St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that servile fear is of the kind that a servant feels before his master — essentially, a fear of punishment. “Accordingly, ” St. Thomas writes, “if a man turn to God and adhere to Him, through fear of punishment, it will be servile fear; but if it be on account of fear of committing a fault, it will be filial fear, for it becomes a child to fear offending its father.” Elsewhere, servile fear is defined as “Selfish fear based on dread of pain to oneself that would follow if another were offended. It is the fear of punishment for wrongdoing, without being motivated by honor or a sense of duty, and least of all by love.” While servile fear “may co-exist with filial fear,” — and indeed, St. Thomas argues that “servile fear is from the Holy Ghost” — it is to be remembered that “purely servile fear, with no love of God but only self-love that fears the divine punishments, is at least in theory, inconsistent with the true love of God.”
In practical terms, servile fear is that fear which is primarily motivated by self-love. It seeks to avoid the loss of some good or goods, position, or status, or even the loss of Heaven out of the love of self — not the love of God.
It is of this species of fear to which many Catholic faithful, exasperated by the failure of leadership they perceive among their priests and bishops, accuse the clergy of falling prey. However, one thing is often overlooked when people discuss “fearful” shepherds — especially when they are quick to call them cowards — is that their first duty — after Loving God above all things and obeying Him no matter the consequences to themselves — is to love their neighbor as themselves, by forming, nourishing, and protecting the spiritual children of their particular flock.
One of the things I have spent much time on as a pastor is giving council to parents over their legitimate fears for their children (and their fears are legion.) Every good pastor has many of the same fears for his spiritual children that biological parents have for their children, and the primary fear is that they will be led astray.
There are, consequently, many pastors who may not speak out publicly in such a way that they are openly challenging the problems in the Universal Church, but this does not mean that they are not speaking out in their parishes — from their pulpits, in the confessional, or in the spiritual counsel they give to the members of their flock. They try to nourish and guide the souls entrusted to their care according to the fullness of the Catholic Faith even when their own bishops — or even the pope himself — are not, and they do so as a direct response to what those bishops and the pope are doing and saying.
They do this in order to keep their spiritual children safe from spiritual harm. And many of them have a legitimate concern that if they raised their voices in protest outside the parish walls, they might well be removed in retribution. The question that haunts them is, “If such a thing were to happen, who would be sent to replace me?” They know that the wolves and hirelings far outnumber the faithful shepherds and that if they are removed for speaking the truth to the whole world, those who would likely take their places would be chosen because they will not speak the truth to the parish, let alone to the world.
It is for this reason — a concern for what will become of their spiritual children — that many pastors of souls remain silent in the ‘press’, while they are anything but silent from the pulpit, the classroom, or the tables of the parishioners who invite them into their homes.
When I reflect on the fears that I have about being removed, excommunicated, or laicized for speaking the truth, I cannot deny that the questions of, “What shall I do? How will I live?”, arise in my mind. These are natural fears, but they are not the most pressing; these are the “servile fears”, and they are usually immediately quelled upon recourse to prayer and an act of spiritual abandonment to God. The fear that isn’t quelled so easily, is: when I am gone, what shall happen to my spiritual children?
Just recently I had several parishioners, at different times, express to me how they hoped that I would be able to stay here past the time of my current assignment because they have grown in their faith and know the wasteland that surrounds them in the various parishes in my small deanery. Their concerns were not because they thought I might be removed for speaking the truth, even though I have told the parishes I serve that this is a real possibility (I have spoken the hard truth several times at diocesan meetings with the bishop, and even with members of the laity present.) They were simply aware that even in the normal course of events, a pastor who gives bread instead of stones has become a rarity.
A priest — especially a parish priest, and most especially a pastor — is, as his title aptly suggests, a father. Thus, his natural place is in his home with his spiritual family. This is why the post-conciliar practice of shuffling the pastoral deck every few years is often so destructive to parish life. What would we say about a natural family that got a ‘new’ father every six or twelve years? Why is it considered a tragedy when an orphan is moved from foster home to foster home? This constant change in the paternal relationship is often a recipe for disaster that often begets chaos and ruin. I have expressed this concern to my bishop, and requested to be allowed to remain in my little parishes until I die, because they are my family and I am a father to them. That is not to say that tending to my spiritual family is always a picnic! Even so, I love them and desire to remain with them so that I can lead as many of them to Eternal Salvation as is possible by the Grace of God.
I have been in my assignment for several years and from the beginning had a parishioner who attacked my character and made life difficult. I prayed for him often and even rebuked him publicly and warned him of hell. After almost eight years he came to me and repented, and I absolved him and he died in a state of grace. Being a priest is the greatest blessing there is, and being separated from one’s flock, even the difficult ones, is the greatest suffering there is for a priest. This is what many of them fear because they know Hell is real and that many of their children will end there if they are not constantly guided and nourished with the Saving Truth of Jesus Christ.
What I always tell parents is what I must hear myself: God is in charge and if your children refuse your good council you must continue to pray, fast and do penance for them to merit actual graces for them so that they may repent and be saved. The vast majority of Faithful Catholics are so, because of Faithful Parents: naturally and spiritually. The fact that there are Faithful Catholics is due to the fact that there are Faithful Shepherds who taught them and nourished them with the Holy Catholic Faith, and much of that was face to face in a parish setting or at a conference or a retreat — in other words, through personal encounters, not through strongly worded essays in the paper or online. There is much to be gained through the Catholic Internet, but the people of God need shepherds of flesh and blood who will feed them the True Faith in their parishes, or they will perish.
It is my plea to you, therefore, that you resist rash judgment when it comes to the priests whom you wish would break their silence and shout the truth about the emperor’s wardrobe malfunction from the rooftops. Do not assume that their public reticence equals cowardice or consent. Please pray for the good shepherds that even now work amongst the Lord’s sheep. Pray that they are not inhibited by servile fear, and that that they will be governed instead by the Fear of the Lord and His Love above all things, but also remember that this does not necessarily mean that all of them need to preach to the whole world via the internet or the media. If, however, that is what God is calling them to, pray that they are able to discern it, and do so with Holy Boldness.
When the time comes for the majority of the good shepherds to be driven into exile — and that time seems to have already begun in some quarters — they will need to be supported by you, the faithful laity. They will need you to take them into your homes, to be succored and sheltered. They will need help with their debts and obligations, as many of them are too old or limited to be truly gainfully employed elsewhere. And they need to hear from you, the faithful laity, those face to face reassurances that, should the day come, you will support in this manner. Without such support, then the message being sent to these priests by the laity who most ardently desire their boldness is that they must go to Calvary alone.
Even Jesus went to Calvary with a faithful few who accompanied Him and remained with Him in His Holy Agony.
It seems to me that the Church at this time finds herself mystically within the following verses of Revelation (12:13-17):
So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
The woman, of course, is Mary. But Mary is also the archetype of Holy Mother Church, who has been and is being persecuted by the dragon, who will make war upon the faithful until Our Lord Jesus Christ comes again in glory.
Truly a most heipful article. I am so worried about some of the children and young adults in my family that it makes me cry … i am cowardly about speaking out. ‘Living together’; ss unions; etc. They will turn on me .. why am i afraid so? Yes, selfish. I beg God for prudence and fortitude and the right opening. I sorrow for the priests and they have my prayers. Would that i could offer them earthly shelter from the storms. Pray those who can will.
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My son lives with his ‘fiancee’ who is a pagan and really does not care if they marry or not. They have a child! My son still goes to Mass on Sunday (should not receive Holy Communion and has been told this). But people nowadays can “live in sin” and it is more than just acceptable in this society. The fiancée will not set a date. I am concerned! And my words and the words of his uncle are heard but not taken to heart. Sometimes there just are not any words. But one can continue to pray always for the salvation of their dear ones; so many of us have loved ones who have lost the faith. It does not help that “the Church” or rather the men running it seem to be leaving the faithful to their own devices. They have not taught the faithful in the pews for decades now–in a general sense. And we cannot trust what comes from corrupt Rome. So many of the faithful, who deserve better, are like orphans…with no spiritual fathers.
Boy, I hear you Maggie and Sweet Caroline! A lot of us are in this boat with kids and relatives. We are certainly not the lone rangers with the dissent that has been going on in the Church for 50+ years! Tried to teach my child at home AND with the help of the Church …….which I received NADA! I fought with them on several issues on several different occasions to no avail. I hold myself partially responsible for not fighting HARD ENOUGH and actually TRUSTING the Church to compliment me and teach truth, but it didn’t happen. The ‘men running it’ Maggie, have not only not taught the faithful, including our children the truth for decades now, but in some cases they have taught the OPPOSITE of truth. Seems we have been undermined at the deepest level.
My son is divorced and living with a girl who was like one of our kids once. Known her since she was 16. His wife is a severe alcoholic. I think she will die of it soon. He took his children for counseling from a priest when they were small and mom was drinking badly. The priest later appeared in all the papers as one of the more prominent abusers. To my son the church has let him down so washing the ground with tears and storming heaven with pleas is my only resource now. It’s true that our children are a lost generation. I am sorry for what you are going through. It is our daily suffering to have to worry about. We are also lost. We can’t listen to Rome anymore. Thank God for the good and true priests. I can’t imagine what their lives, which they gave to God, are like. I’m pray for your son, too.
It is heart breaking. I have a similar worry with my son. We’ll pray for each other and our sons … And the poor priests … I.m guessing that some of the went through seminary at a really bad time. We need to pray and sacrifice for them all for what would we do without the Sacraments? I hear you!
I would like to say that my main hope with this article, other than the Laity supporting their good priests via a face to face encounter of Truth and Love, is that my brother priests would read this article and take it to heart. That they would abandon themselves to the Love of Almighty God and nurture their children on the True Bread of Heaven. That they would speak to them the Truth in Holy Love from the Pulpit of Grace and do all that they can to lead their flock to the Eternal Pasture of Heaven. That they would reject servile fear, in the sense of displeasing men and being subjected to their temporal wrath, and truly preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has done form the beginning.
I love you my brothers in Christ. Let us pray for one another and do penance for our beloved Bride the Church. Let us be watchful Shepherds and bark out the warning of these present times to our little children, so that they may run from the wolves and hirelings and cling to the Lord through the Intercession of Our Most Blessed Holy Mother, the Ever-Virgin Mary. Amen.
Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom and Spouse of the Holy Ghost, be near us now in this dark hour descending upon us, and keep us ever faithful and true. Pray for many more holy priests, such as those who expressed their love and devotion here on this forum. Thank you God for all of our holy priests and laity who strive to know, love, serve and encourage the Faith in others.
AMEN Phyllis…..AMEN!!
I am grateful for your heartfelt post, Father.
You ask: “What shall I do? How will I live?”
Of one man, it is written in the Scripture:
“He (Paul) paid them a visit: and then, since they were brothers of the same craft (both were tent-makers) he stayed and worked with them. Every sabbath he held a disputation in the synagogue, trying to convince both Jews and Greeks by confronting them with the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 18:3-4
St. Paul made tents to support himself even as he spread the Gospel throughout the scattered Christian communities.
I mean this as neither disrespect or criticism (I am riddled with faults) but when you pose the question:
“when I am gone, what shall happen to my spiritual children?”
might not there be an element of pride in that sentiment and a certain lack of trust underpinning such thoughts?
Remember that before the triumph of the Lamb is achieved this prophecy will be fulfilled:
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.” Revelation 13:7
My prayer for you, Father is this:
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. – Numbers 6:24-26
Amen.
I couldn’t read the whole article you wrote, when I got half way through I found it so weak, so cowardly, filled with so many excuses for not telling the Truth, I couldn’t read more. Fr. Rp you should read what the sedevacantists write about the Novus Ordo church, I’m not sedevacantist but I must say they are the first group of Catholics I have encountered who seem to have the courage to face the Truth, address the blatant corruption in the Catholic Church. You seem to be playing on the emotions of “I won’t speak out as I want to stay here with you an protect you” Hope you don’t mind me saying as one Father with kids to a another spiritual father, or as one man to another, grow some balls and start to publicly denounce the corruption in the church and stop being scared to loose your comfortable lifestyle ? thats your job man…Father. Check out http://www.novusordowatch.org these people challenge the corruption, if we had Catholic priests like these people we would have a Catholic Church
Read the post of Mr. Majestyk (above) posted several hours before your own. Read especially the first and second paragraphs. Zero in on what he says about “the zealot” in his parish. You seem, perhaps, to be on the same path that zealot chose one day, one that leads to endlessly warm days.
Read this http://www.novusordowatch.org and before calling a person a zealot, ask yourself what you have ever stood up for in your life? And ask yourself if you are willing to make yourself unpopular in the eyes of men to gain favour in the eyes of God. Look for the Truth but be prepared for it to shake you to the bone…St Paul „with fear and trembling work out your salvation „ get it?
Calm down, Paul, or you’ll convince us beyond any hint of a doubt that you are indeed….a zealot.
Johnny study the Truth, but be careful, you might be scared when you realize what it means for you, my advice start praying the Rosary every day to fortify you for what you are about to discover.
Again, calm down, Paul. Here are some facts for you: (1) I pray all 20 decades of the Rosary every day and have for many years now. I have not missed a day and, with the help of my guardian angel, will not miss one in the future. (2) I once very publicly resigned my post as state VP of a teachers’ union because the union decided to support legalized abortion. I lost many friends by doing so. (3) I withdrew [again very publicly] from the K of C local where I was a 3rd degree knight after demanding a state legislator be thrown out of the local for supporting pro-sodomy and pro-abortion legislation. I demanded and got the local to sponsor a “trial” of this wayward fellow knight, but the brothers rallied around HIM when the affair finished. Again, I lost many friends for doing so. (4) I visited my bishop at his home in the chancery years ago to confront him face to face. He had been deeply involved in covering up the homosexual crimes of priests in the diocese. It seemed wrong to simply sit in the pews and to protest the outrages with other Catholics without talking personally with the man in charge.
Why do I tell you these things? Certainly not to gain personal plaudits; I could not care less about that. Rather, it is to convince you that you can be quite wrong in you snap judgments, both about me and about Fr. RP.
Calm down Johnny, I am not judging you, remember it was you calling me the Zealot. Re Fr. Rp i am not judging the man I am however judging what he writes, he is publicly declaring that because he cares for his flock, his spiritual children , he and other priests like him choose not to confront the diabolical. Behavior in the Church. Christ said we had to love him more than our own family. That means love the Truth. Sometimes priests, even though with emotional sentimental intentions need to be given a shake and told to wake up from their romantic dream of what is happening at the moment, picturing themselves as the “ I love you guys” tearfully letting us know what they put up with is pathetic. They need to be first and foremost defenders of the Faith..that is a real Father
No, I didn’t call you a zealot. I merely referred you to Mr. Majestyk’s description of a zealot that he once knew and cautioned you that your intemperate remarks suggested something similar. You do nothing in this latest post to change that impression. But I’ve said my piece so I’ll leave it to others here to blast your presumption as I am sure they will.
