I was meeting with the Archbishop and his people almost daily. A senator had introduced a same-sex union bill and there were regular strategy meetings about how to engage it. However, I was the only one who was going up against the legislature in the media. The neocat priest was on this team and he showed me what he had written and I thought he was going to submit it to the newspaper as an op-ed. I approved of it, but only because I thought it was an opinion piece. That afternoon after the church officials met with the legislature, I heard a talk show host tearing apart the archbishop while reading the piece the neocat had written, which went well beyond church teaching and insinuated that homosexuals should be beheaded.
We had an emergency meeting with the archbishop that afternoon to do damage control. It was at the meeting that I saw the neocats “op-ed” printed on the archbishop’s stationery.
The larger problem is that Apuron is a neocat. He is one of the “brothers.” And since becoming a neocat in the mid-90’s, he has been subservient to them, permitting his “catechist” and his “responsibles” to tell him what to do. This got out of control which is why Rome finally jerked him out of here and put in first an apostolic administrator and then a co-adjutor bishop.
Here is a link to the Jungle Watch blog hosted by Mr. Rohr on Guam.
http://www.junglewatch.info
It explains a lot about the NCW Cult infiltration of the Archdiocese of Agaña.
In what capacity were you there? This is all terribly interesting.
In 2002, a friend who was close to Apuron and I formed our version of the Catholic Evidence Guild. After my friend left Guam in 2004, I carried on, often appearing in the press to defend the Church whenever it was attacked. I became a sort of go-to guy for whenever the archdiocese needed to go to the press on a controversial matter.
In 2009, a same-sex bill was introduced in the legislature. I was in the thick of a very intense media battle for 9 months. During that time I was asked to be part of an archdiocesan “task force” to keep the bill from becoming law. We had numerous strategy meetings at which the Archbishop was present though he never said anything.
At one of the meetings I suggested that instead of a soundbite ware between the legislature and the church played out in the press, which loved the controversy, that the archbishop and other church members meet quietly with the legislature and simply talk about the issue. Instead of a sit down and talk session, a certain Fr. Francis Walsh, a professor at the local neocat seminary, wrote a scathing dissertation about homosexuality.
Fr. Walsh shared copies of it with us, and as I mentioned earlier, I though it was fine so long as it was HIS opinion, though I had made it clear that I thought the clergy should stick with exactly what the Catechism says about the issue instead of diving head long into the more controversial aspects.
Unbeknownst to me, Fr. Walsh had his dissertation printed on the Archbishop’s stationery and distributed it at the meeting with the legislature. The meeting immediately broke down with one openly gay senator (and a former superior court justice) going immediately to the press with it.
Apuron and his backers are actually now using this as their defense, saying that he is being persecuted because he took a stand against same-sex marriage. That’s BS. I was the one who was asked by Apuron to go to war for him publicly and I did so almost daily for 9 months. Apuron did nothing but read what he was told to read and then he ran.
Amazing. Thanks so much, Mr. Rohr, for the very important work you’re doing. It is clear you are doing this out of zeal for God’s house and a love of truth and justice, and I hope you are soon richly rewarded for it.
Apuron is a target only because he targeted prepubescent altar boys. We are used to your NCW rhetoric of defending your own because we read the same script parroted by the NCW apologists here on our island. What did they do to you people that you would throw away your free will for a mere man named Kiko?
If he were holding a press conference to issue a formal correction he couldn’t go to Guam.
I certainly want to give Cardinal Burke every consideration. He is one of the very few who know all the facts and so much more. I’m nobody, and not only nobody, but a nobody who knows little about the workings of evil men and the Vatican, so that last thing I want to do is even vaguely criticize Cardinal Burke, may God bless him and protect him.
But this has all become the world of the bizarre, the unreal.
No, as far as I can tell, it makes no sense that Cardinal Burke would be zipping off to Guam. If I were him, I wouldn’t go, but that’s me, operating on very limited information, but I certainly wouldn’t trust things to fly off to a remote region of the world where anything can happen, for sketchy purposes. The pope sends him to Malta, the outer regions, where, even there, he ends up being in the middle of a scandal and a manipulated coup. Now the pope what, “needs him” to go to Guam?
Right now, we need him to make this formal correction, along with the remaining Cardinals. He may not be able to do this in a week, or two, only God knows, but he has today.
Something is not only not right, it is terribly wrong.
How do you know that he and the other three cardinals haven’t sent a formal correction to Francis and Mueller?
Yes, and apparently Burke is going to Guam at the request of the CDF not Francis.
Edward Pentin’s twitter account, just a little while ago, says a private correction has not occurred.
…that is, as far as he knows, which wouldn’t be much, considering it’s a “private” correction.
Right.
He has good sources. But he can’t say with 100% certainty, and he would be the first to tell you that.
And he might be right. (He probably is.) But he can only say based on what his sources (which, admittedly, are among the best) can or will tell him.
In any event, comments like Evangeline’s are, with all due respect to her, irksome to me. Some traditionalists think they have a right to the correction they want, on their own timetable; and God help the Four Cardinals if they don’t adhere to it. But intensely frustrating as the situation is, I’m content to wait and see what they do. They’ve taken the initiative publicly; we know their position; they know more than I do. And they’re doing far more than 99.9% of the rest of the world’s bishops.
I agree with you but some people are more emotional than others, and in this painful time it doesn’t even stretch my “charity muscles” to cut our brothers and sisters some slack when their ideas/expression differ from mine. (I’m not implying a lack of charity on your part at all, just explaining the way I read lots of commenters here and elsewhere.)
