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Just Before Death, Cardinal Meisner Spoke to Cardinal Müller of Distress Over His Dismissal

In the wake of the sudden and sad death of Cardinal Joachim Meisner, Cardinal Gerhard Müller, the former Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has just revealed in a new 5 July interview that he spoke with Cardinal Meisner the night before he died. As the Passauer Neue Presse reports:

Müller had spoken over the phone with the former Archbishop of Cologne [Cardinal Meisner] the previous night [before he died the next morning]; and they also had spoken about the non-renewal of his former position. Meisner had shown himself to be “deeply saddened” by this dismissal. “That moved him personally and wounded him – and he considered it to be a form of damage for the Church,” as the Curial Cardinal [Müller] himself described the reaction of Meisner.

Just as we all are deeply saddened and discouraged by the recent demoralizing developments within our beloved Church, could it be that Cardinal Meisner was himself finally overtaken by them? We have learned that Cardinal Meisner died sitting and praying his breviary, in preparation for the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass. May he rest in peace.

Cardinal Müller also commented and sharply criticized in this new interview the conduct of Pope Francis with regard to his dismissal from the CDF. According to the Passauer Neue Presse:

In the interview with the PNP [Passauer Neue Presse], he explained that Pope Francis “communicated his decision” not to renew his term “within one minute” on the last work day of his five-year-term as Prefect of the Congregation for the Faith. Additionally, he [Müller] was not given any reasons for it. “This style [sic] I cannot accept,” as Müller stressed, clearly distancing himself from the procedure of the pope. In dealing with employees, also in Rome “the Church’s social teaching should be applied.”

In spite of this strong criticism of the pope’s conduct, Cardinal Müller nevertheless insisted upon his loyalty to Pope Francis. Müller will not respond to the pope’s personnel decision “with some kind of actions,” he said, adding: “Some people think now that they can put me in front of a movement [Vor den Karren spannen –an idiom which means pulling a cart or carriage] that is critical of the pope.” He continues, however, to bear as a cardinal his understanding of “the responsibility for the unity of the Church and to avoid as much as possible polarizations.” Müller explains that he has “always been loyal to the pope” and he wishes also to remain loyal in the future “as Catholic, bishop, and as cardinal, just as it is due.”

These words of Cardinal Müller make clear that even after his unusual dismissal, and though he is now less closely bound to Pope Francis, he will continue to place loyalty to the pope and the preservation of the Church’s unity above any public fraternal correction or resistance to the words and deeds of the pope — a pope who has unmistakably wreaked havoc in the Church to such an extent that she is now nearly unrecognizable.

Next to Cardinal Müller, Archbishop Georg Gänswein also happened to meet Cardinal Meisner shortly before his death. According to the Passauer Neue Presse,  Gänswein visited Bad Füssing (near Passau) on 2 July in order to give a talk at the “Bad Füssinger Gespräche” [Bad Füssing Talks]. Cardinal Meisner himself had been staying also in Bad Füssing for the sake of some recuperation and vacation and so it was that the two met in person there, but no details have been revealed about their conversation.

159 thoughts on “Just Before Death, Cardinal Meisner Spoke to Cardinal Müller of Distress Over His Dismissal”

  1. Please Lord, let Cardinal Meisner intercede on behalf of Cardinal Müller so that he can fully realize that it isn’t those who protest AL (and everything else about pontificate of Francis) that is causing division and scandal, but rather it is Pope Francis himself and his crew of modernist thugs that are causing division and scandal.

    Please Cardinal Müller wake up! You are gripped by Ultramontanism and need to shake yourself loose of it. Your conscience is erroneous: Loyalty to the person of the Pope is not above loyalty to Jesus Christ and His Bride the Church and the two are not one and the same! The Pope is not Jesus the Christ nor is he the Church incarnate. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and therefore he must show himself loyal to the Lord and the Church and if he does not (like St. Peter in Antioch) he needs to be rebuked to his face by his brother bishops (like St. Paul in Antioch.)