You say “No, I didn’t call you a zealot.” but your comments above include”You seem, perhaps, to be on the same path that zealot chose one day,”and “Paul, you seem to read as a zealot” and “Calm down, Paul, or you’ll convince us beyond any hint of a doubt that you are indeed….a zealot” Johnny you seem to read as a person with either a very short memory or you simply won’t admit the Truth. As you seem to have a decent enough memory judging your long list of all the good things you have done in the past, I must presume you are not capable of telling the Truth, but I’ve said my piece, I wish you all the best in your search for the Truth.
Paul, if you want a debate on the sede thesis, I recommend reading “True Pope, False Pope.” If you don’t want to read it, just listen to the highlights on youtube in two one hour interviews with John Salza by Brother Andre regarding that. It’s succinct and covers all the bases.
My parents have been sedes for thirty years. I know why, and don’t view them as outside the Church, well knowing St. Anselm’s words that because of the great confusion during the Arian crisis, there were, especially among the lay, many true Catholics that appeared in the Arian camp, and likewise some who seemed to be Catholics in the desert but were not so. In any case, there’s no convincing my parents. I don’t think they can grasp it, and no authority has addressed their concerns: and that is key imo. They have been ignored for forty years now; they have not been corrected in charity by the authority, and the real problems have not been addressed, barely even acknowledged. In any case, Siscoe and Salza do point out the errors of sedes, and no one has refuted them.
John R Thank you very much for your comments, it is very helpful to hear other views, we keep trying to work out our salvation, God bless
You cannot separate Fr. RP from his writing. That sniveling remark of yours and your 3 year old tantrum are beneath contempt as is your more-Catholic-than-the-rest-of-you posture. That kind of emotional masterbation is self accusatory. You can have it.
Winslow, before you attack me, ask yourself why a Priest is using the second most important duty of a priest i.e tending to his Flock as an excuse for not doing his first most important duty to Loving God above all things and obeying Him no matter the consequences to themselves. Fr. Rp is saying that he does not need to speak out, what he and perhaps you won’t accept is that it is precisely by speaking out that a priest protects his flock.
I don’t think that a priest who recognizes the dependence his flock has come to have on him — particularly if he is in a diocese where there are few orthodox priests — is romanticizing anything by keeping his head down and teaching his flock the truth.
The job of the parish priest is to tend to the souls given over to his care. If he is to be a warrior who confronts the world, he is to do it first from his pulpit, from his confessional, and in the counsel he gives. There are times when his duties may require him to take his fight outside of the parish bounds, but as someone who has spent most of my life travelling to get to parishes where I can stomach the brand of Catholicism offered by the pastor, I appreciate very much when a priest is willing to resist his natural urge to fight so that he can instead form and care for his faithful. I expect that NOT speaking out is a sacrifice for many of them, because they’d love nothing more than to throw some punches.
There’s a saying that used to hang in an office I worked in: “Don’t confuse activity with achievement.” Shouting into the wind has its purposes — it’s what I do every day — but I have little doubt that when all is said and done, the parish priest who stayed faithful to his quiet duties will have done more for souls than I will have by shouting the truth from the mountaintops.
What is the will of God for each of us at this moment is what is essential. If the article was read in its entirety with meekness, it was obvious this priest understands the current sign of the times. Thank you for sharing his article. It gave me much to ponder and pray over.
This is a good assessment that I sum up as “selecting the hills to die on” in my above comment.
It’s a tough thing to ponder tho, as if we look back, surely we can see with 20/20 hindsight times when “What if?” comes to mind. That is, “What if?” many more priests stood up for Truth and Tradition in some extra-ordinary way say 30 or 40 years ago, possibly in the true spirit of Canon 212 resisting modernist Bishops, etc. I actually wonder about this from time to time. Where would we be now? Speculation of the most insidious type!! 🙂
As Professor Seifert recalled St Peter saying, “We must obey God rather than man” {certainly?} applies more than we have seen, yet…taking that to the extreme and where not founded by true doctrine and where personal opinion becomes dogma, we have…the Revolt of Protestantism and chaos.
Come to think of it, guys, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE MODERNISTS. THEY WERE BRAVE ENOUGH AND STUCK THEIR NECKS OUT WHEN BISHOPS WERE GENERALLY ORTHODOX AND…..BISHOPS DIDN’T DISCIPLINE THEM {which tells us a lot about the Bishops…}.
In the end, obviously, each priest must examine his own situation and make a decision of his own.
Just like everybody else trying to live out the faith in the workplace does.
So what exactly are the hills to die upon? From what I can tell, the following (non-exclusive) listing are NOT the hills to die upon:
the 6th commandment
the sacrament of marriage
the sacrament of confession
the sacrament of communion
the sacrament of holy orders
religious indifference
ecumenism
religious liberty
proselytism as grave sin
proselytism as solemn nonsense
divorce and remarriage
abortion
contraception
homosexuality
same sex marriage
universalism
annihilation of the soul
all religions lead to heaven — atheism too
hell as non-existent or near empty
the devil as a philosophical construct
I could go on, but I think the point has been made.
At what point is there nothing left of the “faith” to defend? At what point is the water so hot that the frog can no longer jump out?
It’s not about points of teaching here; each one is a hill worth dying on. It’s about the particular confrontation with a person, the specific meeting with a bishop…
Why is this so hard for people??
I think it is both, Jafin.
I was actually going to post a very similar thing as you say here, but in fact, many teachings ARE up for grabs today. So imagine the priest who is stuck in a diocese run by a heretics.
HE may have to “die” on a hill of what is actually well-established dogma!
For example, how are German priests doing who want to affirm the “Polish version” of teaching on marriage and divorce?
And yes, I call it the “Polish version” to make a point; THAT is where we ARE. Right NOW. It’s no longer settled dogma, it’s “your interpretation” or “my interpretation”. Functionally-speaking. We need this stopped immediately or we are functioning no differently than do the liberal Lutherans and the Methodists and the Anglicans.
It is sad, but to repeat, some of those hills are actually well-established dogmas now.
That specific meeting with the bishop will happen when hell freezes over. (Sorry, I forgot, they don’t believe in that mythical place called hell.) Did I mention the six paged single spaced typewritten letter with headings that I wrote to said Bishop, which was entirely ignored? I had not intended to be prophetic when I stated my issues, concerns and warnings, but thanks to the investigative journalism of a local TV news channel, things went “viral” so to speak. Massive public embarrassment — that too — meant nothing. Truly appalling public relations. Shall I sing the line from Les Miserables for you: “Nothing changes, nothing ever will.” It isn’t difficult at all except if one is in denial.
Yup.
That’s a powerful list.
I actually have a copy I paste as it is a list of topics that are often taught in different ways than were previously taught. This stuff started to jump out at me as a convert due to the doctrines associated with the fixed teaching of the Church which was/is very powerful for me. In practice, that is, “on the street” so-to-speak, many teachings have changed in certain dioceses for example, or under certain priests, and in the absence of discipline by the local Ordinary, the CC has effectively become in such places indistinguishable from the Episcopalians.
Here’s mine:
EENS, homosexuals, indissolubility of marriage, suicide, Limbo, presumption of God’s mercy, adultery, “remarriage”, just war, contraception, Real Presence, responsibility of the prelature/Pope to defend the faith, religious indifferentism, Islam, Protestantism, Luther, Communism, death penalty, relationship of husband and wife in marriage, unity of the Faith/”synodalism”, inerrancy of Scripture, etc.
Indeed, none other than ex-Pope Ratzinger has said the dogma of EENS itself has been abandoned after V2!!!
Who today will defend that dogma in anything like the terms it was affirmed in, say, Cantate Domino?
You forgot “concrete situations”, Rod!
Edited to correct my grievous error!
Susan have you talked to your Bishop about these concerns?
Surely you jest. Dialogue. There ain’t no such and it isn’t for want of trying. Their idea of dialogue is 15 minutes on hold hoping that inconvenient caller gives up and ends the call. Letters? You mean the ones that are never acknowledged let alone answered. But your idea was a good one. I hope it helped you feel better. I would do better talking to the dog.
Yes I am jesting with you…i needed to book end your rant…lighten up.
P.S. You aren’t going to win any battles until you do whats currently happening in political world…you must broom the Catholic Churchians & the Catholic Neocon Leadership that run interference for the saboteurs, heretics & Marxists (Cultural primary) in the church. They shoot their ownside & compromise with their opposition.
It’s pathetic
Steve, Fr Rp admits in this article referring to priests “their first duty — AFTER Loving God above all things and obeying Him no matter the consequences to themselves — is to love their neighbor as themselves” so AFTER loving God above all things. There is a Papal encyclical, (sorry I can’t remember which one) that says to this effect “many a serious error would have been resolved had a Catholic had the courage to stand up immediately and expose it”.
For FAR TOO LONG Catholic priests have not told the Truth because they are scared to hurt peoples feelings, for far too long Parish priests have tried to appeal to peoples emotional feelings instead of their logical intellect and conscience, thats why Catholics today are scared to point out error because they think “you are judging people” telling someone that what they are doing is wrong is not judging them, God judges people, he is the final judge, its our duty to point out errors that people make. and for Far too long Catholic priests have never taken a Catechism in their hands and taught what is in it.
Steve the problem today is that men are no longer men, masculinity has gone out of the church and out of society. Priests are supposed to be the highest example of masculinity, strong, brave, self disciplined men, who fearlessly defend Christ and his word. When did you last see that from a priest? Today we have to be so worried that we hurt someones feelings that there is no room left for honest debate. You can see by many of the replies to this blog how the people here are offended that I have hurt Fr Rp “feelings”. Father Rp even admits his first duty is to love God and obey Him and then goes on to describe how he is not going to speak out giants the blatant sacrilege going on in the church because he’s taking care of his flock, meanwhile the Anti-Catholic Priests and Bishops speak out and take control of the church. A good priest should be leading Catholic men into battle not making excuses for why he’s not going to speak out!
Re. your last paragraph faithful priests and your work, both are important, your work gives Catholics all around the world a place to meet virtually and discuss the situation we face, Remember many Catholics do not have a faithful priest, they have “a wolf in sheeps clothing” for a priest. If you allow your website to remain open to honest dialogue, where men can debate without worrying about “hurting each others feelings” (we are not little girls), then I would say your website will bring many to the Truth, thats what I hope your website is all about.
“meanwhile the Anti-Catholic Priests and Bishops speak out and take control of the church.”
I have and will again try to ask WHY priests and bishops did not and still DON’T directly attack by name and forcefully those who dissent from Church teaching, condemning them and their teaching. You all know the drill. It’s always couched in terms of “My good friend and I disagree”-type BS just like our politicians who are always reaching across the aisle.
Folks, we need a new Inquisition. This stuff is not going to stop until we get one. Period. Call it whatever, but we need a clearcut of the forest in our eyes. Cuz it’s overgrown and way past harvest time!
As to your points on the effeminacy of the Church leaders, Cardinal Burke has gone one further and described the whole Church culture as effeminate.
Burke:
“Sadly, the Church has not effectively reacted to these destructive cultural forces; instead the Church has become too influenced by radical feminism and has largely ignored the serious needs of men.”
” The Church becomes very feminized. ”
http://www.newemangelization.com/uncategorized/cardinal-raymond-leo-burke-on-the-catholic-man-crisis-and-what-to-do-about-it/
It’s a pretty straightforward beat-down of those who have so effectively neutered the Church.
But without naming names…naturally.
The lunatics have now taken over the asylum because we have let down our defenses. We must defend the Citadel.
To be certain: you haven’t hurt my feelings.
To be honest, it didn’t concern me if I did, because its not about feelings and you know that. Its about a priest teaching the Truth. To be perfectly frank I don’t trust a priest that shirks his obligation to speak the Truth. In fact I find it suspicious that a priest would even suggest that he should not speak up to defend the Truth. It seems there is always a good reason for Novus Ordo Priests to avoid standing up for the Truth of the Catholic Church, and its perhaps because they are freemasons or can you give a better reason.
One word Paul: PRUDENCE
Paul, I don’t know how to make it more clear: not speaking the truth on blogs and in newspapers or with a bullhorn outside of St. Peter’s Square is not a failure to speak the truth at all.
We all have duties according to our state in life. Sometimes, in our desire to do some other good, we can neglect that. It happens to me when I work too much on the site here and don’t spend enough time with my family or teaching my kids. Or, in the case of one family I knew, it happened when two parents who were very active in the pro-life movement became so caught up in their apostolate they didn’t realize that their oldest son, who was supposed to be watching their younger children when they’d go to big pro-life events, was throwing immoral parties in their absence and corrupting the innocence of their younger children.
A priest has a duty first and foremost to his flock. In the days before the Internet and airline travel, most priests rarely left their little parish. Their battlefield is for the souls of the people entrusted to their care. If they confront the evils of the world (or the Church) in teaching those people the truth — which these days almost certainly includes preaching against the errors coming from Rome — they are not “avoiding standing up for the Truth of the Catholic Church.”
I would only add, humbly, that the first duty of any soul, whether it be priest or laity or bishop or cardinal is to never jeopardize one’s soul for anything or anybody.
I am not in any way suggesting Father RP is doing that, for I believe he is suffering greatly, and under great
watchful eye from those in his diocese. I believe Father RP stated as much.
What I hope and pray most ferverantly for: is for every priest to never compromise their soul, even if that means fear of abandoning their flock; for no good fruit will be born from it anyway.
Hold steadfast dear priests, and let the evil rear its face up front and personal: when it should come: than STAND and know your Mother in Heaven is wrapping her Mantle around you. All will be well.
Paul,
Perhaps you were merely getting notes from the front lines before you jump to your conclusions people need to be aware of the nasty game going on and it is evil.
now you are surely losing your argument Paul
Hi Kathy, I am not sure what is the point of your comment other than to make a snide remark, I can’t see how that is helpful. You see Kathy, Its not about winning an argument, I couldn’t care less to win the argument, because I am not having an argument I am having a straight discussion with some very good men. You are women and perhaps you see it as an argument, but men don’t, they talk and can get quite annoyed with each other and 5 minutes later they have forgotten it and can be laughing and enjoying a beer, thats men you see. What is going is this. Its about getting to the Truth of the matter, A Priests job is to stand and fight for the Truth not give excuses for not doing so, thats the reason why the anti Catholic priests have made so much ground in the Catholic church, weakness and a lack of masculinity in the church has wrecked its foundations. and the same can be said of society today, the sickness of feminism has poisoned all aspects of society, women have forgotten how to be women, ask yourself Kathy are you proud that when women got the vote one of the first things they campaigned for was abortion and the right to kill their own children. As a women are you proud of that? Abortion was not legal until womon got the vote.
Fr Rp, there are many questions that are not answered , in the past we have blindly trusted our priests, those days are sadly gone, it is with caution we view our priests and sadly have come to question their motives. We have to find out as much as possible about our faith without the priest as a guide, in the past he was the one who guided. Why did that start? Maybe it started the day that priests decidedly to stop standing up and defending the Truth clearly and forcefully.