I think we all know that “…something is…terribly wrong. ”
But, Cardinal Burke will do as he is told……….. he has taken this oath
“I [name and surname], Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church, promise and swear to be faithful henceforth and forever, while I live, to Christ and his Gospel, being constantly obedient to the Holy Roman Apostolic Church, to Blessed Peter in the person of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, and of his canonically elected Successors…………..”
His only ‘out’ is “…canonically elected successors…” THAT would open not a can of worms but rather a can of Vipers. cf. Genesis 3:14
Hmm. Didn’t we have a certain Vietnam-related case here in the U.S. that put the lie forever to following immoral orders?
“Go to Guam” is not an immoral order. He wouldn’t think it right to disobey an order like that. This is where those beggars get him. By using his own goodness and obedience against him.
His “out” is that he’s sworn to obey BOTH the Church and the Pope, which presupposes no division between the two. Because no one can perform a contradictory act, if (when) Francis deviates from the Church, all cardinals will be released from their oaths to obey him.
This is what I do not understand..It seems a contradiction to obey such an order which seems to have come from the Pope whom Cardinal Burke seems to think needs to be declared a formal heretic and therefore not a valid pope:
yet the order was given by the CDF under Cardinal Muller’s direction, so whom is Cardinal Burke obeying?
Even more of a contradiction is the fact that Cardinal Burke’s judgment would be considered so valuable to the CDF as to choose to send him while at the same time he is an open adversary of Pope Francis’s stated interpretation of the pastoral practices to be followed by his Cardinals, bishops and priests regarding communion for the divorced and re-married Catholics living in sinful relationships .
Cardinal Burke has not given an indication that Francis is a formal heretic. The last he said regarding such was, when asked what would have to happen, he replied that it would fall to the College of Cardinals and that he hopes we won’t see a formal heretic pope for a very long time. I forget where that interview was, but I’m sure Steve or someone else could point it out. All Cardinal Burke has done is, with 3 other cardinals, issued questions to Pope Francis asking for clarification on 5 points (the dubia). He has also said that, if no answer is received, then a formal act of correction of a serious error would need to be made. Whether he thinks Francis is a formal heretic as many of us do is unknown, but if he does think it, he hasn’t said it.
Regarding the second part, the CDF has jurisdiction for now over the handling of priest sexual abuse cases. Since this is an Archbishop, this is a much higher issue and Cardinal Muller either of his own volition or with instructions from higher up has tapped Cardinal Burke, likely for his canon law expertise. As stated in the article, it seems a slightly odd choice since he has no particular experience with this issue but still not completely odd. So Cdl. Burke’s either obeying the pope’s orders (which the Pope has the right to give until he’s not the pope) or he’s acting as an agent of the CDF. Apparently the Cardinal has been working on this case since the beginning of February.
you live in a textbook world and you missed the point… sigh !
If PF exiled Card. Burke to Guam, he probably has to exile thousand or million more truthful and faithful Catholics who follow and support Cardinal’s just acts. Praying that St. Michael will defend and protect Card. Burke from the wickedness of this evil pope.
He’s only here for two days. Leaving tonight.
I share your concern absolutely, but if Cardinal Burke is “sent” by Vatican, can he not obey the order? What would happen to him if he disobeyed? A high risk assignment for sure, in all senses of the word.
Let’s hope these are just the musings of his heterodox adversaries and that it’s not going to happen. If it did, I believe it would backfire as more orthodox bishops would stand up in his place for Truth and Justice. Truth will never be silenced.
I shall hold on to that!
Thank you.
but we may have to wait for the General Judgment
We never know, do we, from one day to the next?
Let us keep our sights on this present moment and do our utmost best for our Lord.
Great prayer is so needed I should think and random acts of charity.
And as we set our sights for today, let us remember to look Above.
Guam? I had to read through the article to believe it. That’s almost a bad movie cliche for someone who’s now considered ‘persona non grata’.
sending him into the minefield, hoping he’ll make a misstep.
To be “Burked” is the new “Borked”.
Doesn’t this pretty much guarantee that there is no “formal correction” in the offing. You don’t take this position if you are about to declare the Pope a heretic and hold an “imperfect council” to depose him.
One of the Tweets from Hilary White, which you have linked here, demonstrates rather clearly that she is an unreliable source for anything, not to mention a hot-head. She claims her “theology friends” tell her that a Council cannot depose a Pope. Anyone who has read “True or False Pope” knows that a Council is, in fact, the ONLY Church body that can depose a Pope! I suggest, for your own credibility, you keep your distance from Hilary White, who is also good at putting words in people’s mouths that they did not say, like Cardinal Zen.
There’s lots of disagreement about that point. I’m not bothered by it, especially because Twitter is hardly the place to advance a complex thesis.
And Hilary may be flippant, but she was a journalist for 15 years. She knows the difference between a real source and a phony one. And she has a lot of connected friends in Rome. The rumors are at this stage non-specific, but indicate that something big is being planned. Considering the number of emails and messages I get with bits and pieces of Francis’ alleged forthcoming agenda, I can’t help but find such whisperings believable.
She said her guess is Vatican III. Are you getting the same kind of vibe?
What about Schism III?
My guess is Vatican IV, not Vatican III.
After all, 2 plus 2 is 5, so 2 plus 1 is 4.
The next council after Vatican II must therefore be IV.
I LOLed.
I don’t have one. The rumors I’ve been hearing are all different. About other things. But she’s in Rome and I’m not. She has an ear to the ground in a way I can’t from over here.