    • Francis is not the Sweet Jesus on earth!
      He is the sewer that breeds rats, and the smells from him are putrid.
      And for ANY cardinal to be blind to this, would indicate that he does walk with Christ, nor has been blessed with His graces. Cardinal Meisner was a priest for Christ first, and a cardinal who defended the faith to the end. I have no words for Muller at this moment.

      I am so saddened by this news and now with this report on OnePeterFive, we can say that
      our dear Cardinal, who fought for the Church, for the souls on this earth, literally gave his life for Christ and the Church.

      My comments of Francis are clear, and to the point. And I do not apologize for them.
      We are in a battle with the charlatan who occupies Peter’s Chair.

      • I have edited, on my own accord, my post, so as to not bring scandal or cause more personal attacks upon Francis. It is very difficult not to have personal disgust with this pope.

        • Yes. One way to assuage one’s anger and frustration is to picture Francis with a millstone around his neck at the second of his judgement. This image will bring pity, and compassion and prayer for his conversion. (I use this image of millstones around necks often, when I am forced to see/hear the horrors of what some of our other leaders are doing – like Justin Trudeau at the so-called ‘pride’ parade, in the company of his innocent children.)

          • Thank you Barbara for your words of counsel.
            To be pitied, he is.
            Today, I could only pity what Cardinal Meisner had been through.

            God bless.

        • How can honesty bring “scandal” if the Truth is Jesus Christ Himself? Besides, Bergoglio did say that he appreciates critcs more than hypocrits, didn’t he? I don’t see the problem here. But again, I don’t come from America so it might be a matter of cultural differences.

          • For me, he is a bit scary, and if I were to be in his presence, it would be filled with fear, and wanting to be on guard!

            Very sad at such a loss.

          • My comment was more related to the issue of giving an honest (and sometimes unpleasant) opinion since we had recently discussion about it with regards to another persone, but I guess I didn’t express this idea in a good way. However, I am glad we have something in common ☺

        • For me, it is impossible not to have personal disgust, not with Bergoglio as a ‘person’ but with his Papacy and what he has done to the Church of Christ. I have had many conversations with Our Lord, and told Him I am so sorry for all the range of emotions and terrible anger that I’ve experienced since this man has been in the Chair of Peter, and that I do pray for him daily, but I cannot help but be totally infuriated with what he’s done to His precious Bride!! I cannot and will not say that Bergoglio is an evil man in and of himself, but I can say one thing: he’s being led by non other than Satan himself. As surely as I’m sitting here, this is exactly what’s going on. Whether or not he realizes this is a question we will not know …….maybe not until that terrible day of rendering.

          • It is I think,for most, at least for me, profound sadness and righteous anger, with how our Church is being led under Pope Francis.

            I pray to pity him, that is the best that I can do. But, I would not want to be in his company, for all the tea in the China. for the reason you gave.

          • I think you’re cutting him too much slack. He is who he has been for most of his clerical life, a deceitful snake in the grass. A mere glance at his actions since he has been Pope shows a truly evil man and a servant of Satan.

          • I have a thesis that Bergoglio has a personality disorder called psychopathy that manifests itself in structural abuse and violence over the Catholics when compared to the Catholic social doctrine. Unfortunately, the Code of Canon Law doesn’t give hope even if the faithful face such a grave situation : “For a Pope to resign, his decision must be freely made, and he must understand what he is doing, and no one can force or trick him into doing it. Someone who is mentally disabled, unconsious, insane, or suffering from dementia is not considered sui compos, because he is unable to rationalize what he is doing, and to take responsibilities for his actions. If the Pope were unable for any reason to make a rational decision on his own, he could not make decision to resign” ( Whatever this Pope does, he stays sitting on the Throne. Unbelievable!

          • You will only stress yourself out unnecessarily thinking this way. That won’t help. Surely, we do not have the ability to control everything and have it the way we want. HOWEVER, we could all agree to pray for him. That is the only thing we can do.

    • In Texas, Cdl Mullers’ reasoning would be the equivalent of. “All Hat and No Horse”
      Did not Christ Himself not mention something about spitting out the lukewarm? With shepherds like Muller, the Church needs no more wolves.