Johnny, might I respectfully suggest you drop the Luminous Mysteries. Our Lady gave us fifteen decades, and all the times she has made an appearance with a Rosary since then, it has been a fifteen decade Rosary. If she wanted another decade, she would have told us so. The additional decade is a post-conciliar “novelty” like much else that is happening now.
Respectfully, NIdahoCatholic
With you on that
Others have told me this but failed to convince me. I find meditating on the Luminous Mysteries very fruitful. It’s hard to understand why anyone would think meditation on ANYTHING in Jesus’ life is either a waste of time or
perhaps worse.
Check out The New Rosary by Christopher Ferrara. I used to think the LM were ok but after reading The New Rosary I went back to the traditional 15 decades. It’s a little booklet, short and easy to read
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B074HSWCNQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1510189324&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=the+new+rosary+christopher+ferrara&dpPl=1&dpID=41b6r75cd2L&ref=plSrch
This is the link for the Kindle version.
Margaret, I do a lot of reading but, naturally, I haven’t time to read everything that comes my way. You, I know from reading here at 1P5, are a kind person, sincere and knowledgeable about the faith. Perhaps you could sum up what convinced you from this book. I’ve read what is available to see at Amazon and, to be frank, I don’t find Mr. Ferrara’s arguments especially persuasive. My thoughts are that not all innovation is bad (but all doctrinal innovation most certainly IS), so even though despicable characters like Bugnini may have wanted changes in the Rosary, that in no way means all change or proposed additions are necessarily bad. There have been over 20 centuries many positive changes in practice and, if we were to adopt Chris Ferrara’s no-holds-barred intransigence, nothing would ever have changed. Confession, to take just one example, would be a much less appetizing exercise. For example, I for one am quite happy that my Irish ancestors visited the tariff penance (i.e. Celtic penitential practices) on the Church at large in the mid-seventh century. Mr. Ferrara, I suspect, back then would have been a champion of established severity, all in the name of tradition.
Unlike what I sense is Mr. Ferrara’s POV, I know that not all innovation is either good or bad, that it depends entirely on what is involved. Personally, I have found the Luminous Mysteries to be what they proclaim themselves to be, viz. light-giving. I cannot think of any reason one would not want to meditate on them, but many reasons one might choose to do so. That said, it is an entirely personal choice. If it disturbs one to recite them, perhaps he should refrain. If it does not, perhaps he should at least consider adopting the practice. De usibus, non disputandum.
Here’s my take for what it’s worth.
I do not like the addition of the LM to the Rosary but I DO like the LM as a meditation of their own.
The mysteries themselves are foundational and powerful Truths of the faith. as such, they form a wonderful set of thoughts, doctrines, events to ponder and pray over.
I wish Pope JPII had introduced them merely as a devotional all their own, rather than attempting to {as usual???} CHANGE some ancient element of the faith.
Rod, I could be wrong, but I think in fact that he did introduce them in the fashion you champion, viz. as an optional add-on not any kind of required insertion. At least that is how I interpret them. Regardless, I have gained what I consider to be valuable insights from meditating on them. For example, it came to me one day while praying the second mystery, the wedding at Cana, that it is important to notice what Mary DIDN’T say. She did not ask Jesus if he could perform a miracle; she merely assumed he could. For me, that means she knew from previous experience in the Holy Family’s household that indeed he could easily remedy a difficult situation. No great shakes, I know, but it seems to raise ever so slightly the veil on life in that most important of all homes in Nazareth.
Yes, as I understand it, tho, he intro’d them as a component of the Rosary {optional, yes, but still}.
I think, just my opinion, that prudentially, it would have been best to have given them to the world as a separate meditation because the structure of the Rosary works best with the Traditional setup or some meaning, for those who seek to draw it out, is lost otherwise.
Paul, whatever NOW gets right, its ethos is schismatic, prideful, and disloyal. A willingness to stand against error with other error is not a virtue, even if the act of “sticking it to the man” scratches an itch.
NOW can tell you some of what’s wrong with the Church. But they can’t give you the truth, because they’ve abandoned it.
Aww, that’s going to sting them over at NovusOrdoWatch. Based on several TRADcasts, they seem to like and respect you, Steve. 🙂
They are just papal positivists in different clothes. They’ve backed themselves into a corner they’ll never get out of. It’s sad. That way lies damnation — although in this case, the “invincible ignorance” we keep hearing about will hopefully play a mitigating role.
Mottramism gets everywhere.
I hear you.
Steve, I think it would be good for you to invite them to present their arguments and you present the counter arguments, let their be an honest debate, in that way we arrive at the Truth, isn’t that what we are all searching for, we want their souls to get to heaven and they want our souls to get to heaven, it’s in our mutual interest and an great act of charity to gets this issue discussed. In some ways I get the feeling the Sedevacantists (if they are indeed right) could feel a bit like the other brother in the Prodigal son, the one that stayed with the Father, and the one that was not to happy with the brother that left and held some latent annoyance about it.
“A willingness to stand against error with other error is not a virtue, even if the act of “sticking it to the man” scratches an itch.”
That’s a way with words.
Absolutely right on Steve. I didn’t ‘plug into’ them for very long before discovering just that……NOW has abandoned the TRUTH!
I read Mr Majestyk comments, the „Zealot“ was the only real Catholic and the only real man in the room, he put Truth before material wealth, did the old wise priest get to spend his pension that he had saved all his life, no he died before he could use it. The Zealot as you call him was the real Catholic, he left because there were no Catholics in that church
Ahem. Paul, you seem to read as a zealot (Mr. Majestyk’s chosen moniker for his fellow rash parishioner, not mine) as well. You clearly missed this:
“Soon afterward, the good priest died (without the well-earned retirement) and the church building was closed and the parish families moved to a different church. 12 years later, the parish is thriving under a new bishop, a larger church building and fantastic pastors …and the zealot has left the Catholic Church.”
Johnny, you missed the point…keep searching for the Truth…ask your parish priest about the points made at the novusordowatch website. Ask him why there is such blatant heresy from the Vatican 2 council. Ask why JP 2 kissed the Koran and allowed a statue of Buddha to be Placed above the tabernacle in the Catholic church in Assisi, ask why John XIII was seen to be visiting the Freemasons, even is considered a Freemason etc etc etc Ask questions you might be very surprised if you are a Catholic that is.
Sedevacantism is a dead end. That said I don’t believe all sedes have cut themselves off from the Church. But, Paul, if they are the “first” you have seen, you have not read much at all. Many have exposed the errors and corruption. Generally, the sedes just see the surface problems and jump to judgements of men’s souls from the outward acts and words (and only the worst ones). The corruption is far deeper, and Popes like B16 and JPII have both good and bad. The truth is that the Church was FULLY infiltrated by Modernists in the reign of St. Pius X already. Generally, the SSPX, sedes, and the whole lot have only scratched the surface and themselves cling to many of the worst errors that arose in the 19th century. God has allowed the pastors to be “diaboiocally” disorientated, and I see that as signifying that they are not all at fault for their errors. It is a chastisement (and purgation too) sent by God to the general faithful for our own sins and lukewarmness and apostasy.
By the measure you judge you will be judged. If you judge the internal forum of others (priests, bishops and popes) for mere material errors, you likewise will be judged for those errors you hold unwittingly. It is “de fide” that there will be a continual line of popes (Pastor Aeternus, Vatican I Council). That means we can believe the CHurch will not defect, not by what our eyes see or what our human reason says, but by the supernatual virtue of Faith.
John R , thanks for your comments, by the “first” I mean as a group of Catholics who are challenging the corruption straight on. if you look at the Novusordowatch website you will read many interesting points such as the blatant heresy of Vatican 2 council etc. The question of whether Pope Francis is a heretic is very pertinent and as such a heretic cannot be Pope as such Sede vacante would be the precise term. When you say “God has allowed the pastors to be diabolically disorientated” are you being serious? Does that mean he wants paodophile priests, he wants false truth to be taught, he wants sacrilege on the Altar etc etc. Seriously? I cannot agree. “It is de fide that there will be a continual line of Popes” Is a heretic still a Pope? By default a heretic cannot be a Pope. “The Popes PJ2 have good and bad” you say, how on earth can a Pope kiss the Koran and allow a statue of Buddha to be placed on the Tebernacle in Assisi? Please explain? The True Church will not defect but don’t you think that many of these NO priests are feeding us emotional sweet tasting syrup which hides a deeper poison. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, you think we can do that by going allow with PF and his group in the Vatican? Is that the real church?I only ask , I am not a Sede but these guys are asking questions that any respectable person in a position of authority would ask.
While overall your articulation is coherent and compelling, I do not understand why you seem to refer to “the SSPX, sedes, and the whole lot” as having only “scratched the surface” and clinging to “the worst errors that arose in the 19th century.”
The SSPX are not sedevacantists. Can you please give specifics to justify your allegations concerning those “worst errors” as well?
Thank you.
I should not have thrown the SSPX together with the sedes. Nevertheless, even in the SSPX, few understand what the heresies of Modernism are in a deep way (esp. agnosticism as defined in Pascendi). No one recognizes the ArchModernist: or almost no one (I know two people only).
When Fellay said that he could adhere to 95% of the Vatican II documents, it indicates he doesn’t see how revolutionary each of those documents are and how as a whole they overturn all praxis in the Church: all to the worship of Man over the worship of God. And he is the head. As to the rank and file, what do they understand of Libertas Praestantissma and the grave error of false freedom? Of Americanism? esp. as to the encouraging self-will, a spirit of disobedience, anti-intellectualism, indifferentism and the active over the contemplative life? … not to mention all the cultural and societal revolutions that flow from these primary errors, which are everywhere embraced. And then there is the widespread infection of neo-Jansenism and of neo-palagianism (both predominant in all various groups, traditional and N.O. in the American Church, but Jansenism esp. among sedes).
There are good priests and others in SSPX, I have no doubt. And even a few among the sedes.
I would agree that there are good priests who take various ‘stances,’ although it is the latter as such that require scrutiny in terms of what they truly affirm and sometimes (but not always) imply.
I do not quite comprehend your intense rejection of Pope Leo xiii’s ‘Libertas Praetantissimum,’ which confirms many principles and positions articulated by St. Thomas Aquinas concerning human nature.
Yes, there is chaff admixed with wheat in the documents of Vatican II. But it is difficult to argue that every dot and tittle of each document was forged by ‘progressives.’ I, for one, have never encountered anyone able to go line by line through each and establish that heterodoxy is advocated in each phrase, paragraph, or section.
And this is why Bishop Fellay (and others) are trying to walk a narrow line, as it were.
But I fully grant that the visible Church is, for the present, stricken with profound disorders in its governance and discord concerning true belief and morality.
I support LIbertas wherein false liberty is warned of. Sorry
As to heterdoxy of every iota, of course you won’t find that. THere are many pages that are perfectly orthodox. I mentioned “praxis”. Thus in Gravissimum Educationis, nothing touches doctrine. However, it contradicts Pius XI on many particulars, and overturns the main aims of Catholic education, clearly made in Divini Illius Magistri, as well as all the means he encourages. In short, it puts Catholic education under the arm of the State, making it little more than secular state education with a gloss of piety and Catholic catechism (which are also called to be reformed).
Every rules of every order, the catechisms, the mass, the breviary, the governance by bishops, the governance in parishes, the governance of the national bishop councils (as well as who is to advise and direct them), in short every aspect of faith is changed. The revolution is fully detailed, especially through the ambiguities. In the case of Gravissimum, the very problems we see in Catholic schools are actually mandated by that document (and my expertise is in Catholic education, going back 2000 years — Pius XI’s encyclical is wonderful).
That’s why Fellay’s statement is alarming. But I’ve seen the problems in their own schools too, which I’ve visited, their flagship no less in the U.S. Not that they aren’t doing fine work. Just that they have the modern curriculum and even teach the Modern heresy (agnosticism) unwittingly.
And I’ve read all the V II documents both in grad school and a few years ago again. Some I did go through line by line in the Latin. But they are summed best by Paul VI in his opening speech for the closing session (also found in Gaudium et Spes): “nam etiam nos — immo nos prae ceteris — hominis sumus cultores.” “for we also — nay we before others — are worshipers of man.” This is at the root of all the apostasy we see before us now.
Your last paragraph refers to the allocution of Pope Paul VI at the last session of Vatican II. But “cultores” certainly does not mean worshipper in the context of his words. He had just said:
“Concilio tribuite, vos, nostra hac aetate cultores humanitatis, qui veritates rerum naturam transcendentes renuitis, iidemque novum nostrum humanitatis studium agnoscite: nam nos etiam, immo nos prae ceteris, hominis sumus cultores.”
“But we call upon those who term themselves modern humanists, and who have renounced the transcendent value of the highest realities, to give the council credit at least for one quality and to recognize our own new type of humanism: we, too, in fact, we more than any others, honor mankind.”
Any decent Latin dictionary will confirm that ‘cultor’ denotes ‘to care for’ or ‘nurture,’ with extended meanings of ‘respect,’ ‘honor,’ and by extension, ‘worship.’
He is asserting that the Church promotes a ‘new type of humanism’ which respects man more than that which is advocated by those who call themselves ‘modern humanists.’
This means, at least in the intention of Pope Paul VI, the humanism he defends is not that of ‘modern humanists,’ regardless as to what others may have been trying to make out events as they were unfolding at the Council.
Again, best regards.
Fair enough.. I will grant an ambiguity. However, just above that he says this.
Religio, id est cultus Dei, qui homo fieri voluit, atque religio – talis
enim est aestimanda – id est cultus hominis, qui fieri vult Deus, inter
se congressae sunt. Quid tamen accidit? Certamen, proelium, anathema?
Here, he suggests a peace between the religion of man (Cultus hominis) and the religion of God (cultus Dei). To give the most favorable interpretation, we could say that V II extends an olive branch to the cult that had already infiltrated the Church to the top and was set on its destruction for over 200 years. For the smoke of Satan had indeed infiltrated the Church.
John R Thankyou for you explanation and comments, it is much appreciated. I also believe the church will not defect but there are many points that need explaining. The Vatican 2 council and the Popes since V2 have changed the doctrine, e.g the church Jesus Christ founded IS the Romsn Catholic Church was changed to the church Jesus Christ founded SUBSISTS IN the Roman Catholic Church. This small change opened the door to the false doctrine as taught in JP 2 Catechism that God uses other churches as a means to salvation. By our eyes , human reason and super Natural Faith can you not agree that something has changed? Is the V2 Council the start of the operation of error which St Paul refers too? Please explain how you can accept the above changes in Doctrine and still claim it is the same church. Thankyou for your comments best regards Paul
The Doctrine cannot change. The Vatican II council did not make binding statements on Faith. It made statements at most that require “obsequium religiosum” which requires human assent of mind but not the supernatural virtue of Faith. It is not then infallible in any of its novelties. For most, it is best just to ignore the Council; it’s a source of confusion, and all the confusion comes from it. Go back to the certain teachings. IMO God allowed it to test us is all. He can work good through all the confusion. At this point, He alone can fix the mess. For our part we can only pray and go closer to Our Lord. Prayer, interior life, the rosary, adoration, mass: these are the real battle weapons. (Same with the CCC: earlier catechisms are much clearer.)