I have been reading this on other blogs as well……something BIG, REALLY BIG is in the offing. What I think we can all say for sure is that Francis is moving FAST. Usually, as we all know they move at a snail’s pace in Rome, but not this guy! He seems to be speeding up not slowing down. That alone tells me he has an agenda to be feared. You don’t need rumors to see the speed in which he is ‘getting things underway’.
Odd you put it that way. The other day another site had the same observation, but their conclusion was things are at their highest velocity as they approach the wall.
I’m going to delude myself for a few weeks and take comfort in that.
Motus in fine velocior.
If it were Vat3, I hope a big number will refuse to attend.
Nope, don’t think I can make it……..my calendar’s full doing novena’s.
Oh I hope they all go if there is an ecumenical council… and begin proceedings on the heresies of Francis and demand a recant and repentance!
The Last Council was not exactly a raging success. It ended up doing a lot of damage. Pope Benedict has written about this. We should be very fearful if another Council is summoned.
I would think this Pope would be leery about a Council. I mean, for sort of similar reasons many are leery in American government about Constitutional Convention. You just can’t guarantee where they might go.
Valid, legitimate, legal, possible or not, a new Council COULD devolve into {at the very least} a vote of no-confidence for the Pope. I don’t think Bergoglio wants that…or maybe he does…
Maybe his statement about splitting the Church implies his eagerness to CAUSE a fight he could manage to boot out those he doesn’t like. Which just might not go as he plans…
My vibe is making the Mass “ecumenical” thus invalidating it. After all, we can now put statues of Luther in the Vatican, so why not in the sanctuary? You can also see the re-suppression of the Tridentine Mass by bishops who get away with it, and Francis railing against rigid traditionalists.
“Flippant”? I’ve found her very rude, very personally unpleasant – called me “that Scottish nut-job” – Er??? Me? Moi? We were both very hurt!
Seriously, though, obviously, you are getting “whisperings” from elsewhere – she is not your only source, so if you take my humble advice, use your other sources and don’t risk doing what I almost did, publish something that is plain wrong (I take my share of the blame, I was a tad careless in not checking the original source, of course). I get the feeling, perhaps wrongly, that certain writers, including Hilary White, are more keen on getting there first than on getting it right, which is very sad. I think, while having a background as a journalist may be an advantage in this kind of apostolic work, other principles are much more important.
PRO TIP: claiming that someone with a decades long body of online work, is not a reliable source of “anything” — based on nothing more than a cursory reading of their twitter account — is a sure way to make yourself look like not a reliable source for anything.
Hillary White is one of the few sources that knows the insiders personally. She broke a story about petition written by prominent academics before anyone.
Perhaps the something big rumored to be coming will be Francis revealing the rest of the 3rd secret of Fatima. His version.
I completely agree. Hilary White is anything but reliable. I took one of her headlines/reports on her own blog at face value and used it as a source in our Catholic Truth newsletter. Luckily I realised in time that the Cardinal she quoted had said no such dramatic thing, that she had put her own words into his mouth, and we were able to organise a batch of erratum slips to include with that edition. I’ve not visited her blog since and have no plans to do so – ever!
That statement , and others which some consider debatable make me also question some of Hilary White’s theology friends. I do not fault her so much because I do not think she comes from a strong theology background herself but I do think that she could find better theology friends to advise her, and be more careful about being used as a mouthpiece for those who are advising her.
Well, TECHNICALLY, a Council can’t depose a pope. That would mean the Council has authority over the Pope which we know is conciliarism and a heresy. Technically the pope would depose himself by holding pertinaciously to heresy, and the Council would perform a purely ministerial function, not a juridical one. So, again technically, her “theology friends” are right. I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.
“She claims her “theology friends” tell her that a Council cannot depose a Pope. Anyone who has read “True or False Pope” knows that a Council is, in fact, the ONLY Church body that can depose a Pope!”
Not at all. No Council can bind a Pope in matters of discipline: this is the heresy of conciliarism. Certainly, a Council can “depose” a Pope in the sense that it express its loss of confidence in him, or can recommend his abdication, as happened to Pope Gregory XII. But it cannot remove him from office against his will.
Such a fear is coming over me
My enemies are beyond where my eyes can see
And the reason is clear, it’s because Burke is near!
Or I won’t be surprised one of his team!
There is one place I want Burke to be
In a prison cell and throw away the key!
All my problems would cease and I’d live here in peace
Won’t someone arrange something for me soon, please?
I’m on the top of the Church
I’m looking down on Congregations
And the only explanation I can find
For the resistance I’ve found, it’s because Burke’s still around
It’s like he wants to do my job in the Church!
Something in the newspapers today
Telling me that Burke is not goin’ away
Can’t someone do him in, or just take him for a spin
To a deserted place where he can stay
There is only one thing on my mind
When this day is through I hope that I will find
Burke is gone and then perhaps their resistance would collapse
Why does this restorationist take up so much time?
I’m on the top of the Church
I’m looking down on Congregations
And the only explanation I can find
For the resistance I’ve found, it’s because Burke’ still around
It’s like he wants to do my job in the Church
I’m on the top of the Church
I’m looking down on Congregations
And the only explanation I can find
For the resistance I’ve found, it’s because Burke’s still around
It’s like he wants to do my job in the Church
To be sung to ‘Top of the World’ by the Carpenters.
Presumably after the hearings or testimony or whatever is going to take place in Guam, Burke will go home. I don’t see any evil intent here – yet. After all, even Guam is just a flight (albeit a long one) away from anywhere you want to go. So for the time being we should not read evil intent here.