    • Maybe there is something in between the lines of the Cardinal Müller when he says: “the Church social teaching should be applied”. There is a message that one can’t claim to be the Catholic, and behave as the Jew. It also underlines the key problem of our time: Catholics don’t live their lifes according to all aspects of the Catholicism, and that leaves marks on our whole society.

    • I understand your deep frustration with C. Mueller, and I have felt the same way too when he wavered, but it must feel awfully lonely to be up in a high position with every faithful cleric around you being mowed down. The actions of Bergoglio are vicious – first he ignominiously took down C. Burke, then the 3 priests who criticized him, now C. Mueller.
      I am angry at the silence of so many good cardinals – are they paralyzed by fear of losing their position ? But I hope the wrath of God comes down on Walter Kasper and his minions – Baldisseri, Schonborn, Radcliffe, Daneels, Cupich, Reinhardt Marx, etc.
      May C. Meisner’s soul rest in peace for he has done his duty on earth.
      To C. Mueller I say, stand up for the Master and be a true shepherd. Though he wavered at times, in the end he tried to defend the faith. I pray that he will do what is right, not what is expedient.
      May those rotten clergy who are trying to remake the Church, be themselves destroyed.

      • maybe this situation will prompt more Cardinals to reveal the pre-conclave liberal cabal the voted for Bergoglio – thus creating an invalid papacy.

        • There needs to be an uprising and a declaration of an invalid papacy. Already so much damage has been done – the loss of souls is irreparable. At times I feel great frustration, but the I think God must have a reason for all of this – to cleanse the corrupted Vatican. The recent sexual scandal was a total disgrace – no word from PF on this – is he still thinking “Who am I to judge?”

          • thanks …I listened carefully to the whole talk. Very mental guy…I like that he read out his written paper…how I wish priests would give formal sermons that teach the people!

          • just wait for when Cardinal Peter Turkson from Ghana becomes Pope Peter The Second !! he will lay out the same solid teaching. My hope.

          • from Cardinal Turkson’s comments in the article you site I would disagree with your assessment that he is vacillating. Yes, population controllers might try to leverage off his remarks…and lifesitenews might also interpret Turkson’s remarks in that way. But that is not the only way to receive or understand his remarks. The mere FACT that in these last days, as the Earth seems to have filled with people, the Billings Method of Fertility Awareness and other NFP methods have become known – indicates that we humans would please God by mitigating unbridled reproduction. (Did that compute?) Does that empower population controllers?? There are different ways to solve problems…me must choose the moral way.

          • it is striking how this priest sticks strictly to the Traditional Doctrines…right down to minutia. He can do this because he was brought up (most certainly) in a family directed by his father…a man’s character upholds this priest…AFRICAN manhood! How good it is.

          • But, so many. These were intelligent Popes. How could they be so mistaken, or did they know and make the appointments anyway and why?

          • It is amazing how devious and deceptive these men were for they knew that a time and person would come into the Vatican who would fulfil the agenda of the new world order to undermine and change the Church. P.Benedict was forced out and Bergoglio was in – very sad, very troubling. see:

            Vatican Conspiracy Against Pope Benedict, For Pope Francis?

            We must keep P. Benedict in our prayers – it must be a very sad and lonely time for him.

    • “Many Cardinals, Bishops and Priests are falling into hell and taking many souls
      with them” – The Mother of God. What more evidence do you need Cardinal Muller! You hold a very powerful position, much is expected from you!!! Yes, we the public are calling you out of your ‘comfort zone’. You have no responsibilty to Francis who is cleared determined not to follow Church teaching, in fact he abhors it. With due respect Cardinal Muller, you will be held responsible for many lost souls if you continue to sit on the fence. No doubt Cardinal Meisner gave up the ghost when he heard your stance on the situation. It certainly wasn’t a moment of ‘hope’ for him – RIP.

    • Father is this the chastisment the Holy Mother of God spoke of and do you think that we’re looking at more chastisment towards the end of this year say October 13th (referring to Fatima) I am wondering about this thanks for your help.

    • Today (7/6) is 57 years since my grandfather +Andrew passed away.

      May the souls of +Joachim Cardinal Meisner and +Andrew K. rest in peace. May their memory be eternal!