It definitely involves the “operation of error” as in all prior heresies too, imo. The heresy of Modernism had spread deeply already in the bosom of the Church.
You just don’t get it, do you Paul Bays? You have some nerve writing a scurrilous message like that one. You have no idea what faithful priests and bishops are going through today, even though you know what Pope Bergoglio has done to those who speak the truth.
You say you’re not a sedevacantist but you sure do admire them. Join them, then. Maybe you’ll have less to complain about.
Maybe go back and read the whole article before attacking.
i did, and the article got worse, so first he makes excuses why the Priests don’t do there duty to stand up for the Truth and defend it and then he wants us to look after them in their retirement.
That is not what the article said. He stated that many good priests are not staying silent, but rather are vocal within their flocks for as long as they can be to ensure the people directly under their spiritual guidance are fed the truth for as long as possible. I know a few good priests who are doing just that. This also was common in Poland during WWII and during the Communist regime. Regarding retirement, banishment and retirement are two different things. He was speaking of the persecution to come.
Maybe read Cardinal Sarah’s “The Power of Silence.” Remember Christ appeared to be keeping silent during his passion.
But you see, Father RP does speak Truth to his flock, whether it be in the confessional or privately to those who come for spiritual guidance. Do you not think that Father RP is suffering for this?
Now, the question seems to be; should a holy priest do ‘more’?
Witnessing the faith involves great sacrifice out of love, as you know.
Father RP, I should not speak for him, but from reading this priest’s words, is most likely preparing
for the eventual: THE LINE in the SAND, that he will not cross, but shall pick up his CROSS for Christ.
As laity, I think, we shall have to be the ” voices” who cry out and witness the faith in word and deed.
We must be the ones who pray for our priests to understand and truly believe that we shall be their with them as
their Calvary is coming. They are human, they have frailties and are prone to temptations that no man should have to endure. It is our job and our duty now……it is up to the laity to stay strong and perhaps let our priests know that ” we have their back” and that they must be ” TRUE to their priesthood”, even before any of us.
And that will mean, as it must, that each priest, each bishop and cardinal has a duty to put Christ first and trust that we the faithful laity, will be ” alright”…….for we shall be with them regardless.
If my priest goes……..I go with him.
I know of a couple of priests who live outside their dioceses because they were faithful and spoke the truth and are just cut loose.
And I do as well. PRAY FOR OUR PRIESTS!!! They are on the front lines in this war!
Yup and they have been given the “Black Spot” how effective are they now? The Line in the Sand will come when it comes…
And where are their faithful laity to be with them?
Have they been abandoned by them as well?
Paul–Any priest worth his salt is ready to live in a tent, if and when it comes to it. You have completely missed the point that we parish priests are called to tend the particular portion of the vineyard entrusted to us with absolute fidelity. That’s what FrRP is doing. That’s what I’m doing. I’m “powerless” to change unfaithful preaching and teaching at the parish next to mine or on the other side of the world. I DO have the power to make sure the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith is preached and taught in my parish. It is the devil and his cohorts who must always act hastily–not the faithful followers of Christ.
I know of more than a few who would. God be with you
FrBPJM, Thank you for your comments, I am sure there are some good priests who tend to the particular portion of the Vineyard but Fr RP. is making excuses that tending the flock is a good enough reason for not speaking out against what is going on in the church, its the opposite, speaking out IS how you tend the flock. But then I have simple question for you if I may ask. “Outside the Catholic church there is no Salvation” is that Correct or not?
Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control. (Singulari Quidem 7). Bl. Pius IX
Fr BPJM Thank you for your answer, could you then please kindly explain why the Catholic Church Prior to Vatican 2 stated clearly that “the Catholic Church is the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ” but Vatican 2 council changed what was perfectly clear to “the Catholic Church subsists in the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ”. why make something that is crystal clear unclear? The Sedevecantists believe it was to blur the meaning and therefore this gave the “anti catholics” who had taken control of the vatican the chance to introduce ecumenism and relativism, thats why the Vatican 2 catechism states that the other religions can lead people to salvation, that makes no sense. You can read it all here and watch the video https://novusordowatch.org/2016/08/introduction-to-sedevacantism-1/
Can you please explain how the simple Truth before Vatican 2 is not the same after Vatican 2?
Could you kindly give a simple answer as to how unchangeable Truth can change?
Paul: we have a pretty firm no-tolerance policy for sedevacantism here. Arguments in favor of their positions turn into impossibly circular debates. You’ve linked to Novus Ordo Watch at least three times in this thread. Please stop doing so, because one of truths of the Catholic faith is that “error has no rights,” and I’m about to enforce that.
Steve, I am not saying that I support sedevacantism, I am trying through these questions to get to an understanding of what is the Truth. Did Vatican 2 in effect change the church into a new different church , The Sedes seem to argue it did because they claim the Dogma changed. It’s all very confusing…
Steve, a couple of question if I may. “error has no rights” you say, but the Sedevacantists with concrete evidence are pointing out error in the Vatican 2 Church and its Popes, where does that leave us? Sedevecantists are pointing out what appears to be heresy from V2 Popes, are we supposed to be bury our heads in the sand and pretend we don’t see? If you choose to enforce a blocking of this comment , it’s your website , you can do that, but are you not interested to get to the bottom of the corruption in the Catholic Church, don’t you want to know the Truth? Instead of calling them names and saying what they say is error , why not show us Catholics why they are wrong. I would like to know because these issues effect our eternal soul.
Paul, read the arguments already made by others. The problem with proving sedes wrong is that they wrap their own lack of sensus fidei up in lots of quotations from popes and saints which they twist to their own wills and whims. Arguing with sedes is, for many, an opportunity to lose their faith, because in order to do battle with them on their own terms, one must have a more comprehensive knowledge of the body of Catholic thought than they do, and yet they spend ALL their time finding points that prove something is wrong, while the rest of us have been trying to prove that something is still right in our Church and that we shouldn’t leave it.
Entire books have been written by men more knowledgeable than I will ever be — True or False Pope being the most recent — and the sedes set upon the text to tear it to shreds. They don’t want to be convinced. They just want to be right.
But anyone who has actual faith — who believes in the indefectibility of the Church — knows that sedevacantism simply can’t be right. It’s a dead end. They cannot tell you how they will ever again have a pope they can be certain is a pope. They cannot tell you what deus ex machina solution might come to pass that would restore their faith. So their entire ethos is one of destruction: they believe the Church to be an imposter and as such, they attack it viciously, they mock it, they try to tear it down. There is something demonic (and the devil is certainly a legalist) in turning men who love Catholicism into some of its most potent enemies.
I do not have the time, the knowledge, or the inclination to treat of all their arguments on their merits. They have too many, and I’d have to spend all my time getting up to speed while doing nothing else. And as I posted in another comment above, I think Chesterton’s description of arguing with a madman certainly applies here: “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by clarity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.”
Steve, thanks for taking the time to share these thoughts, its much appreciated, and thanks for allowing this discussion on your website, I appreciate very much the masculine approach to dialogue from you, and Fr Rp , not getting offended simply having a straight talk and getting the points on the table. From what I am learning I begin to think that Vatican 2 maybe marked the beginning of the passion of the mystical body of Christ, his church, we have to fight to fight, work out our salvation with fear and trembling, lets pray to God that he will bring us each day closer to him. Paul
“They cannot tell you how they will ever again have a pope they can be certain is a pope.”
This right here.
Every single person, Pope or otherwise is a sinner. THAT alone is sufficient ammunition for them to create arguments undermining the faith.
The answer to the question is, they nver, ever WILL have a Pope, EVER.
Because if some great guy comes along, some splinter group of sedes will find a maggot in his past and build a “doctrinal” army against him.
I dare say, with sufficient historical data, we could, using their perverse approach, sink the boat of St Pius V.
If Salza and Siscoe are more knowledgeable than you’ll ever be, you shouldn’t be saying anything against sedevacantism. Their book is a disaster. They get pretty much everything wrong about sedevancantism, the law, the teachings of popes, saints, etc.
Why do we need sedes to point out the errors of the post-Consiliar culture of the Church?
Mr. Bayes, you’re conflating two mistakes. Many of us here recognize the errors of Vatican II AND those of sedevacantism. They are separate errors and excusing one of them is incoherent. It’s just another error. We know what and where Novus Ordo Watch is. We’re not interested.
Yet, your religion officially teaches that error has rights. Your popes go on and on and on about that. So you know better than your last 6 popes?
Ask your questions without linking it to sedevacantism. Sedevacantism has nothing in effect to do with it. The Church needs a coherent theology and I’ll be frank, I cannot really see one regarding EENS being put forth by any prelate today. Ratzinger as a priest denied it at least twice in writing and then recently said it was abandoned after Vatican 2.
Last time I checked, “dogmas” don’t get “abandoned”.
This is the key “missing” doctrine in the Church today IMO. Every sort of error sort of flows from this void.
I’d like to see a good, honest, no BS treatment of this problem on an article here.
Steve?
Yes, Rod, that is the same problem I am having as well. No one is addressing these (and a number of other) legitimate issues/ questions with logic and critical thinking. The response from the R&R crowd is to denigrate the people and the group that makes the arguments. Poison to the soul. Dead end. Sincere but Sincerely wrong. Schismatic. And the list goes on.
For myself: if one is unable to win an argument on the merits with logic, reasoned thinking, critical evaluations and evidence …. then the thing to do is assault the character of the witness, browbeat and harass her on the witness stand, call her crazy or misguided, try to trip her up in her testimony. The attorney who uses this strategy is blind to the fact the jury sees right through him.
I have no idea how to encourage anyone to join the Catholic Church. Francis and Friends would tell us all that there is no need to join the Catholic Church. Folks are just fine in the denomination they are in now, and in fact, they need not be a part of any church community at all. God will save atheists and pagans too. No conversion and no repentance is needed. Yeah, right.
“If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by clarity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.”
—G. K. Chesterton
Steve: How does this quote apply to my concerns above, or is this related to some other set of issues?
Did madmen write at the First Vatican Council: “And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied, and its teaching kept holy.’ …So, this gift of truth and a never failing faith was divinely conferred upon Peter and his successors in this chair, that they might administer their high duty for the salvation of all; that the entire flock of Christ, turned away by them from the poisonous food of error, might be nourished on the sustenance of heavenly doctrine, that with the occasion of schism removed the whole Church might be saved as one, and relying on her foundation might stay firm against the gates of hell.”???
Yet, what you call the Apostolic See has administer error after error even declaring that error has rights. They have taught that women can serve the sanctuary and they do it. They have taught that Eastern Orthodox are part of the Church of Christ and then tell their leader that they are “pastors” “in the Church of Christ” “who are guide the Church.” They declared that “the Jews should not be
spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this is followed from Holy Scripture” and then they participate in Jewish worship. It goes on and on and on…
And you want to say that sedes are mad.
I don’t understand, Steve. Is the mad-man Francis and Friends? Surely, we see there is no dialogue or logical appeal with him (nor is there any mercy either) and he is veering very far off from what was once the Catholic religion. Is the mad-man the Sede group? Surely, we see a minority view which is rejected by most who call themselves Catholic. Is the mad-man the R&R folks? Surely, we see decades of doing the same thing (resistance) and what are the results? The Church today is in even worse shape than when Vatican II was first implemented. Is the mad-man all of us who still care about the faith and about the Church that Christ himself established? Surely, we have walked many “second miles” — seemingly to no avail (except for us personally and except for our families). I truly do not understand: faith and reason go together. Perhaps we are all mistaken by giving any of this chaos and craziness in the Catholic Church one second of our time, effort and energy.
The Way is to bring Jesus to the lost. The truth is, the current commonly-encountered culture of elevator-music-Christianity in the Church is not bringing Jesus to the lost. Christ offers salvation to those who have ears to hear; those who are by grace enlightened to their lost state and have a desire to seek God and be saved from their sins: from themselves.
All the past provisions apply!
Contrition, absolution, the Body and Blood…salvation! The Sacraments, the moral teachings: Life in Christ.
If they don’t want the Way God gave us, they don’t want God.
Of course, what you just said, Susan, in the last paragraph, is evidently correct, true. Each statement, by definition, is a heresy. All this CONFUSION is due to the other FACT that Pope Paul VI lamented in 1972, : ” The Smoke of Satan has entered the Church”. Another thing is that there are TWO particular references regarding the CHURCH in the YET UNPUBLISHED 3rd. Secret of Fatima which, being sensational as Benedict XVI himself implied , would EXPLAIN practically ALL that has happened in the Catholic Church since 1965. That is why the FREEMASONS in and out of the Church did all in their power to PREVENT the PUBLISHING of this portion of the 3rd. Secret. These two references, if revealed, would REMOVE the scales of DECEPTION from the BLINDED and LIED-TO Catholics. 57 years have passed since 1960 when the FULL Secret was to be divulged to the world. It was ALL UP TO THE POPES to obey Our Lady and open the full Secret to the world. NOT one Pope Obeyed God’s command to FULLY open the Secret and Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Look what happened to the Church and the world since 1917 and 1929. Who is going to pay God for the innumerable loss of souls and the spiritual and material calamities that befell mankind for this disobedience?
RodH have you noticed neither of the priests answered my question concerning the change in Doctrine at Vatikan 2 from „is“ the church established by Christ to „ subsists „ in . Strange that they don’t give any answer. Vatican 2 seems to have been the start of a great deception
Dear FrBPJM, Could you kindly answer the questions below that I asked, Thankyou for your help in that matter.
Your lack of respect for a good and Holy priest is shocking and disgusting. Look to your soul and consider before God what you have said. This article was written, in part, for people just like you. Sometimes the bravest thing a man can do is be silent publicly to serve a greater good.
Jafin, Sorry but a priest is supposed to defend the Faith, he’s supposed to stand up and defend the Truth of Christ wherever it needs defending. Far too many priests have had excuses for why they don’t defend the Truth, some don’t want to hurt others feelings, others don’t because it is not in line with ecumenical ideas. I ask you a simple question, how many priests have told you recently that “there is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church”? That is Catholic Dogma. Here an exert from http://www.Novusordowatch.org . Before Vatican 2 the church clearly stated “the Catholic Church is the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ” after Vatican 2 stated “the Catholic Church subsists in the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ” If you say that this woman is your mother-in-law, everyone understands what you are saying. But try telling your friends that your mother-in-law subsists in this woman, and see if they think you’ve made anything more clear. Here we can see that in no way could the Vatican II teaching be considered a “development” of doctrine because no authentic development can contradict prior teaching — it can only make it more clear. But it doesn’t get any more clear than saying that the Catholic Church is the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ. Jafin you are probably a Novus Ordo like myself, I recently encountered Sedevacantism and this website, we can’t simply ignore what they are saying, what if Vatican 2 is the false church and we are unwilling to honestly evaluate what they are saying. They claim to have found the narrow gate , which our lord has forewarned that very few find the narrow gate. Perhaps you consider the Protestants lost souls, they don’t have the real sacraments, but perhaps we have been fooled and Vatican 2 doesn’t have the real sacraments, think about it, how scary is that. St Paul said “WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING” what is the Novus Ordo is wrong.