We might look at this from another perspective – Burke is obviously trusted by someone in Rome to judge this situation, or at least gather information and testimony. Isn’t that good?
See my guess posted below. I hope I am wrong.
Pope Francis is sending Burke to Guam because he knows Climate Change will cause it to capsize!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cesSRfXqS1Q
Best laugh of the day! Thank you Ghisallo.
One of my favorite clips ever. ;’D
my stars thats funny!!
The sad part is… that guy makes laws.
It’s simple really. Pope Francis knows Burke, as an American, has experience in dealing with the sex abuse crisis. And as a canon lawyer/expert, Burke is the perfect person to act as judge. It’s similar to the situation with Cardinal Law when he was essentially exiled to Rome, and Wikileaks revealed that he made diplomatic missions to China for the Holy See.
It seems hazardous to say it’s similar to Law’s situation. He wasn’t “exiled” to Rome, he escaped to Rome. If he’d remained in Boston, he might well be sitting in prison right now.
On Jan. 19th I Heard from a source (that has so far never been wrong), that a major announcment from the Vatican would be forthcoming in the next 60 days, or by March 18th. It seemed to indicate something bigger than a Dubia. Something that would affect the whole church. Perhaps both of our sources were hearing from a same higher source.
Pope Francis is getting married. Not sure if it’s to a man or a woman.
Remember to give me credit when it’s official.
Wonderful. We could all send him wedding/poster cards and maybe someone would make him a cake with an appropriate message.
“Vade Retro Satana”
It’s very petrine.
Is Romulus your real name? Maybe soon you will have to change it into Guamus??
All critics will be sent to Guam?
I think for satan it would be nicer if we were all divided / spreaded around the world. But therefor it is so good to meet each other on this kind of websites. We know we are not alone!
Hi Romulus – I bet Elton John sings at the reception.
Maybe Bergoglio wll announce the sale of the Vatican to Soros et al. and will use his annexation of the SMOM as a predecent for one country’s sovereignty simply being erased by big bucks. You recall how Bergoglio refused the red cape, the symbol of his temporal authority, when elected first, and has never worn it since.
Dear 1peter5, thank you for your tenacity, I can say that Cardinal Burke after being ejected from the Vatican visited France and many Catholics met with him. Saint Paul was shipwrecked on Malta and Guam doesn’t stop Cardinal Burke from continuing to set a truthful example of what is expected of a Cardinal.
Thank you, Christopher.
Dear Steve. It will profit you to spend some time reading a few new entries by Mr, James Larson as regards the heretical claims by Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke that he and other Cardinals can depose a Pope.
CWR: Who is competent to declare him to be in heresy?
Cardinal Burke: It would have to be members of the College of Cardinals.
Mr. Larson comments:
Unlike the Papacy and the office of Bishop, the College of Cardinals is not of Divine institution. Throughout history, many Cardinals have not been bishops or even priests. There are actually three classes of Cardinals – Cardinal-bishops, Cardinal-priests, and Cardinal-deacons. Any unique authority a Cardinal might possess at any given point in history stems solely from the juridical authority of the Pope. The office has a long and complicated history of development, and Cardinals did not become the exclusive electors of the Pope until 1059. Current Papal legislation states that only Cardinals under the age of 80 may participate in the election of a new Pope. No Cardinal, or group of Cardinals, however, have ever been given the authority to declare that a Pope is a heretic, and that he has consequently been deposed from his Office.
What Cardinal Burke has proposed is therefore an objective heresy.
http://www.waragainstbeing.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
War against being
New Article Posted February 4, 2017: A Tower of Babel: The Rush to Depose a Pope
—————————–
A Tower of Babel:
The Rush to Depose a Pope
+++++++++++++++++++++++++==
A Catholic has no other option than calling on The Lord and waiting on The Lord. The Pope is judged by no man and he can not be judged by a flock of Cardinals.
WE (Trads/Cardinals/SSPX and other schismatics/Sedss) think the Catholic Church is in our hands but it is in the hands of He who established it, Jesus.
I don’t think it is heresy to suggest a method for dealing with a rogue Pope since must hangs on the definition of “judge”, but I also don’t think deposition is going to happen, either.
Now, 30 or 40 years from now a future Pope may “judge” this one and who knows, may sweep history clean of every word this guy has written or uttered. I think that will be on the calendar the day after Lefebvre is Sainted.
{I might not be joking about that last point…}
Well, objectively, poor Mons. Lefebvre died EENS but I have no idea what his ultimate disposition was.
As for deposing Franciscus, one will have to judge him a heretic and given that he was taught all of the modern errors, how is one to judge him a pertinacious heretic etc?
When was the last time a prelate was judged a heretic, say nothing about a Pope being judged a heretic?
That just means we’re getting closer to the time when one is.
We can all rest assured that the depth of knowledge and superior intelligence of Raymond Cardinal Burke is not to be matched by many in the Church… from Pope Bergoglio down to Mr. Larson.
And further, given his deep faith in Jesus Christ and his loyalty to His Church, there would be blood shed, a life given, before Cardinal Burke would fall into heresy.
Is his intellect, knowledge, and sanctity of such consequence that he could not fall into error like an Origen or Tertullian?
Has Burke ever identified the source that gives Gelaro-wearers such authority?
Didn’t Vatican 1 infallibly declare that the Holy See would always be preserved from error as per the will/promise of Jesus Christ?
O, and He had some pretty good qualities also…
Chapter 2.
On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45].
2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46].
Consider it a huge blessing that Burke was sent on a mission
In an interview for CWR Cardinal Burke said “we are not accusing him of heresy, but just asking him to answer these questions for us as the Supreme Pastor of he Church”.