      Only chaste and immaculate Virgin, who gave birth to God without seed, intercede before Him for the salvation of their souls.

      Theotokion, Panakhyda

    • I think we should understand the predicament in which Cardinal Muller is in. He and others fear that more decisive action on their part may provoke more division in the Church than there already is. His option and that of others should be respected. The Fathers of the Church considered that the unity of the Church was a supreme good and it is. It’s not an easy call.

      • The divisions in the Church are firmly in place and will continue no matter what any Cardinal or bishop does. To use your theory as an excuse to keep silent is unconscionable and a betrayal of Our Lord.

      • The division is already there when some choose to use their power to accomplish unrighteousness. Cast them out.

        1 Corinthians 5:6-7 Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump

        1 Corinthians 5:13 Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

        God will uphold the Church that follows His commands. We merely need to do His will.

      • How can there be unity when there is so much confusion, distortion and division – cardinal against cardinal, bishop against bishop? It’s time for decisive action, but who will take the first step?

      • I pray that P. Benedict’s strong words about the crisis in the church will give courage to the clergy to speak out strongly and identify

        • yes-in-deedy! I found it shocking that Benedict was on the phone with one of the Dubia cardinals the night before Miesner died. Good old German friends kept in close touch I guess. But it really creates a very interesting social network graph if you stick Muller in there too with his German tongue…I wonder how often Benedict calls him?

    • Your sentiments are mine verbatim. I hope you will send Cardinal Muller by mail, a printed copy of your message. Perhaps you can collect signatures to append to it. It is a powerful statement.

    • In April 2016 following the publication of AL, I was shocked and saddened to be told by my parish priest in a private conversation that Pope Francis’s intention was to move us in the direction of the Orthodox who, according to him, are allowed divorce and remarriage without an annulment. My question to him was , “What about the children of broken marriages? How does letting adults break their marriage vows without any penalty affect the children?” His answer to me was, “It’s all good.” I went home very disturbed, and looking for sanity I found Robert Royal and Fr Gerald Murray’s analysis over at The Catholic Thing. So I can take some comfort in the fact that there are true-thinking, faithful Catholics. But it makes me down-hearted, as in, “If the foundations be destroyed, what are the righteous to do?” And I am not saying that in a self-congratulatory way, knowing that my righteousness comes not from myself, but through the redeeming power of Christ. But really, what are Catholics who want to faithfully adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ to do when, “the center is not holding”, when the good are criticized at the highest levels, when faithful orders are destroyed as in the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate? What recourse do we have? Why is the Lord allowing this to happen to His Church and what does He want us to do about it?

  2. “Some people think now that they can put me in front of a movement that is critical of the pope.” He continues, however, to bear as a cardinal his understanding of “the responsibility for the unity of the Church and to avoid as much as possible polarizations.”

    Totally called it.

  3. Cardinal Müller did nothing to defend the Catholic faith during his tenure as head of the CDF. Interviews have no official standing whatsoever and even in them his defense of Catholic truth has been equivocal. Now he has published unverifiable remakes of another who commiserated with his dismissal and disgrace. Some things should remain unspoken. As he said there is no disagreement between himself and Pope Francis. The problem with Müller is that he regards the pope as the substantial sign and cause of unity in the Church when he is not. It is the Faith that is the substantial sign and cause of unity. The pope is so only secondarily and accidentally. If Müller was concerned about unity he would have defended the Faith.


    • Exactly he was a forked tongue politician trying to placate both sides in order to hedge his bets. I say good riddance. We don’t need any more politicians.

    • “The problem with Müller is that he regards the pope as the substantial sign and cause of unity in the Church when he is not.”

      The problem with Cardinal Mueller is that he is a Modernist heretic and has been for some time.

      • Actually Müller is a neo-modernist. Neo-modernists are distinguished from modernism by how they destroy dogma, the formal object of divine and Catholic faith. The neo-modernist claims that there exists a disjunction between dogma and the words by which the truth of dogma is expressed. The truth of dogma must be progressively distilled from the historical errors and human accretions used in its expression. Therefore, we know truth better than our fathers and our children will know it better than us. Since dogma is in a constant state of evolution, it cannot be the rule of faith. In the place of dogma, the rule of faith becomes the pope. The faith is no longer the sign and cause of unity in the Church. It is replaced by the person of the pope. This is essentially the meaning of Pope Francis’ slogan, “time is greater than space.”