Noted, I adjusted the text
I would like to clear myself of the false accusation of being silent. I am not silent. When did holding press conferences and publishing manifestos become the only way of speaking out? The notion itself is absurd. I speak to people face to face and to the masses before me on a regular basis. Which is my sacred duty. If God explicitly directs me to give a presser then I shall, if my conscience burdens me to give a presser I shall. If my bishop orders me under Holy Obedience to give one I shall (unless it’s to deny the Faith, than I shall not, which to his credit I do not think he ever would.)
But the will of the combox isn’t my primary concern. My Sacred duty to the Lord and His Church is my preeminent concern. And that finds it’s primary fulfillment in my parish assignment. Every Good Pastor of Souls knows this, would that there were more of them.
By publicly I did mean not giving press conferences. For what it’s worth, it sounds to me like you’re doing this absolutely right. 🙂
Paul
This is Chess not Checkers….you want to go everywhere guns-a-blazing, there is the field, take it. Other men win battles behind the scenes, big ones. You sound like somebody who has never been in near the top of a power structure and what it takes to maneuver there.
Sorry if it appears that way but haven’t you noticed there is a crisis in the church? Our priests are telling us why they don’t speak out, and you think that’s ok. the other men winning battles behind the scenes you talk about, I presume you mean Pope Francis and his cohorts
Yes I understand it…you sound like a noob though…no what I am saying is that it takes all kinds…from foot soldiers to generals
Ferdinand of Castille, interesting name but doesn’t Castile only have one L in it? and no, you weren’t saying it takes all kinds, and I will not say what you sound like 🙂
Paul
Thanks for the spelling check, I made the correction. But Yeah it does take all kinds, and the satanists who have been waiting patiently for this long are firmly embedded in power and are not easily going to be plucked out, let alone by by pathetic one-note rant guys like you. You are a pissant shaking your fist at Mount Everest from its’ base with no rope and frankly?….A well apt line I heard one time comes to mind when I read your stuff……, “I remember my first beer”.
Look, I’m with you in spirit, but you better get several million more like you, target a single diocese and then take it by force……Paladin!….. otherwise good luck. Right now you are acting like Frodo’s little retarded brother who actually went up to Sauron’s door and knocked it on it broad daylight demanding he surrender.
Man its hard being a Trad nowadays when so many of us are stupid morons who shoot at their own side.
Ferdinand, now that you‘ve learnt to spell your own name correctly, ( Is that not embarrassing ) may I suggest you consider taking the next step in social development and perhaps learn a few manners.
Actually without you even realizing it, your last paragraph sums you up quite nicely, that’s nice.
Paul has posed his questions in mostly guileless terms. They continue to be excellent questions. All of you who attend EF masses and in ever-so-subtle manners lord it over NO types: don’t forget that it was Bishop Lefebvre that brought it to you. It can be easily be argued that without him we’d be even farther behind than we are now. No FSSP. No ICRSS. Instead we have JPI next line for beatification.
I got the same impression. I also stopped reading it. Stopped going to church long ago.
Well, you need to find a parish with a priest who will uphold the faith and you need to repent. Don’t allow Judas to win. Please, pray the rosary everyday and ask Our Blessed Lady to lead you back to Lord. You cannot severe yourself from the Body and remain attached to her Divine Head.
May the Lord assist you in your struggle. Sincerely, many times I have struggled with the temptation to leave for it is hard to stay, especially when what we love is denigrated by our supposed brothers and sisters and many of the shepherds. Don’t give up or quit, it’s what Satan desires.
Caveat lector! That’s a sedevacantist website.
Also, you might try reading the *whole* article before you criticize Fr. RP.
I speak the Truth all of the time to my parish, which is my assignment and my Holy duty. I have spoken the truth before the Bishop privately and at meetings and publically at conferences with men who are over me in attendance including the Bishop. (My current assignment is an exile for doing so over a decade ago, which the Lord has turned into a great blessing.) Just because I don’t give pressers doesn’t mean I am failing in my duty. Everyone on the battled has there duty to carry out, I am on the front line in the filed of battle to which I have been assigned not just by men but by the Lord.
And I do not doubt that one day I shall be chastised and removed or even killed for holding the line and I do not lament that, as Our Blessed Lord Himself suffered such. But it is not for you to determine when that is, it is for Him.
We have known each other through the com-boxes for several years now (going back to the CM days before I was banished from there for speaking the truth on 1P5 about Pope Francis) and we have almost always seen eye to eye. It saddens me to see that you do not understand some of the simple things I tried to say. Let us remain brothers in Christ and fight he good fight together, each of us in our own field of battle, knowing that the Blessed Lord is our King and Commander and that He is ever Victorious.
May God Bless You and Keep You in His Grace Paul.
PS: One word of caution, do be careful of the streams you drink from. Sedevacantism poisons the soul. And before you urge me to read them, I have, and they are sincere, but they are also sincerely wrong. They are modern day ultramontane papal positivists who are stuck in circular logic.
PPS: I wasn’t ignoring you all day, I was caught up in pastoral ministry. Wednesday is a busy day in the average parish.
Fr RP, I appreciate your comments and thank you for taking the time to reply. I found your article somewhat irritating because I am so used to hearing excuses from Priests about why we do not need to respect the churches teaching and our obligations.
No doubt you are sincerely trying to be a good priest, but your post struck me as sentimentalising the upcoming suffering of the priests especially the last part of your message. What I think we need from our priests are strong leaders, directing us with the catechism ( pre vatican 2 based on what I have recently discovered about v2) My experiences with priests in my area are not good, they are disobedient and want to make their own rules. For example they kick practising Catholics out of the Parish pastoral group is they mention our obligations as Catholics on the grounds that we are unwelcoming by talking about our obligations, Our priests allow lay people to give the sermons, they know its forbidden. etc. Its a complete sham in our local Parish.
I also don’t trust our Bishops and Priests, I used to trust them but now I don’t, I ask myself if they are wolf in sheeps clothing, there are too many obvious this wrong within the church and to few priests standing out as defenders of the faith ( at least where I live) for me to trust them.
Re. Sedevacantism, I am navigating my way through this with the Rosary as my guide, I must say the Sedevacantists point out many very concerning issues with Vatican 2 and the Popes, issues that are never discussed by most priests.
I asked the other priest on this blog the following question but I received no answer till now. It would be interesting to know why the Catholic Church Prior to Vatican 2 stated clearly that “the Catholic Church is the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ” but Vatican 2 council changed what was perfectly clear to “the Catholic Church subsists in the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ”. Why make something that is crystal clear unclear? The Sedevecantists believe it was to blur the meaning and therefore this gave the “anti catholics” who had taken control of the vatican the chance to introduce ecumenism and relativism, thats why the Vatican 2 catechism states that the other religions can lead people to salvation, that is not pre Vatican 2 Catholic Doctrine .
1. Can you please explain how the simple Truth before Vatican 2 is not the same after Vatican 2?
2. If its not the same Truth how can it be the same church?
3. Could you kindly give a simple answer as to how unchangeable Truth as indicated in this example can change?
This shows there is something very rotten in and since Vatican 2 and the priests and Bishops have been trying to keep the Truth from the Catholic Laity, referring to the “spirit of vatican 2”. Vatican 2 appears to be a total act of deception. Another simple act of V2 was moving the Tabernacle to the side of the church, why on earth would the real presence of God be put at the side out the way in a Catholic church and not have the central position, it has never made sense to me since I remarked it as a small child. But if we are to consider that God has allowed the mystical passion of his church to take place and he has given it over to the hands of those who would destroy it, then it makes sense. We are witnessing the passion of the mystical body of Christ, his church.
To echo your words, Let us remain brothers in Christ and fight the good fight together, God bless you and may he bring us each day closer to him
Paul
Unfortunately Father,I am only able to upvote you once! Otherwise you’d get at least 100
LOL! I Love Women, such Love, such Hearts. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe30e0845a4dfdfe60c9df207d294925ea7507de3e157df9d14a4164d72f5dba.jpg
Thank you, Father, for your witness and your efforts. May God bless you in these difficult times as the crises in the Church and the world deepen.
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. I am glad to have read it. I pray everyday for priests, but now I can pray more specifically. My family and would be honored to bring a priest into our home should the need ever come.
“When the time comes for the majority of the good shepherds to be driven into exile — and that time seems to have already begun in some quarters — they will need to be supported by you, the faithful laity. They will need you to take them into your homes, to be succored and sheltered. They will need help with their debts and obligations, as many of them are too old or limited to be truly gainfully employed elsewhere.”
I have already spoken of this with my pastor and assured him that should things take this course, myself and several other parishioners are ready to support him in any manner necessary, including financially.
Thank you Father for your article. I will pray for an increase in love for the spirit of ‘brotherhood’ within the priesthood.
Much food to reflect on by the points you made. I will try and understand with greater charity and understanding your reasons for anonymity.
We are praying for your continued faithfulness to our Lord.
The McLindon Family.
I, too, have increased my prayer for priests specifically my bishop, my pastor, and the other priests in our diocese. We have many weak ones, ones who seem to have lost the Faith. Satan is attacking our priests in a deadly battle and many have been turned from the Truth. Our Lady is ready to shelter the faithful ones, and convert the lost ones. Rosaries for priests!!!
My pastor is young, a rarity these days, and a bit naive, I believe. He wants to be loyal to people (in the chancery and in the Church in general) who do not deserve his faith in them; I know of their history from personal experience and from fide digne, verified testimony from others. I think it best to gradually alert him to the dangers he doesn’t yet suspect. That said, Father, it isn’t just priests who feel loneliness today. Many of us in the pews suffer “terrors of the night and early morning” regularly. The Rosary is the sole remedy for this nocturnal malady.
We clearly recognize much of what is happening in the Church today, and it is not all good. We have to pray hard and communicate with our brethren and stand up when necessary. This article is very good and should open many hearts and minds as to what is happening and what we need to do – both as clergy and laity. God bless the faithful!
I really don’t think you have to worry about financial support. Even the tiniest independent and sedevacantist chapels seem to be able to support their pastor.
I am neither independent (aka protestant) nor am I a sedevacantist and neither are my faithful brethren. So, please do not imply such, as it is untrue. Facing the simple fact that Faithfulness to the Our Blessed Lord’s Holy Commands appears to be out of favor at the Vatican and in several Diocese, at this present time, does not imply that those who recognize this are sedevacantist of protestants.
Sorry that was not my implication. I was merely referring to your statement that, “When the time comes for the majority of the good shepherds to be driven into exile — and that time seems to have already begun in some quarters — they will need to be supported by you, the faithful laity.”
Here in Phoenix we have an independent priest who has been offering the Traditional mass without the help of the SSPX or any other organization since the early 90’s. My point was to let you know that he has never had to work outside of his priestly ministry and he has been supported by a congregation that has never been more than a couple hundred people.
I can’t go that route. Conscience forbids it. I am bond to the Bride of Christ and if I am suppressed for fidelity to Him then I pray that I have to fortitude of Padre Pio and accept the suppression and suffer it for my own sins and those sins of the ones who oppress me.
The Cross is Our Salvation, not rebelling against it.
Yup! Well said. Stay on board, Jesus appears to be sound asleep in the hold next to the salted musht and matza balls, but when He awakes, the skies will clear.
Don’t ask me how long his naps are.
Look, all, we are going thru a WAR today, and anybody who misses that point is going to flounder in the high seas of doubt.
Look to St. John Vianney, Father. See that Truth is attractive and God will care for you. He loves you very much.
Thank you Kevin. St. John Vianney is one of my favorite Saints for a good reason. He held fast to the Faith despite his own temptations and trials and won many souls for Christ.
Please pray for me that imitate our Blessed Savior as St. John Vianney did.
Father? You may know that I dedicate my Thursdays to pray for priest — I posted it elsewhere on this thread. Today, while in Adoration, I asked God if He would give me a word of encouragement for priests. He did….and we had a very wonderful “conversation” of sorts…. Please understand that I believe this is a message not just for you, but for all priests. So, when I say “You,” I am including you, but not necessarily speaking ONLY of you.
First and foremost. He LOVES YOU! HE. LOVES. YOU! There is not a moment of your prayer or worry that He hasn’t grasped with deep and abiding affection for YOU. He knows how much you care about your flock.
There WILL come a time when you will be separated from your flock. What He wants you to do is to TEACH your flock how to find Him INDEPENDENTLY of you. They need now, more than ever, to know Him. To KNOW Him. In that way, they will be able to discern the voice of the wolf masquerading as a sheep when you are not there to guide them.
He laments over how few priests actually KNOW Him. How few spend hours each week in quiet solitude with Him. He said that even He, who is God, sought out quiet time to pray with His Father. (He brought to mind how often in the Gospels it cites that “Jesus went off to pray.”) And yet so few of His sons see the value in this. He and His Father were One, yet there was a sense of deep connection with the Father that only could be obtained by going away quietly.
When I heard this, I thought of Fr. Weinandy and how many people were incredulous that God answered Father with such specificity. He said that this is due to lack of Faith. God wills that everyone would come to Him with such bold Faith. But that kind of Faith only comes with being able to discern His voice above the noise. That can’t happen without disciplined quiet time with Him. I couldn’t help but smile at the thought of thousands of priests becoming so well acquainted with their Lord that such things as happened to Fr. Weinandy would be commonplace.
He shared with me some of the hazards which are part of your “job” — which would drive me crazy! The perpetual guardians of good rubrics who will never fail to point out when you don’t genuflect deeply enough or missed a word in the Eucharistic Prayer. The myriad number of people who love to go into confession to confess other people’s sins before they ever get to their own. The woman who calls the emergency number several times a week to tell you that she and her husband got into a fight….again…..but refuses to go into counseling because “he doesn’t like therapy.” The parents with the perpetually unruly children who always sit in the front pew….as they ignore them.
And you juggle this while true spiritual emergencies knock the wind out of you. The father of seven who just lost his job. The wife who just got diagnosed with Stage 4 breast cancer. The fatal car wreck that you just found out contained three teens in your parish. Or the teen who decided life couldn’t go on and committed suicide.
Everyone looks to YOU to assuage their grief without ever giving thought to the possibility that you, yourself, may be spent. Your own pool of spiritual giants has dried up.
And behind the scenes you struggle to find meaningful words to say to your flock when your mind won’t cooperate.
He sees it all and weeps with you. For you. GO to Him. Trust in HIM. He will refresh your soul and give you the strength you need each day. He will not give you the strength for next week or next year, but only for today. That is because He wants you to learn to rely on him DAILY.
I laughed at this part, because I hear it all the time from God. He knows I tend to think ahead to the “What if” scenarios and has been training me to give that up. Only focus on TODAY — He’s got the rest covered.
Oh, and He reminded me about the sparrow. Not one falls without His knowledge. If He cares enough about our world to keep an eye on the sparrow, He wants you to know that you are FAR more valuable to Him than a sparrow. Trust Him in that.
So, in summary….
HE LOVES YOU! He knows your fears and your faults, but LOVES YOU FIERCELY in spite of them!