Cardinal Burke: There is a very serious division in the Church which has to be mended because it has to do with, as I said before, fundamental dogmatic and moral teaching. And if it’s not clarified soon, it could develop into a formal schism.
“It is one thing for the Holy Spirit to be wth us, but it is another thing for us to be obedient to the Holy Spirit.”
The number of errors & blasphemies from the mouth of this pope and his mouthpieces (not to mention what went on in Argentina) is preposterous to say the least, going against Tradition & the teaching of Christ Himself (re-writing the Ten Commandments which no human can take upon themselves), the Sacraments, Liturgy, proposed Women Deacons/Priests, putting schismatics & infidels before his brethren, being elected with the support of the Sankt Gallen Mafia, etc. etc. Cardinal Burke, the other three Cardinals & their supporters are perfectly entitled to insist that the ‘Supreme Pastor’ and only him, to whom they were addressed, answers them without delay or face the consequences which, as Cardinal Burke says, could lead to a formal schism. As PF himself has alluded to the possibility of going down in history as being the one to split the Church, he obviously has little regard for such an outcome.
Ana. I quoted from CWR
CWR: Who is competent to declare him to be in heresy?
Cardinal Burke: It would have to be members of the College of Cardinals.
So, because it is Catholic Doctrine that no one judges the Pope, where does Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke get his putative authority from?
It is non-existent; thus, Cardinal Burke proposes a novelty that would overturn two thousand and 17 years of orthopraxis and trads are not only jake with that, they demand it happens sooner rather than later.
When traditionalists are promoting this radical novelty how come that does not register with them; why such a lack of self-awareness?
Baseless suppositions generated by animus against a man who is the quintessence of sobriety, clear thinking, devotion – by those inebriated by fraudulent poetics and nanny-speak deposited by Bergoglian cartel.
Affect is never a substitute for intellect.
Be advised to take your understanding of ecclesiology, of the episcopacy and the papacy deeper. All the pretending, wishful thinking, and clicking of heels cannot reconcile the bold purpose of “Amoris Laetitia,” cowardly hidden in a footnote, with this from the Dogmatic Constitution “Pastor aeternus” of Vatican I:
“The Holy Spirit was not given to the Roman Pontiffs so that they might disclose new doctrine, but so that they might guard and set forth the Deposit of Faith handed down from the Apostles.”
That is why the dubia are not specifically answered.
Now go hide beneath your desk. You’ll have company.
While your down there pick up some Robert Bellarmine to pass the time. Not as affirming to some personalities as Jesuits Spadero, Reese and Martin – but a faithful Jesuit with something to offer.
Honorius. John XXII. St. Marcellinus. All popes. All fell into error in some way, at some point. Vatican I’s declarations didn’t become valid only after V1. They’re for all time. So how do you square these 3 with that reading? There is nothing saying that a pope will not fall into error. It’s saying that the office of the papacy will remain for all time. Nothing about an individual man that holds it. The fact that Bergoglio has been so ambiguous in his statements should be proof of the Holy Spirit’s protection.
Before concluding that not one Pope was a heretic, the Fathers of Vatican 1 diligently investigated all of those claims, and more, before Dogmatically Teaching the Infallibility of the Pope and teaching that The Holy See would never fail. NEVER.
One either accepts that is Catholic Dogma or one does not and if one does not, he is anathema
Just stop. You’re clearly not willing to look at the situation, look at the facts, do the research, and see where we are. You blather ideas, then you change your mind and quote the same two bits from Pastor Aeternus. No one here has said the Holy See or the Papacy have fallen. They haven’t. Consider what never fail might mean aside from “all Popes will be perfect in doctrine.” We know for a fact from Sacred Scripture that Peter fell into error and was corrected. We know Honorius was condemned by the Church as a heretic in a Council and by his successor. John XXII taught that man did not see the beatific vision after death but had to wait for the resurrection, an idea directly opposed to the Deposit of Faith. He recanted and corrected himself but for a time he fell into heresy. Perhaps we’ll see a conversion of Pope Francis. Perhaps we won’t. But the Pope is a human being who can err. His infallibility is only under very specific conditions.
Why is it again that Cardinal Percy Franklin, er Burke is going to Guam?
Catholic Deep State.
Cardinal Burke’s command of all things canonical/ecclesiastical, and his own position at this moment make him the perfect candidate to go to Guam and clean up what appears to be a nasty mess.
This pessimist of gargantuan proportions sees his assignment as something of a backhanded acknowledgement of Cardinal Burke’s superior proficiency in not only “the law” but in sensitive pastoral intervention in a very grave situation. And too, it might be a grace for him to get a different view for a week or so – away from the cesspool on the Tiber.
God bless him and uphold him always.
As for these other rumors mentioned – who knows? There is a special fourth anniversary coming up in March. Maybe we’ll see it all wrapped-up and over!
Truly it is a tragically sad day when it is so easy to assume the worst of a Pope…
All too true! If anyone had told me four years ago that I’d be supportive of a poster campaign in Rome castigating the pope, I would have said ‘No way, no how!’ But in 2017, after four long years of being force-fed a mockery of mercy, if I’d known of the poster plan in advance, I’d have been on the first flight to Ciampino Airport with a step-ladder and my suitcase full of gum.
RTHEVR – Benefit of the doubt has long run out for PF. It has not been “easy”, believe me.