        • What interviews or writings of Muller would indicate that He is a neo modernist and one who asserts dogma is in flux through the generations? I would like to read them. Thank you.

          • This is an excellent, brief explanation of the difference between Modernism and Neo-modernism.

            Neo-modernism is the overall theme of Vatican II. John XXIII’s opening statement convoking the council said that there was a distinction between the truths of our faith and how they were expressed. The purpose of the council was to update the expressions of our faith. St. Pius X condemned those who deny that dogmas are “truths fallen from heaven.” God is the final and formal cause of dogma. He is even its material cause. The pope is the necessary but insufficient instrumental cause of dogma. That is why dogma is the proximate rule of faith, the formal object of divine and Catholic faith.

            Fr. Thomas Rosica said in a speech delivered in New York that this belief in the disjunction between truth and the words that express it is the great uniting principle of all conciliar popes.

            The official adoption of neo-modernism can be traced to the censoring of Fr. Leonard Feeney. Fr. Feeney held that dogma must be taken literally. The 1949 Holy Office Letter that censored Fr. Feeney overturned all the literal meaning of all dogmas that treated what was necessary as a necessity of means for salvation. No longer was faith in a revealed truth of God, reception of any sacrament, membership in the Church, or subjection to the Roman pontiff necessary for salvation. The only thing necessary for salvation was the desire to do the will of a god who rewards and punishes.

            Cardinal Muller ever before his selection by Pope Benedict denied or equivocated on Catholic dogmas of Transubstantiation, the bodily Resurrection and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

            The references to these web pages is not an endorsement of everything they hold.


          • Thank you so much! I look forward to reading the material I appreciate the time you spent gathering it to share with us all.

        • Where in his voluminous writings does Cardinal Muller express such opinions as you accuse him of? Which of his works have you read? .Your accusation is scurrilous.

        • Very interesting assessment. VERY.

          I don’t know if I can hang this exactly on anyone in particular, but it precisely expresses the sense I drew {pun} out of Ratzinger’s 1958 lecture and some other statements he has made on EENS. In his defense, he at times affirms the dogma, but overall, seems to redefine it into oblivion, into a sense of meaning so far divorced from prior statements by prior Popes that it loses all sense of meaning entirely. And this sense is what I hear squeaking thru the V2 docs LG and NA as well.

          Nevertheless, whatever it is Ratzinger is teaching, it does not appear at all to be exactly what was taught before. Hard to reconcile them. For example, to simply put forth the idea that through no fault of their own, some MAY be saved who are outside the visible structures of the Church is one thing. But then to go on and explain how it is unacceptable “based on our humanity” {?????} for us to any longer {rupture…} believe that all who are saved must be members of the visible Church of Christ is quite another. And to then go on and fashion a doctrine that MANY ARE certainly saved without relationship to the visible Church just extends the “may be” saved to “are” saved and utterly eviscerates the dogma. To me at least. IIRC wasn’t it Pope Pius IX who warned against exploring these peripheral ideas in depth?

          And Ratzinger goes on to express wonderment why evangelization in the Catholic Church has collapsed?

          And that is the point. In Catholicism today, we see many things put forth that are SAID to embody past teaching, but are put in such as way that one must REALLY stretch hard to connect the meaning in any rational way to that which was taught before the time of V2.

          See for yourselves:



          And some more:

          “We are no longer ready and able to think that our neighbor, who is a decent and respectable man and in many ways better than we are, should be eternally damned simply because he is not a Catholic.”

          Here is a good piece bringing Francis and the more recent conceptions into the argument.

          Now, and I mean this gravely, we must be really careful in not assigning to these leaders outright labels of heresy based on our interpretations. Sometimes it is very important to see how the world, and in particular, our enemies see it. Because from their writings we can possibly discern whether the teaching has REALLY “changed”.