Train your sheep to hear HIS voice so they can spot a wolf when you’re not around.
Give God your time, uninterrupted quiet time, every single day. He wants to talk with you.
TRUST Him in every situation. He’s got your back. And so does His Holy Mother.
He has a Plan and you are part of it. A BIG part of it!
Father, I hope I have not overstepped my bounds. You are free to delete this post if you feel I have. I am only trying to convey what I believe the Lord shared with me today in Adoration when I had asked Him for any message He’d want me to share with priests.
Dear Granny,
Of course you have not overstepped your bounds. I thank you for your post and I agree whole heartedly. The simple fact that people took offense or were perplexed at Fr. Weinandy’s spiritual discernment is absurd. God loves to assist His people who truly desire to do His Holy Will, but are perplexed as to what they should do, due to the weakness of being human and the difficulties they face. He has assisted me this way far too many times for me to be able to count, even saving my life from someone who was going to kill me on a house call. He spoke loudly to me and directed me in what to do and saved me from someone who was lying in wait with a knife to kill me (they were possessed and promised by the demon that he would release them if they killed me.)
Silence with the Lord is soul of the apostolate and in Him all (good) things are possible. And I have been striving to train my spiritual children to be able to hear the voice of the Lord and to recognize that voice. Pray that by the efficacious grace of God that I am better able to do so. Amen.
May God Keep you in His Grace forever. Amen.
Thank you, father. I only want to do His will!
One thing which I have noticed in my own walk is that, quite often, Catholics are not accustomed to “talking” with God as a child would talk with a parent. (The Protestants seem to be more at ease with this type of “conversational” praying.) Catholics are more comfortable with wrote prayer, such as the rosary or written prayers.
If there is one thing which I could hope to convey to my fellow Catholics, it’s that God already knows what’s on your heart. He just wants to hear you SAY it to Him. You CAN talk to Him just like He were alongside you….because He is.
Go for it! Ask Him to show you, in a concrete way, what you should do in a particular situation. It takes practice to “hear” His voice, but you’ll soon come to recognize it in a heartbeat. Promise!
Father? Something interesting happened to me today.
Every Friday morning I am involved in a ministry that can take anywhere from 3 hours to all day, depending on what happens. While I like to attend Mass every morning, it’s not often I get to go on Friday. But, if the timing works, then I try to attend noon Mass at the Cathedral. This morning as I was finishing up, the timing was such that there wasn’t time to get to Mass, so I began to head home. Traffic became an issue and I ended up getting off the highway in an unfamiliar place, much further away from the Cathedral than when I started out.
Perplexed, I simply asked God if there was a reason why I ended up in that part of town. I realized a young woman that I mentor, who had been out of the country for the past month, lived in that area. So, I texted her to see if she was back in town and available for lunch. For some weird reason, my text message failed to send….three times.
As I looked at my phone at a traffic light, realizing the text had failed again, I suddenly realized that I was sitting right IN FRONT OF the Cathedral! When I looked at the dashboard, I saw that it was exactly the time that Mass was starting. How could that be? I still don’t know. I quickly turned into the parking lot and attended Mass, chuckling at the thought that God obviously wanted me there.
Hoping that I would be treated to an uplifting homily by some great young priest, I was a little disappointed as the older priest gave an incoherent homily that made little sense. After Mass was over and I finished my prayers, I just sat there, saying, “Okay, God. You brought me here for a reason. What is it?”
Wow! Just WOW! I don’t think I can count on one whole hand the number of times in my life that God has given me an explicit message for someone, but He sure loves YOU!
He brought to mind this article again, pointing out the question of priests needing to feel secure in the knowledge that they would have the support of their parishioners if things got really bad and they had to go underground. The Lord made it clear to me that you WILL be taken care of, but you are not to look to secure assurances of assistance beforehand. He explained the reason is that He wants His sons to KNOW, without a SLIVER of a doubt, that it was GOD who provided for them — not man.
As I pondered that for just a moment, thinking of how it is human nature to try and “prepare,” He quickly said He will take care of you “like the raven fed the prophet.” I am not nearly as well-versed in Scripture as I’d like to be, but that is one way the Lord has of convincing me that it is truly Him who is speaking. He drops into my mind a few words that I don’t quite comprehend and when I Google those words I about fall out of my chair as I see them lead directly to a specific Scripture verse.
As I drove home, I thought I could remember someone in this very thread mentioning a bird feeding someone, but admittedly I had passed it over quickly and didn’t remember exactly what their analogy was.
On the highway, the Lord furthered His teaching. He said that each one of you — priests — were personally called by Him. You are His sons in every sense of the word and He is dismayed at how often His sons feel ill equipped and weary. That is because they have become accustomed to “going it alone” and have become more like a CEO than a Shepherd of His flock. It has become second-nature to depend on their own intellect to solve problems, out of habit, rather than tapping into their “sonship” as His heir. HE has the answers that will satisfy and bring you Peace.
THAT is why He does not want you to fret about what would happen if you step out in Faith. He wants to provide ABUNDANTLY in ways that you never could provide for yourself so that His provision brings you slack-jawed wonder and gratitude that becomes contagious in all those who are around you!
He IS weeding out the sheep from the goats right now! Those who persist in doggedly trying to lay out a path in their own way and under their own power will lose tremendously as compared to those who give up and surrender EVERYTHING to Him now.
At this point, I was literally pulling into my driveway and my heart was racing. I couldn’t wait to Google “raven feeds prophet.” I only got to “raven feeds” when the words popped up “Raven feeds Elijah.” I started to cry and decided to let my dog out before I sat down with my Bible. I just needed to settle my heart down a little.
When I read 1 Kings 17, verse 2-3 where the Lord says to Elijah, “Go away from here” I knew immediately that this was a confirmation of what we’d been discussing. He fed Elijah using the common crow (not using angels which would be quickly seen as coming from the Hand of the Lord….but something considered lowly and common) and then sent him on to a widow’s house to ask her for help. This widow, because she also obeyed the Lord, was able to feed herself, her son and Elijah, even though she only had enough flour for one more meal. Elijah promised the widow that there would be enough flour “until the day that the Lord sends rain on the face of the earth.” All three of these people, because of their faith, were supernaturally sustained by the Lord until things got better.
Do not fear! The Lord will take care of His sons and those that listen to Him and obey.
I am so humbled by these words, as they confirm for me again that He knows our fears and has already laid out a Plan for us. Fear has no part in the equation except the understanding that it comes from Satan. I am a nobody with no initials after my name, yet He uses me and it is the joy of my life.
God bless you, Fr. RP. The Lord LOVES YOU FIERCELY!!
Father, I think many of us are on your page regarding the future. Provided we are not ALL run out of town at the exact same moment, you should be confident the faithful will support you and other good Priests in every way. God bless you!
Several years ago I was praying to God with great fear for the future as a single woman who had a daughter and two young grandchildren living with me. If we had to flee, where would we go? How would we be able to feed ourselves? Immediately, I heard “I fed my people Manna and quail. I am the same God.” From that moment on, I never had a single moment of fear. I trust God to take care of His people when the time comes.
I pray that others hear the same message from Our Lord in the quiet of their heart. We are all here at this moment in time at the Lord’s bidding. He knew what we’d be up against — we didn’t. He knew that our faith would be shaken by the evil around us and wants to use that as a catalyst for us to more fervently seek His holy Will in our lives and draw close to His Mother.
Fear not! We are HIS children and He is the Perfect Father!
I agree. I like to recall God sending that raven to Elijah with bread to keep him on track with his calling. Please God, we would be worthy of such protection.
Veritas, I can’t tell you how many times I have meditated upon that message. It gives me such comfort! (Imagine…..the Israelites fled in the night. They were not able to take supplies with them. Yet, our Lord fed them for 30 years, giving them water out of a rock and manna and quail. He tested their faith by instructing them only to take as much manna as they could eat in one day. Anyone who hoarded manna soon realized that their leftovers were spoiled the next morning.)
God is using this time now to test our faith. Cling to Him and He will lead you to still waters…..
So great. Thank you thank you. He will provide.
Perfect, Granny.
Your post is going into my favorite 1P5 posts file. ????
Thank you, Pastor, for an excellent article. For a while now, I have been offering my daily Mass on Thursdays for priests with prayer devoted especially to their needs. I know how difficult it is for them to remain faithful and obedient and how much courage is required of them these days. (More recently I have increased my Thursday devotion, trekking down to the Archbishop’s Cathedral for Mass so that I can ponder even more the priesthood as i reflect on his large, ornate chair on the altar. I then go into the Cathedral’s Adoration Chapel for an hour, where I am understanding with whole new eyes how much the Luminous Mysteries can reflect the priesthood.)
Here is a Litany I pray for priests. (You can find it on Laudete, if anyone has that app on their phone.)
Litany of Prayer for Priests by Richard Cardinal Cushing
O Almighty Eternal God, our Father, look upon the face of Your Son, and for love of Him Who is the Eternal High Priest, have pity on your priests. Remember O most compassionate God, that they are but weak and frail human beings. Stir up in them the grace of their vocation which is in them, so that they may never do anything in the slightest degree unworthy of their sublime vocation.
O Jesus, our Eternal High Priest, I pray:
— for Your Faithful and fervent priests;
— for your unfaithful and tepid priests;
— for Your priests laboring at home or abroad in distant mission fields;
— for Your tempted priests;
— for Your young priests;
— for Your dying priests;
— for the souls of Your priests in Purgatory.
But above all, I commend to You: (Name with specific names in each instance, if you wish)
— the priests dearest to me;
— the priest who baptized me;
— the priests who absolved me from my sins;
— the priests at whose Masses I assist;
— the priests who taught and instructed me about You and Your Holy Scriptures;
— the priests who helped and encouraged me to accept You as my Lord and Savior;
— and all the priests whom You sent to touch my life and those of my loved ones.
Let us Pray for: (Name with specific names in each instance, if you wish)
The Holy Father: Fill him with Your grace Lord;
Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops: give them your gifts, Lord;
Diocesan priests: never leave them, Lord;
Priests in seminary work: give them Your wisdom, Lord;
Priests in hospital work: give them constancy, Lord;
Priests who are ill: heal them, Lord;
Priests in danger: deliver them, Lord;
Priests who are weak: strengthen them, Lord;
Priests who are poor: relieve them, Lord;
Priests who are zealous: help them, Lord;
Priests who want to love You: enkindle their hearts, Lord;
Priests who are sad: console them, Lord;
Priests who are worried: give them peace, Lord;
Priests who are old: sustain them, Lord;
Priests who are young: impel them for your glory, Lord;
Priests who are alone: accompany them, Lord;
Missionary priests: protect them, Lord;
Priests who are preachers: enlighten them, Lord;
Priests who direct souls: instruct them, Lord;
Parish priests: make them perfect, Lord;
Priests and religious who have died: bring them to Glory, Lord;
All the Church, militant and suffering: Lord, have Mercy.
For all priests:
— Give them your wisdom, Lord.
— Give them virtues.
— Give them patience and charity.
— Give them obedience and kndness.
— Give them a burning zeal for souls.
— Give them an intense love for the Eucharist.
— Give them loyalty to the Pope and their Bishops.
— Give them respect for their dignity.
— Give them a great love for Mary.
— Give them rectitude for justice.
— Give them the gift of counsel.
— Give them strength in their labors.
— Give them peace in their sufferings.
— Give them humility and generosity.
— Let them be the light of souls.
— Let them be the salt of the earth.
— Let them practice sacrifice and self denial.
— Let them enkindle hearts with the love of Mary.
— Let them be other Christs.
— Let them be holy in body and soul.
— May they be men of prayer.
— May faith shine forth in them.
— May they be faithful to their priestly vocation.
— May their hands know only how to bless.
— May they burn with love for You and for Mary.
— May all their steps be for the glory of God.
— May the Holy Spirit possess them,and give them His gifts and fruits in abundance.
Let us pray, O God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, You are the soul and the life of the Church. Hear the prayers we offer for priests. We ask this through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, their protector and guide.
Amen.
Thank you for this…I think my boys and I will start this as a preparation for Advent…don’t have much to offer them financially but this much, we can certainly do.
Perrier, that is an excellent idea…..particularly if you take the time with your boys to jog their minds about specific priests who may have been a positive influence in their lives. When I really concentrate on that aspect of these prayers, it can take me back into “memory lane” with devout gratitude — and can make the prayer last an hour!! 🙂
The SSPX has a Prayer Crusade for Priests:
http://sspx.org/en/prayer-crusade-priests
Every First Thursday of the month is dedicated to praying for good and holy priests and vocations.
Thank you for this, Father. If things get really bad my priests can count on me. I haven’t told them that, yet, and will now that you mention it. We might be safe in my neck of the woods for the time being, as I’m in the Archdiocese of Portland, OR and Archbishop Sample is an excellent shepherd. What are the chances of good priests getting incardinated with friendly diocese if things get really bad?
I agree that we are fortunate here in Oregon to have Archbishop Sample
After the schism, the Vatican will be Bergoglian, not Catholic. Catholic bishops will be removed from their dioceses, just as Catholic priests will be driven out of, say, Chicago.
I will concur with the good father RP. Close to twelve years ago, an “exiled priest” in the far corner of the diocese was preaching the hard Truths to a small but ever growing parish family in a very old and small church. The local bishop at the time put pressure on the small parish to raise a substantial amount of money for the success of the bishop’s annual fund raiser. This great priest brought a few of the parish men into a meeting to discuss a plan of action to raise a lot of money..”or else” ..as they say. One man, I will label him the zealot, called the good Rev. out for not standing up to the bishop and telling him “like it is”. The priest responded: “I am not afraid for myself as I am in my late 70’s and have plenty of money saved for my overdue retirement but to speak out will mean the sure closure of the parish and the dispersion of the family’s we have all grown to love to various unorthodox parishes. I can not do that.” The zealot would not tolerate this “poor excuse” and left the meeting in a huff. A few weeks later he left the parish itself.
Soon afterward, the good priest died (without the well-earned retirement) and the church building was closed and the parish families moved to a different church. 12 years later, the parish is thriving under a new bishop, a larger church building and fantastic pastors …and the zealot has left the Catholic Church.
I know if that good old priest had choice words with the bishop at that time ( and he certainly deserved it) … all of our parish families would have been in far worse spiritual health today. In so many ways, that “exiled” priest was able to protect the parish family …for this most difficult time spiritually which he foresaw almost 20 years ago.
We still thank God almighty for Rev. M. ! Some men are called to plot a course, some to shoot the guns, some to steer the ship and other to plug the holes or feed the fighting men. The Captain of the Ship (Christ) determines the role, the person to fill it and when it is needed – not the sailor.
We are alles to stand up for the Truth, the man you call a Zealot was the real man amongst you and that is the Truth. Look at the Catholic Church today are you seriously proud of it? Since Vatican 2 the Resl Catechism has not been taught.
How many of the apostles and early Christians would you like to call “zealots”? These men and women, martyrs for the faith, would wear your slander proudly.