I do not like conspiration theories at all – also no rumors. But it is hard to believe that this sending to Guam for Cardinal Burke is only because he is a good choice to handle with this problem. The coexistence of the shooting by several journals just two days before to send him away from Rome is obvious. Also if we are aware that he is like a lamp (also a lamb) in the hierarchy – not ready to follow a way of errors – it might be not out of reality that some like him more to see far away than in Rome! We will see ! I think he will all give as a sacrifice for the recent irritations! But we? We are called for what besindes prayer and sacrifice? What does the Lord want that we are to be not only spectators of a drama! Please Lord show how to resist!
I’m not sure what to think of this one. Certainly something to watch closely, but Cardinal Burke, as a canon lawyer and former prefect, has ever knowledge and skills to deal with this situation. It could certainly be a trap. Or it could be, for once, a good call by the Vatican. I dunno. Since it wasn’t Cardinal Müeller who officially sent him, I’m tentatively going to be hopeful. And with the internet, he can still make a lot of noise.
Cool your jets, folks. Cardinal Burke is only here on Guam for a few days in order to get the testimony of one of the Archbishop’s accusers. The other 3 accusers live elsewhere.
Charles White
Tamuning, Guam
Unless there is a way to prevent Cdl Burke from using the Internet, this will have no effect on what he hears or what he says.
This will be good preparation for Cardinal Burke. He can hone his skills for the upcoming Pope Francis Deposition, the one used to prosecute the case that Francis is an unrepentant Heretic..
I am not sure of what to make of this. Considering that this Pontificate is really bad at dealing with sex abuse (Francis has a Cardinal on his Council of Nine who covered up abuse not to mention other perpetrators being promoted), why would they send an eminent canon lawyer who held the highest juridical office in the Church? Either the Vatican is really trying its best to reverse the clerical sex abuse (!), or this is some incongruous plan of cognitive dissonance that is just this Pontificate all over. Either way, I am going to take a healthy middle ground until something “concrete” happens either during or successive to the case.
It seems that the SOP of the reign of Francis is quite a bit more evil than we could have ever imagined. This whole feigned interest in taking care of sex abuse victims by removing bishops who have connections with it is an avenue for Bergolio to remove any and all bishops who are even remotely orthodox.
And the gullible sheep will cry “Oh, isn’t Pope Francis wonderful! He cares so much about the victims!” Meanwhile he surrounds himself with and promotes to high positions filthy sodomites or sodomite-friendly prelates. How dumb does he think we are? Anyone halfway paying attention can see right through this garbage. Now he sends Card. Burke to take care of one of these cases, whether credible or not, in order to get him out of Rome and out of the way so he can proceed with his demonic plan. If he had simply axed Card. Burke, he wouldn’t look very good or merciful, now would he? Apparently the plan is to keep him busy with things that no one would consider dubious. But, we who are paying attention have to wonder…what is the man who is Satan’s minion really up to?
I have a copy of the letter from Burke to the mother of one of the accusers. I can’t post it. However, you may want to stay tuned to my blog at http://www.junglewatch.info. Burke’s first meeting was supposed to be at 9:30 today. It is 9:41am right now.
I just posted a live feed from a news group. http://www.junglewatch.info
Here is a picture of Burke arriving at the chancery
https://www.postguam.com/news/local/vatican-tribunal-arrives-in-guam-expects-to-hear-from-archbishop/article_023e7b3e-f3d4-11e6-86b7-2bb35ca581ce.html
So, hang on, Cardinal Burke is being sent “to deal with the deposition of a bishop there.”.
Could this be Mueller cunningly giving him a hands on dry run for the deposition of a certain other Bishop…?! Almost like a practical training course! 🙂 🙂
Contrary to “I am not Spartacus” and Mr Larson it would seem that the most appropriate persons to declare an apparent Pope to not in fact be the Pope would be the cardinals. The episcopacy is indeed a divine institution but no bishop holds any rights over the Church of Rome other than the bishop of Rome himself.
The bishops of the Catholic Church do not elect the pope. The Church of Rome elects its own bishop. That is why all cardinals have, in principle, parishes in the Roman diocese. When you are elected cardinal you are elected to the Roman clergy. And it is the Roman clergy that have the right and authority to elect a Roman pontiff.
Likewise the Roman clergy then should be the ones to announce the status of a particular papal claim to be valid or invalid. Not an ecumenical council or any other bishop. If every cardinal were to die tomorrow the clergy of the Roman see would elect the next pope – not an ecumenical council or any other synod.
Fair points. However, while the Roman clergy do elect the pope, a deposition of a reigning pontiff is a different matter. I’m uncertain as to exactly where anti-pope’s were declared such in history, but I imagine the cardinals never made that decision alone. As for deposing a pope, well, it’s never been done before. If Francis is a heretic, it may well be beyond the purview of the cardinals alone. Take a look at this scholarly article on the matter as a possibility. http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1284-can-the-church-depose-an-heretical-pope That said, perhaps it would be the Cardinals alone. As we know, it’s never happened before. And, technically as the article states, the pope would depose himself by his pertinacity in holding heresy, since he can be judged by no one.
Where does this putative authority come from?
It is non-existent. It is an authority manufactured out of whole cloth entirely divorced (intended) from Tradition.
The authority to elect the Pope? It comes from Tradition. If you’re referring to something else, please clarify.
the authority to declare a Pope a heretic and then depose him
It reminds me of when King David sent Uriah to the front lines in order to dispatch Uriah’s soul to God after finding out Bathsheba was pregnant.
I’m not reading this article the way Steve is. Reduced to its essentials, Cardinal Burke is being sent to Guam to take a deposition, under oath, of a bishop accused of a serious crime, and depositions of anyone there who has testimony relevant to the case. There is no way this is not an important function of an important matter before the Church.