          Example, for this crowd, EENS is STILL YET taught by the Catholic Church. So, in this sense, the Chick crowd is somewhat reassuring…

          Take a look…

      • Have you read all of his works? What heresies have you found. Your comment is calumnious and irresponsible..

        • Sir: I do not have to read ALL of this man’s works to know he’s a Modernist. Your question is as valid as your conclusion.

          And please cease your typically neo-con nonsense of attacking without even waiting for a response from someone of whom you’ve asked a question. It’s not only rude, it is intellectually dishonest.

  4. Of COURSE Mueller isn’t going to head up a movement to defend the faith.

    That would require unwavering, focussed, courageous leadership.

    But he might wind up being a half-decent follower if the winds start blowing the Barque of St Peter away from the rocks and toward that net-breaking school of Fish that thickens the waters.

    If not, I hope he just gets the hell out of the way and doesn’t try using an auger to drain the water out of the bilges of the ship as he has appeared to do on a couple of occaisions in the past.

    • Rod, he’s positioning himself for the next Conclave. He’s carving out a niche as a centrist who “has no differences with Francis” and who “conservatives” (what are they conserving by the way at this point?) like. Plus he’s staying in Rome. . . .at the center of things.

      This guy is one sly fox.

      • I realise that your question was strictly rhetorical but G.K.Chesterton provided the answer in his usual inimitable way – “The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.”

        Going on that description, Cardinal Müller appears to be an archetypal Conservative.

  5. “Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See—they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations” – Fr. Melchior Cano O.P., Bishop and Theologian of the Council of Trent.

    The Church is in crisis. Shepherds protect the sheep, remember? They are not peacekeepers between the sheep and the wolves.

    • But, we are referring to a man, who will not go away quietly with a rebuke by his cardinals.
      I imagine the good cardinals know this better than I.
      Until the cardinals prepare with the armor of Christ, not legalize, or niceties, their silence will go on and on.

  6. “This style [sic] I cannot accept,” – Cardinal Muller

    Then why would you accept the decentralization of the Church’s doctrine on the indissolubility of Marriage through Amoris Laetitia by pope Jorge the heretic?

    • It’s not (only) to confront the “heretical clown”, and Cardinal Müller probably understands it. It is a mental disorder of Bergoglio that the Catholic Church needs to deal with.

  7. “the responsibility for the unity of the Church and to avoid as much as possible polarizations.”
    How cheap words! Unity! With who? With the 110% heretics?
    When I hear the word ‘unity’ (at this stage), – in my head echoes ecumenism.
    When I hear the word ‘polarization’ (at this stage), – in my head echoes apostasy.
    Instead of cheap political words let’s speak as true Christians! Just for once.
    Which means: Let’s all heretics be anathema!
    Until and only IF they repent and return to the true Catholic Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ!

  8. How old are the remaining three Cardinals of the Dubai? If the Cardinals “go away”, do the questions “go away?” I ask rhetorically, and the way “media” and “spin” work, inconvenient questions and inconvenient truths have a tendency to get “buried” (if you know what I mean). There is something seriously wrong when people question what the Cardinal ate the night before, who he was with, did he sleep with a pillow and will an autopsy be conducted. (Hints of Supreme Court Justice Scalia.) Maybe the Lord called this holy man home so that when all hell breaks loose (literally and figuratively), he will not have to bear the burden and agony of watching it happen.

    • I think you have hit on the reason why Frankenpope keeps touting the maxim: “time is greater than space.” He hopes that in the end all opposition will die out.

    • My maternal grandmother and uncle both passed away in their sleep. However, H. E. was one of the four Cardinals who signed the dubia. My gut tells me that if he died in his sleep, then there’s a bridge in Brooklyn that I’d like to sell you. ????

  9. “…the responsibility for the unity of the Church and to avoid as much as possible polarizations.” – Cardinal Muller

    How can you have unity with a Heretical Pope?

  10. “He continues, however, to bear as a cardinal his understanding of “the responsibility for the unity of the Church and to avoid as much as possible polarizations.”

    What about unity with Our Lord, His apostles, the Fathers of our faith and all previous Popes? Does unity with all of them count for nothing compared to a faux unity built on lies, distortions of the faith and the worship of this new “God of surprises”?