Shall we equate growth to truth? Shall we equate growth to the Catholic and Christian faith? Shall we equate growth to holiness? Shall we equate growth to the gospel?
There are many churches in my community that are growing by leaps and bounds.
Most of them teach the gospel of “whatever the people want to hear.” Do as thou wilt. Sin boldly. It is all about itching ears. The people will not abide sound doctrine.
But gosh, gee, golly …. they are growing ….. and growth is a sure sign of success and a sure sign of God’s special blessing.
It’s one thing for a bishop here and there to reign with terror, but what does it say about the Church as a whole when this fear seems to be so widespread?
CCC 675
“what does it say…”
The answer on this question we probably can find in the CCC 675 – 677
It’s been a while since I read the Catechism. I forgot about that one. It’s comforting in its own twisted way.
For you and me, both. Just knowing, even in generalities is comforting. And serves to brace us up.
In parts of Western Europe the concern is probably less ‘who would be sent to replace me’ but ‘There is nobody to replace me’. In many Dioceses vocations have been throttled and the management of decline, parish closures and mergers is well and truly under way.
And thus, you can hear the clamor for MARRIED PRIESTS and WYMINPREESTS!!
One point to Onepeterfive website, Thankyou for allowing discussion on this chat line and not immediately blocking comments that appear harsh but are honest feedback , I see it is a sign that you seek the Truth
You should try it sometime.
??
As I’m sure you’ve seen, our comment policy is rather permissive, and it is so for a reason: we seek the truth.
yes, I thank you for that, I see that as a strength with your website, your website does seem to seek the Truth and allowing frank and direct and sometimes comments that are provoking a reply is a good way to get to the Truth. God bless and thanks for that.
Father RP,
I would very much appreciate an Article in the near future on the Preternatural realm.
A valuable and informative explanation on this topic would be of great service to your
readership.
The struggle in our time to hold fast to sincere and efficacious prayer amid the turmoil
of the Church AND the surrounding material world could “arguably” be given greater impetus
if spiritual advice pointed towards this direction and IT’S presence.
The source of all our woes!
Thank you.
OK, I’ll say it.
I find it difficult to see the difference between what priests go thru and what probably every Catholic man goes through periodically in his workplace for his entire career.
We are all subject to ethical and moral temptation the resistance to which may very well get us in trouble with a boss, management, a customer, combinations thereof and/or some other authority that has the power of occupational “life or death” over us.
And in addition, most Catholic men also, like the priest, have very dear ones to lead in the faith and in addition, support financially and protect as well, namely, wife and children.
So tho I find it repulsive the Church leadership has fallen into the same cesspool that the secular world functions in, I have to say, basically, “Welcome to the party!” to the priests who now know this “fear”.
So as allies to those who fit in the categories above, I say this; Hills have to be selected to die on certainly, but we only have one life to model for our “children”. And in the event the hill needs to be defended, they will know us as guys that “got along to get along” in life or they will know us as men who stood for the Kingdom and possibly caused the whole family to pay a price for it. I have no doubt that some “children” would prefer the guy that “gets along”. Others would rather have a man of God for a “father”.
And such is life.
As for the specifics of the issues mentioned, it is hard to know what to say. Some priests and bishops are sticking their necks out pretty far these days and interestingly, no untoward ramifications have come of it. others we here have paid a price. Life is like that in the secular world, too. Unpredictable.
Here’s a thought I’ve never seen discussed before, and maybe it is related.
Sometime in my first year as a Catholic or so a question struck me.
“When was the last time a Pope was actually martyred? Then I asked “Was that because there ceased to be issues worth being martyred for or was that because the world changed so much for the better that Popes were safe and sound in the lap of righteous culture?”
I have been pondering the questions ever since.
RodH, I have been thinking about all this for some time too. I have been at parishes with priests who wear habits and spout orthodoxy but who are privately just as worldly and unbelieving as anybody. And in living a lifestyle far above the people of the parishes they belie the Christian concept of trust in God. Why bother to trust when you have enough money to buy whatever you want, drive a new lease car, and live in a fine rectory with others of the same mind? An additional issue in our parishes was that many of these priests are gay and are using the Church and their supposedly orthodox Order as a smokescreen. I asked the inconvenient question, “How is this not a near occasion of sin for you to be living double lives?” and was denounced for not going along. They then showed their true colors by slandering me and exposing me to years of shunning. I have since fled.
Near occasion of sin? I thought homosexuality was one of the four sins that cry out to God for vengeance as a sin that is especially odious before God. Has the teaching of the Catholic Church changed in this regard?
Susan, for homosexual priests to merely live together would be defined as a near occasion of sin I believe. Living together does not mean they are necessarily having sex with each other. It is the act of sodomy itself which is the sin that cries out to vengeance, not homosexuality per se.
For reference, the four sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance are: willful murder, sodomy, defrauding a worker of his pay, oppression of the poor.
Yes, of course. I tend to equate the two (homosexuality and sodomy) and I shouldn’t do that. One can have homosexual tendencies and temptations without actually engaging in the act of sodomy. You are correct. So what is the prevalence of homosexual leaning priests within the clergy? If a substantial number, where then are the priests to live?
Certainly not together in a priory run by an Order that is full of them.
A very interesting point to ponder.
This is one area where the horse is out of the barn. They are not supposed to be ordained to begin with.
You are missing an obvious third possible conclusion, Rod. Could it be that the Church has become so much like the world that it is no longer a threat to the world? What, then, happens when salt loses its saltiness?
Francis is indeed the people’s pope. He is loved for a reason. He calls no one to repentance (and to conversion) except faithful, traditional, rigid, devout Catholics. Why would a pope be martyred for speaking exactly what the people want to hear?
Susan Lauren says “You are missing an obvious third possible conclusion, Rod. Could it be that the Church has become so much like the world that it is no longer a threat to the world? What, then, happens when salt loses its saltiness?”.
Indeed, that was my unstated suggestion…
Good catch!
Exactly, The Francis-church has become part of the world, which is why the world – and Freemasons – so like it, and say so, under Francis’ leadership. Just help the poor, redistribute your wealth via global warming taxes, and approve of mortal sin. Hey, the UN says that. Mother Theresa’s worst fear was that her Order was considered as merely social workers helping the poor. That is what is being promoted from Rome for the whole Church. Like the Bible says, watch out when the world loves you.
Yes. “the Church” has lost her saltness.
Because IT’S heavily peppered?
That’s good commentary.
In relation to both questions you raise, white martyrdom would be a reasonable answer.
White martryrdom in it’s deepest sense is every Christian’s experience.
Douay – Rheims:
Matt 16: 24-25
24: Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25: For he that will save his life, shall lose it and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.
There is an opinion that Red martyrdom is more “palatable” than “death by a thousand cuts” (White martyrdom )
What, then, is the issue (or issues) worth speaking out against on the part of the faithful clergy? Where, if anywhere, is that line to be drawn? Don’t conclude silence is cowardice? Do not conclude silence is consent? Don’t judge rashly? Think, instead, that the faithful clergy remains silent so as to tend and care for his flock?
So how exactly does this work in the real world? My neighbor is a drunkard who is abusing his wife and his children. I have seen him violent. I have seen the children cowering and bruised, crying and frightened. I know these things, but I will remain silent because he goes to work every day and he puts food on the table and a roof over their heads.
Don’t judge me rashly and don’t condemn me for my silence. When the kids appear at my doorstep, I (of course) welcome them and give them safe space. But it would be so much worse if I spoke out or if I went to the authorities or if the children were taken out of that home. One day it will be time for me to “speak out”. But that day has not yet arrived.
Based upon the courageous model of Christian behavior provided by faithful Catholic clergy, I will not call the police the next time my neighbor goes off on a drunken rage.
Your analogy doesn’t work
Maybe my analogy works and maybe it doesn’t. I am one of the kids who lives with the alcoholic father (Francis). I walked into the confessional on multiple occasions and I told the next door neighbor (i.e., the local parish priest), “I am being beaten and battered by my father (i.e., the words and the antics of Francis). He is scandalizing and shredding my faith.”
And the good faithful priest’s response (from a number of priests has been):
why do the words and actions of your father bother and upset you?
I can’t talk about it.
what did you do to provoke your father into beating you?
God is good. All the time, God is good.
there must be something wrong with you — otherwise it wouldn’t happen.
your father is just misunderstood and misquoted.
your father is under a lot of pressure and stress. pray for him.
just pay your father no attention. just ignore him when he beats you.
all of this is for your good and for your edification.
My analogy doesn’t work. Yeah, right.
Calm your farm. We’re all in the same boat.
Begone, you low-intelligence troll.
Point taken, although you could have been kinder about it since I haven’t done anything to you.
You could be kinder about it too, and actually engage us “combox warriors” with intelligent dialectic, explanations, and reason.
For instance, you could explain why the first analogy doesn’t work well, due to the differences in circumstances. A priest speaking out and being removed is quite a bit different from a neighbor reporting alcoholic abuse of a neighbor, as there is no danger of the neighbor being removed, and when the neighbor reports the abuse will stop when the children are taken away. A better analogy might be a 13-year old debating whether or not to provoke his drunkard father to beat him, to preserve his mother, or to attack his father with the intent to kill, or to do nothing, and suffer in silence both individually and in spirit with his mother and siblings.
You might also actually have, I don’t know, a DISCUSSION about the topic at hand. You can learn different view points, and explain different view points. In every single conversation and argument, both parties win! If you learn something, great, you’re better off than you were. If you teach something, they’re better off than before.
So stop being a condescending jerk. Act like a neighbor.
ok
Cetera, I appreciate the additional analogies. Yes, what you suggest could work as well. A fourth choice for the 13 year old would be to run away and go to live with extended family or go to live with a friend’s family. I would quibble with you as to the danger involved to the neighbor who reports the drunken abusive father. An entire church and community in Southeast Texas (with twenty six deceased and twenty or so injured parishioners) would strongly disagree with you about the dangers involved with a history of domestic violence, stalking and threats and how these things can adversely and very negatively impact an entire nation. Susan
That’s a good point, Susan. Yet another fantastic reason to have a DISCUSSION and learn from each other, rather than shutting down everything with a “your analogy doesn’t work” comment.
It’s OK to disagree with each other. It’s even OK to disagree vociferously and verbosely. I disagree a lot with most of the commenters here, and I know a great many disagree with me too. But that’s OK. If everyone agreed with me, the world would be an absolutely abysmal place, ’cause I know very little, and am surely wrong about a great deal, and that would mean everyone else would be too. But I can still contribute. I can share what I DO know, and I can inspire, and I can help others forward as I hobble along myself.
You could do with choosing a priest to be your consistent confessor – if you can find one.
Susan, I am pleased to see another person who challenged Fr Rp on this question of speaking out. I alsothink it is by speaking out that our priests protect AND guide the flock. The lack of. speaking out is one of the main causes of today’s problems in the church. Well done.
So, you have suffered from bad shepherds, so have I. Therefore, all of the Good Shepherds are bad. Wrong. May the Lord direct you to a good shepherd who will hear you and assist you. Don’t give up, that is Satan’s desire. There are some Good Shepherds out there, keep searching and you will find one. Until then, rely on The Good Shepherd and the myriad of Saints to uphold you in this time of great distress.
And you don’t need to confess being distressed by Pope Francis or those like him in the Church, that is not a sin but a virtue. You are suffering so because you have the Faith! Pray the Lord to strengthen the Faith within You and He Will.
God Bless You and Keep You Close to Him. Amen.
HaHa!!!
You guys weren’t Protestants!!
You want stories of bad shepherds?
Well actually, Rod, for a time in my life, I was Protestant. I have been: Catholic, Methodist, Assembly of God, New Age, Unity, Baptist and then back to Catholic again. Full circle.
As for the “mystique of the clergy” and “authority and reverence of a man of the cloth” ….. well “Not So Much.” After the pastor sleeps with his secretary or abuses his wife, what more can I say? Or after the church hires a known sex offender for the youth ministry and refuses to give any information or answers to the parents ….. Walk away & don’t look back.
I suspect Fr RP is a truly great shepherd to his flock, and unfortunately he is getting the blow back on this thread from folks who have had some rugged “pastoral” experiences.
What I really want is some lessons/ instructions on how to identify a Good Shepherd.
Gotcha.
“What I really want is some lessons/ instructions on how to identify a Good Shepherd.”
I bet you already know.
Horse sense is a pretty good indicator.
But it has to be applied.
Yeah, Rod, I do already know. And I have been “vetting” with dismal results. I am not one to “worship the clergy because they are ordained.” The “fails” have NOT been on “trivial matters” either. Some things cannot be overlooked and some things cannot be compromised upon. It is probably best that I not go into detail. But if you have followed my posts, you have heard my agony with each new revelation. I am not in a position to move across country.
Susan, I suspect you and I have some similar stories. Your path through the different religions, trying to find the “right” one (only to come back to the Church) is certainly familiar. One theme that has been throughout my life was betrayal by people who should have protected — including the molestation of one of my sons by a clergy member. (Yes, we went to trial and he went to prison. My pastor and parish, however, kicked me out because I “ruined” what they believed was a “perfect” parish. It was that experience that taught me, firsthand, just how much the clergy….right up to the top….can be weasels.)
What I learned was to lean on God alone. He taught me that HE is my Shepherd. HE is my Spouse. HE is my Provider. And HE is perfect in His love and care for me.
I learned that harboring resentment wasn’t God’s Will for my life. HE would take care of me. And He has. Through the trials I’ve learned to be dependent on HIM alone, and if others show up in the process, then that’s gravy. I no longer rely on finding good Shepherds to grow in my spirituality. God has taught me to go to HIM first….for everything.
What that has done for me is to allow me to understand, on a very personal level, that He knows I exist. He knows my every thought. He knows my every action. And He still loves me. As a result, we have developed a relationship where I wouldn’t WANT to hurt Him, so sin becomes something which loses its luster as I know it hurts our relationship.
Finding good priests these days is not easy. But they are out there.
Each time I witness a priest screwing up in a liturgy, I simply offer a prayer for that priest. The Eucharist is what I want….what I NEED….and I have learned to forego perfection so that I can receive my Spiritual Food as often as possible. It brings me the Graces I need each day to stay close to Him. I realize that I may not be allowed this privilege forever (in the event we would have to go underground) so I cherish and thank God for every single Mass I am able to attend….even if the Presider isn’t perfect.
We all have a job to do, and God hasn’t abandoned His flock. He wants us to lean into Him first and foremost, and then He will lead us to the people and places where we need to be in order to accomplish His Will for in our lives.
Chin up. We’re in this boat together…..rowing as best we can.
Granny, you have no idea how much of a kindred spirit I am. Yes, we share more than you might imagine. (Or maybe you would imagine.) I walked away from a very large suburban parish that was my spiritual home/ family without a word because it was going to be bad enough to have to testify in court against a certain long-standing “pillar of the community” parishioner. It would have been even worse to have had that church torn apart from the scandal that this man caused. “Lead us not into temptation …. ”
The priest protected the “pillar of the community” over a single mother with two children. I guess the “pillar of the community” gave more in the collection plate than she did. The woman and her children are no longer Catholic. (I cannot blame them; they were Protestant converts.) Thankfully, the “pillar of the community” took a plea deal and I did not have to testify at his criminal trial. The police and the prosecutor (secular authorities) were more ethical, professional and moral than the clergy (including the bishop).