“… there are other places where such services are needed — places far less remote. Guam is 7,552 miles from Rome.”
In today’s world Guam is right around the corner from Rome. Miles are irrelevant. Pickup the phone and you’re there. Get on a plane and you’re a day away.
Why Burke? It’s axiomatic today that Pope Bergoglio is scared to death of Cardinal Burke. Could this not be an irrational attempt by a confused South American bishop to bring him, voluntarily into his tent, thinking that the Cardinal will take the bait and reward him by getting off his back (fat chance)?
Cardinal Burke is not being dissed here. He’s being asked to do a service for the Church for which is quite well qualified. IMO.
Cardinal Burke has nothing else to work on, so why not send him 😉
Someone who has seen Card Burke recently remarked to me that they “Just wanted to give him a hug”. Well why don’t we do just that? If we all say at least a decade of the Rosary for him we can send him a ‘spiritual hug’. If we repeat this request all across the blogsphere he will have a lot of help from heaven. I don’t have a Twitter account, so if someone else could post it there as well. Our Heavenly Mother will pass on our support to him.
I would like to share some new news about the FIs. I was an F.I. and left in 2009 so I still am in contact with a couple. I just spoke with an Italian FI at length last week (Feb. 2017) about the situation with the FIs. We all know that some FIs have been trying to leave (those who supported Fr. Geiger and Fr. Fehlner and The Commision AND those who sided with Fr. Stefano and Fr. Gabriel-the founders) Basically since Fr. Stefano and Fr. Gabriel have been marginalized (btw, it was these two founders and the many younger vocations that were already there and coming in who were the ones orienting the order towards the Traditional Mass, Office, etc., which was really the majority of the order) and after Fr. Geiger and Fr. Peter Felhner recently left to rejoin the Conventuals, the many leftover FIs are left without the leadership they once had…Those in the Vatican have practically completely stepped in. The news is that right now, the FI Constitutions is going to be completely replaced. They will be a completely different order basically and the Italian FI I spoke with says the leftover FIs will be given a choice to stay or leave, but many many more will leave because they will be a completely different order, so he says. The new Constitutions is in the works now and will be out later.
Some good news. There are a few bishops that are trying to incardinate those traditionally minded FIs (He said one was in England, some FIs already there) and start off anew right before the division within happened after the commission and begin again according to the traditional direction the order was taking, supported by Fr. Stefano and Fr. Gabriel.
We’ll see…There’s such a battle going on right now. May Jesus and Mary get us all through this.
Prayer and penance.
so many crazy rumors….
http://whatisupwiththesynod.com/index.php/2017/02/15/fra-cristoforo-francis-had-plans-with-clinton-to-rehabilitate-catholic-non-negotiables-in-a-soft-manner/
Hummmm ….. kinda like when John the Baptist was thrown in prison for shouting the truth ……..
I have had a gut feeling for several years now. There has been no reason for it, no evidence, nothing but my own instincts.
And yet, with every new development surrounding Cardinal Burke, with every setback, with every fresh insult and diminishing and banishment, I grow more confident:
Within a very short period of time, we will be calling him papabile.
Boy, its an ever ending saga in the daily life of the Vatican and most likely, if you don’t agree with the current Dictatorship under Frankie, (what happened to dialogue?) you will be given the boot or demoted. Are there any brave Cardinals there that will speak out in defense of the Church of Christ..!!? Frankie is ruling the Vatican like Kim Jung Un….
While we’re all terribly frustrated and fed up with this pontificate, Francis is still pope, so please give him the respect he’s due and not call him Frankie. Wait until he’s not pope for that. 😉
I would caution people about putting too much of your hopes in Cardinal Burke. While I absolutely LOVE his choice in vestments and his style in general…. the Lavender Mafia has a way of “outing” their opponents at the most opportune time. They would’ve loved to have “outed” Benny-in-the-Red Shoes but there was no Stasi dossier to corroborate all the “rumors.” But when you have a “Prince of the Church” who likes to dress up like a Christmas tree, things could be different.
DO NOT PUT YOUR TRUST IN PRINCES. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47daaca78ab86233d145334c8302fb8bf2e95de2ebadc74f0ac24a5eb0c35f1f.jpg
*bursts into song*
Pope Francis: “Now you’re just some bishop that I used to know”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=8UVNT4wvIGY
Does PF and his dubious host of associates not yet know the jig is up? Obviously not! To put it in popular parlance. “if you strike me down Darth, I will become far more powerful than you could possibly imagine!”
Speak up NOW, Cardinal Burke. Be not afraid!
I think it’s time for Ranjeth to speak
Boy I am beginning to feel the Pope and Obama have a lot in common. And it is not good. God help us!
Such as avoiding to say the Name above all the names at the beginning of every speech, and even prayers – at first one who loves to say,- “Buona sera fratelil”. And that second one who said already that America is not more a christian country.
The Sources of Catholic Dogma, Denzinger
1830 [Recourse to the Roman Pontiff as the supreme judge]. And since the Roman Pontiff is at the head of the universal Church by the divine right of apostolic primacy, We teach and declare also that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [cf. n.1500 ], and that in all cases pertaining to ecclesiastical examination recourse can be had to his judgment [cf. n. 466 ]; moreover, that the judgment of the Apostolic See, whose authority is not surpassed, is to be disclaimed by no one, nor is anyone permitted to pass judgment on its judgment [cf. n.330 ff.]. Therefore, they stray from the straight path of truth who affirm that it is permitted to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical Council, as to an authority higher than the Roman Pontiff.
Why have soi disant Trads willfully ignored this in their lust to dispose this Pope?
There is no authority to do so; no man may judge the Pope. Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke never tells us where his faux authority to judge a Pope a heretic and depose him comes from -and he can’t because such authority is a heretical chimera.
He should stay in Guam so he can not complete the task he wrongly assigned to himself and others.
Go ahead, go on, back some Cardinals having authority to declare a Pope heretic and depose him and then explain how that action would not result in the Cardinals having authority over a Pope to say nothing about such an action being a one-time only event.
Trads have already accepted a permanent schism as necessary and praiseworthy ,so, I guess there is no principle or Dogmatic Teaching that won’t be jettisoned if it inhibits their will
Regardless of whether or not the church has the authority to rid itself of a heretical pope, the damage being done by Pope Francis is undeniable yes? That HAS to be dealt with. To let things go on is a grave injustice to the whole church. Souls are going to hell because of Pope Francis. This cannot be ignored.
Scholarly work has been done to indicate that a pope could be “removed.” I don’t want to say I’ve made up my mind on whether it’s true or not, but the arguments seem good to me. The point is that a heretic cannot be pope because a heretic has cut themselves off from the church, and one who is not a member of the church cannot be head of the church. So the whole argument for the college of cardinals or an “imperfect” ecumenical council is to essentially put a seemingly heretical pope into a situation where he has to either proclaim the faith or admit his heresy. If he admits to and holds to heresy then the pope makes clear that he does not hold the faith, is not a true Christian, and has deprived himself of any and all offices he holds in the church (in this case, the papacy.) The council or cardinals or whoever else it may be then perform the ministerial function of proclaiming to the Church that this now former pope (who deposed HIMSELF through a profession of heresy) is in fact no longer the pope. It can then perform the juridical act of excommunicating this former pope. It’s not entirely clear when the pope definitively loses his office in such a case (either believing heresy, professing heresy, or the proclamation he’s a heretic).
No trads I know of who understand the arguments are calling for the cardinals and bishops to depose the pope on their own authority. True, it is a fine line that needs to be walked here as it is very easy to accidentally fall into conciliarism. So we have to be careful. And the hierarchy has to be doubly so.
The other side of this is that none of this has really happened before (one could argue Pope St. Marcellinus deposed himself before his subsequent re-election and martyrdom but it seems a little unclear to me if it was a deposition or resignation). We don’t REALLY know yet. So we have to trust the Holy Spirit here. Eventually all of this will be made clear by a future pope and/or council. It’s up to us to remain faithful ourselves.
Who judges the Pope is a heretic if Catholic Dogma and Catholic Doctrine and Canon Law and Ecclesiastical tradition and Tradition are all in agreement that no one judges the Pope?
Maybe I missed something here after all these months since the Dubia was sent/offered, but, when did Cardinal Burke ever suggest or say or remotely imply during any of his interviews or otherwise that the Pope was a heretic? ..or judge him to be a heretic? Asking him to clarify Church teaching and how his exhortation relates to that established teaching and whether it supports it or is fact changing it, albeit on a ‘pastoral’ level, is not the same as “judging the Pope”.
Now if according to Canon Law the Pope ceases to be Pope because of his supporting and/or teaching heresy, well then there might be reason to say that he is fact a heretic because technically he’s not Pope anymore, and therefore susceptible to such judgement by the Church.
Now I’m just a regular Catholic convert dude (who thanks to 1P5 has started attending my states (DE) only Latin Mass) who tries to stay informed as best I can, but I THINK I just killed your argument ; )
Sacramental Discipline is not Catholic Doctrine and A.L does uphold Catholic Doctrine as Cardinal Mueller has stated publicly.
Heresy does not have to do with sacramental discipline.
Now, you may think your argument is a killer but it is as cold and as dead as are the waters off Rehoboth Beach right now.
yeah..that answers nothing. My case stands. #neo-ultramontanism
One of the joys of being a prosecutor and the judge is that rulings are always in your favor.
Although you are aught but a new convert, you have learned rapidly.
Adios
Poor Cardinal Burke. He has certainly had his share of humiliation under the present pope. May God grant him the courage and PATIENCE he needs. After all, popes don’t live forever. Also – With modern means of communication, no place, not even Guam, is inaccessible. On the internet and on the phone, and by jet, our long-suffering Cardinal can still be a part of things.
“After all, popes don’t live forever.”
No, they don’t, and I am pretty sure reliance on that fact is the main line of defense against heresy we are going to see from the lion’s share of our prelates. As opposed to open resistance.
But what the Church is going to look like on the first day of the next pope’s reign is a big fat question mark, to me at least.
I think it is ironic that before Pope Benedict’s abdication, the last pope to retire was Pope Celestine. He was followed by Boniface VIII. Boniface, it is alleged, imprisoned his predecessor in a castle and had him blinded and his tounge torn out. Poor Celestine died not long after he resigned. Boniface went on to alienate just about everybody. He issued the famous bull, Unam Sanctam in which he claimed that all secular rulers were directly responsible to the pope and that he could remove them any time he saw fit. (Malta???) This so enraged the kings and princes of Europe that it marked the beginning of the end of the pope’s power to intervene in European affairs. The more things change…
Thanks for sharing and prayers for Cardinal Burke. Hopefully he can continue to fight the good fight, even from Guam.
If this is true then it seems that Pope Francis, of happy memory of the Dictatorship of Mercy, is creating his own successor. Odd, he makes Burke bigger every time he exiles him. The Holy Spirit always has the last word.