I was left with only my faith, Jesus, Mary, the Saints, the rosary, Holy Scripture, spiritual classics. It is only by God’s grace that I am not an atheist. It is a funny thing about “karma”. My letter, which the Bishop totally disregarded, became prophetic. The local TV station was not nearly as discrete and accommodating; they loved what the priest and his antics did for their ratings/ viewership. I am beyond resentment; I have only profound sadness. I pray each of these men comes to repentance and conversion before death.
Yes, my parish was decimated and it was all blamed on me, even though the man pled guilty at the trial. (They said he was forced into admitting it.) Susan, every morning after I receive Communion, I pray for these priests…..”Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they have done.” That’s been going on 20 years now.
The bigger lesson, for ME, was to learn that I needed to place my trust in God; not man. Men disappoint; God is faithful.
The journey has been incredibly beautiful as I, through trial and error, have learned to place every day before the Lord. He knows I’m stubborn, yet He graciously gave me training wheels in a language I understood — 2×4’s! Mercifully, I can be a quick learner! Now I can’t wait to spend time with Him every day and am moving into a new phase of my life — retirement!
I sit at His feet, awaiting my next assignment.
I speak out all the time at my parish. In fact, my conscience some time burdens me because I may be Too hard on the Faithful because I am constantly calling them to battle. I spoke on the heresies of Modernism, Lutheranism, Sola Scriptura, effeminate clergy and weak fatherhood in the Church and the Home and the sodomite Bishops and Priests who have wreaked havoc upon the Church (while naming names) in my homily this past Sunday.
And the authorities you are referring to in the analogy above are those who would return the children to their abusive home while simultaneously preventing you from ever assisting them again. Not only that, but they would assign one to replace you who would instruct the children to rejoice in their abuse and call it the Good.
May God Help us.
The Catholic laity have been taught to respect the clergy and to respect the pope. Just as children are taught to respect their parents. And under “normal” conditions, this is proper and correct.
But we are not living in “normal” times. And there are limitations to obedience and to respect.
Yes, these evil men might do exactly what you describe. But what they have not factored into the equation is the response of the laity and the work of the Holy Spirit. Do we no longer believe in God?
I would ask you: how well have you taught your spiritual children? Is it now the laity who model for the clergy the true Catholic faith? Is it now the laity who model for the clergy courage and steadfastness?
You are trying to prevent the inevitable. You will be replaced. You will be forbidden from being their pastor.
How well your spiritual children will fare when you are removed will depend upon their reliance upon Jesus and Mary and upon how well they live the lessons you have taught them. And in the end, the Lord wins.
I have such an affinity for both of your sides to this discussion.
I actually agree with Fr RP’s position “on a timeline” of sorts AND I agree with the other, which is, figuratively and semi-historically, that at some point the Daimler Benz’s are going to roll thru the little French Piedmont village of Fr RPville, the DB’s with the little red flags with the funny broken legged crosses on them and the local parish priest is going to have to publicly make his face and name known and stand in front of his parishioners and say something to The Enemy.
Because if he doesn’t, some of his parishioners are going to and that would be damn embarassing.
The point I am making is this;
in this war EVERYBODY is going to have their day. We aren’t getting out of this mess unless all who stand for the Truth are known.
Now…just WHEN that is properly done and publicly demonstrated is a job for prudence and wisdom and courage and that takes us back to Fr RP’s point.
Full circle.
A profound article. Father RP clearly understands the danger pressing today upon clergy who speak up in the media and on line for traditional Catholic doctrine. But he also embraces a priest’s duty to speak the truth within his own church, and we cannot ask for more. I have sat and listened to so many pastors who lack the courage to do that. The author’s reference to having to one day find a safe refuge from the powers of darkness is clear-eyed and reasonable. Indeed, I remember Christ’s apostles who scattered when he was arrested. While they are often accused of cowardice, they might have really been escaping to preserve that new movement and be free to spread the Word.
Thank you.
You know, I’d be fine with all these clerical criticisms if I thought those making them had really seriously considered the consequences.
Banished priests, closed churches, the loss of the Sacraments.
Some may have gamed the whole situation, and have considered all eventualities. and still think public verbal opposition is the best, or only, action.
Others may need to think long and hard if they can accept the reality of what might happen.
I truly think that this is one of those prudential issues that people of good will are going to have to disagree on.
Yes, people of “good will” will disagree on this matter.
This is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” type of situation. If a priest speaks out publicly, he can expect the same treatment as the most recent “made into a high profile example/ slapped down” (i.e., fired, demoted, reassigned to Timbuktu, maligned, slandered, white martyred, etc.) Welcome to the Church of mercy and dialogue.
If a priest remains silent, he may keep his salary and his position, but he may not fare so well at the last judgment when the book of life is opened. And he may lead others to eternal damnation and may put many souls in jeopardy.
I have thought long and hard about this. Banished priests, closed churches and the loss of the Sacraments are the inevitable outcomes of the path Francis and Friends are walking. At present, the schism is underground. But I believe that soon, very soon, the schism will be open and visible for all to see.
I think the best answer to the dilemma can be found in the words of Jesus’ mother at the wedding of Cana. She instructed the servants to: “Do whatever he tells you.” I think we would all be wise to follow her advice.
I agree with Fr RP here. As long as a priest is a good pastor who leads his own flock well, I don’t see why he has to take to the internet under his full name until it’s really necessary.
Lots of combox warriors here telling everyone else what to do and of course going on about money.
We faithful Catholics do pray for our clergy, much in fact. But silence does imply consent. How many priests will speak out from the pulpit and say that adultery – oops, I mean “divorced and remarried” – is wrong, or that you cannot “discern” to remain in an adulterous state, or that adulterers cannot receive Holy Communion? A handful. If a priest is “white martyred” by removal after speaking the truth, then such is God’s Permitting Will. Fr. Weinandy is the present example. I am reminded of a priest who was “prudent” in not wanting to “offend” or “upset” the people by talking about sin, then died in a car crash, and then was restored to life at the intercession of Our Lady – Fr. Steven Scheier. He was interviewed on Mother Angelica about 20 years ago, and you can find that interview on YouTube. The reason that he was condemned to hell was that he was silent when he should have spoken the unpopular truth. Serious sin of omission.
I remember watching Fr Scheier’s interview – definitely recommended viewing.
I think Fr RP gives some good reasons why priests, for matters of prudence, should not stick their necks out too far in the public arena. However, I was disappointed that only a handful of deacons signed the Correctio filialis. We have the advantage of not being financially dependent on the Church and our parishes would continue fine(ish) in our absentia. We are completely dispensable/disposable and there is no excuse for not standing with Christ when His Church and His doctrine is under attack. What could they do to us, liaicise us? Good – let the bar stewards do their worst. It would be a price worth paying to have a clear conscience and to make a stand for Our Lord.
If I were a deacon, I would most certainly have signed.
Then maybe you should be…. 😉
You’re the second person who’s said that to me in the last month…
These are scary times under the dictatorship of Francis.
As an oldster, let me tell a story from almost 50 years ago. Here in my hometown, the Archdiocese of Washington, DC, after Humanae vitae was published in 1968, about 40 priests in the Archdiocese announced that they would not abide by its teaching in their pastoral activities. The Archbishop, Cardinal Patrick O’Boyle, suspended them and they appealed to Rome, to the Congregation for the Clergy.
The Prefect of the Congregation, Cardinal Wright, returned a ruling that required Cardinal O’Boyle to reinstate the priests if they would only promise good behavior in the future. They were not required to retract their statements against HV or to accept its teaching. Cardinal Wright later let it be known that the decision had not been his but had come from higher up. The only higher up was Pope Paul VI, who thereby refused to defend his own encyclical.
So one of the very few in the hierarchy who did defend HV was hung out to dry. And from that point on everyone understood that dissenters would have no price to pay and those who tried to correct them would not be backed up in Rome.
This is EXACTLY it.
The Enemy so often has more guts than the Good.
“Cardinal Wright later let it be known that the decision had not been his but had come from higher up. The only higher up was Pope Paul VI, who thereby refused to defend his own encyclical.”
Given Cardinal Wright’s own problems, I wouldn’t be too hasty to believe anything he said.
The matter was a very public issue at the time, well covered in the secular press. Cardinal Wright could not have acted as he did without at least the approval of Pope Paul VI. Whatever the Cardinal’s preference, the Pope failed to defend his own encyclical and the message was sent.
Fr. RP, I happen to know another Fr. RP who spoke the truth in his parishes and was persecuted for it. He’s now recently retired, but continues to speak the truth via social media thanks be to God. If only we did have more priests who were as courageous as you two to speak the truth from the pulpit, the confessional, parish groups or one on one there would be no need to be shouting it from the rooftops. Unfortunately, too many priests are either modernists or cowards. I recently was blessed to attend the Catholic Identity Conference and am shocked at the what went on before, during and after VII, especially the destruction of the Mass by the creation with the help of 6 Protestants of the Novus (world) Ordo Mass. Yes, we must pray, fast and do reparation for all the outrages going on within The Church and support our faithful priests, in parishes and on the internet. Check out http://www.courageouspriest.com.
Isn’t there some limit on virtue signaling on this site?
……..he asked, impervious to IT’S vanity. (just a joke!)
I’m sorry, Mr. McGowan, but that is such a shallow thought.
Priests are human. Fr. RP has given us a glimpse into what their fears are. The “fraternity of the priesthood” has effectively been shattered and they are often alone in their vocation, finding that their leadership has abandoned them. Their fellow Shepherds whom they trusted, often hang them out to dry.
If this article and ensuing comments helps even a few priests understand that they are NOT alone, that they DO have our support and that they will not be abandoned by their Sheep, then SIGNAL ON!
If this is a reference to my article, then you are mistaken. It isn’t any kind of signaling, it’s a statement of truth in love. I am simply trying to encourage priests to proclaim the fullness of the truth in their parishes, which includes pointing out the current errors that are now being circulated (and old ones as well) and trying to help members of the laity understand better the predicament that Pastors of Souls find themselves in during these days of continuous and escalating crisis.
This is a generalization and not meant to be hurled at you personally, but a simple observation of our current situation:
Miserable are these times when everyone is against everyone. Why is the evil winning (temporarily), because they are unified in their evil and the ‘good’ are loosing because everyone is regarded as suspect and denounced for not being impeccable according to the private judgment of the denouncer.
Divided and conquered.
On a humorous note…
Some day, I can just see the cassocked, white-haired fellow in the pic at the top of the piece wandering into a bakery in Rome and some dopey Idahoan tourist walking up to him and saying “Hey, Father RP, how are you!!!”
I have to admit that I thought the same thing, poor fellow I pity him if that happens. He already looks distressed enough.
He’s probably just trying to work out a problem in Spadaroan algebra.
2+2=5 If 2 is A and + is to add and = is the sum of what is added to A then B must be an independent variable separate from A+A? Dang it, I knew I should have listened better in elementary school!
“When people want to destroy religion they begin by attacking the priest; for when there is no priest there is no sacrifice: and when there is no sacrifice, there is no religion.” -St. John Vianney
“Every slightest failing on our part brings the community under the judgment of God. Every least increase in priestly virtue brings it blessing.” -Bishop
Fulton Sheen
“We must begin by purifying ourselves before others; we must be instructed in order to instruct, become light to illuminate, draw close to God to
bring him close to others, be sanctified to sanctify, lead by the hand and counsel prudently. I know whose ministers we are, where we find ourselves and to where we strive. I know God’s greatness and man’s weakness, but also his potential. Who then is the priest? He is the defender of the truth who stands with the angels, gives glory with archangels, causes sacrifices to rise to the altar on high, shares Christ’s priesthood, refashions creation, restores it in God’s image, recreates it for the world on high and, even greater, is divinized and divinizes. ” -St. Gregory Nazianzus
“Having taught priests over 30 years, having lived with priests, having labored for them, loving them and suffering with them—no words I can use
would be too strong to state that the Catholic priesthood prayer and sacrifice as never before since Calvary…” Father John Hardon
“…holy Christians guarantee holy priests.” -Bishop Fulton Sheen
Dear Fr., When i SIMPLY read whatever you say, I feel ENCOURAGED to keep the FAITH, entire and whole and thank God for PRIESTS like you who courageously, and with conviction, reflect the WISDOM of knowing the TRUTH and embrace IT close to the heart. What a REFRESHING breeze of PURE AIR comes out of your soul, consoling the ABANDONED poor Catholics to the WOLVES in SHEEP’s clothing. But now we have the situation where the UNWARY Catholics are being deceived and led astray by WOLVES in SHEPPARDS’ clothing. I pray for you Fr. so that other good priests like you may keep FIRM and abide by their commitment of entrustment of God towards His children. God bless you Fr.
It seemed like this article merely laid out, after all, many servile fears.
“There are, consequently, many pastors who may not speak out publicly in such a way that they are openly challenging the problems in the Universal Church, but this does not mean that they are not speaking out in their parishes — from their pulpits, in the confessional, or in the spiritual counsel they give to the members of their flock.” – they are not doing this in significant number, or the laity would not complain of the deafening silence….
Also, fear of not being able to teach saving truths would hardly be an excuse for not teaching saving truths, would it.
As an old Catholic, I’ve always thought priests are too soft. I usually am speaking to a younger priests, often inexperienced in real hardship or trial. For example, as an old doctor, hearing young priests, completely financially supported with no responsibility, complain of being called at 2 am once or twice a week for extreme unction, and two masses a week tops, no confession, when I’ve worked 110 hours a week with emergency calls all night all night every third day for like four decades, while supporting a wife and children. My son was deciding between priesthood and the military, and I encouraged the latter. I didn’t want him to be part of the problem and on top of it be sexually abused.
I think priests should grow up and be men again.
A point of clarification appears to be in order: good pastors always speak the truth in their parishes, if they are not doing that then they are not truly good pastors. So, I was not meaning to imply every pastor is a good pastor. And following on that, all good pastors are teaching the saving truths in their parish, so they are not excusing themselves from doing so. I was not advocating the effeminate modernist approach of being father friendly by avoiding speaking the saving truths to the people in the pews now so that at some unknown point down the road one can speak the saving truths to those same people.
It’s quite simple really, one does not have to go Public to the Mass media to effectively and faithfully assist souls in this time of crisis. For now, I one hope many of my brethren (though still the minority amongst the clergy) are doing what we should be doing and that is pastoring the souls that have been entrusted to our spiritual care. If the situation arises, which is foreseeable, when that is no longer an option, then whatever action is necessary to take, I pray, that I and many others like me shall take it.
As to your other points, I quite agree. There are far too many effeminate, lazy clergy out there who shun the cross and seek a life of pleasure. As for your son’s vocation, all I can say is that I never could have been sexually abused in seminary for I would have beaten the assailant to a pulp. I was not raised in a soft manner and learned to defend myself early on in life.