    The Church will be devastated by this false unity every bit as much as it is being devastated by false mercy.

  11. Is there any conclusive evidence that Pope Francis is an antipope? No.
    Is there any conclusive evidence that Pope Francis is a heretic? No.
    Was God a liar when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church? No.

    God would not leave us hanging with the uncertainty of whether or not Pope Francis was antipope or heretic. Correct me if I am wrong, but everytime there has been a real antipope in Church history, there has ALWAYS been the public counter-claim of the real Pope. I believe the same is true when it comes to heretics: God does not leave us hanging.

    Pope Francis is not perfect. No Pope is perfect. The Catholic blogoshpere has become a full-time business short on facts and long on innuendo, and millions of Catholics spend more time each day gossiping on the internet than they do living and spreading the Gospel. God is testing the obedience of “traditional” Catholics and Cathlolic internet junkies with the Papacy of Francis. Sadly, many seem to be failing the test.

    • There is copious evidence that Bergoglio is a heretic. Just read his homilies, speeches, encyclicals, and post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.

      Because he has not been tried, there is no official determination that he is guilty of the CANONICAL CRIME of heresy.

      What do you hope to accomplish by your virtue-signaling?

    • What a fatuous post.

      Is there any conclusive evidence that Pope Francis is an antipope? No.


      Is there any conclusive evidence that Pope Francis is a heretic? No.


      Was God a liar when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church? No.


    • If this is a direct criticism of Steve and Onepeter5 then be clear and direct as to who you are speaking to, especially if you are going to be a man or an adult about it. Don’t make accusations towards ambiguous entities like some prelates we know. No, don’t follow that example. Be direct. So, are you referring to onepeter5?

    • We at OnePeterFive do not support the idea that Pope Francis is an antipope, we will not pass judgement on his status as a heretic (it seems fairly obvious that he at least supports some material heresy, but he is most certainly not a formal heretic as the criteria has not been met), and we know the gates of hell shall not prevail.

      However, it is absolutely clear that we are at an unprecedented time in Church history. The actions of this pope, whether deliberate or incidental, are causing great damage to the Church of God and are almost certainly leading some souls to hell. We know this will be cleared up at some point according to Our Lord’s mercy and will, and in His time. We also believe that it is the duty of the Catholic faithful, as during the Arian crisis, to promote and defend the faith according to each one’s state in life. OnePeterFive is doing it’s part to document the current crisis as completely as possible based on good sources and facts, and provide assistance to Catholics to immerse themselves in the tradition of the church through various articles on theology and Catholic life.

      Please don’t come here and start to malign the readers as “junkies” and disobedient trads. We’re all (or mostly) Catholics doing our best to get to heaven. Vitriol, especially when veiled behind a veneer of “true” Catholicism, doesn’t help that at all.

        • Pertinacity has not been proven, therefore he is not a formal heretic. Once pertinacity is proven, then he’s a formal heretic. When pressed (personal opinion here) I expect him to be proven pertinacious. Declaration of formal heresy requires an act of the church. That’s the only reason he’s not. I expect him to be fully and utterly condemned by one of his successors as a heretic and possibly an apostate.

          • Unfortunately I think you may be right this rate he may indeed be an apostate or worst, and I dare not speak the name of its practice out of the minute amount of respect I have left. Truly painful, embarrassing and fustrating…didnt think I’d live to see this.

          • Pertinacity has not been proven because nobody has called him on the carpet and forced him to stubbornly resist the truth. A person cannot be pertinacious unless they have an opportunity to BE pertinate.

            Thus this Pope will likely NEVER be a formal heretic simply because we do not have prelates who have the cahongas to test his stubbornness in heresy.

            About the only thing I can see that keeps Bergoglio from being a formal heretic is his lack of a tuxedo.

          • Ha! True enough. While technicalities, these things are still important… and if one of Francis successors condemns him, well then he’ll be a formal heretic. Also, if he was pressed and proved pertinacious it seems to me that he has judged himself… I think. Oh this whole thing is so confusing. Lord, save us!

          • “I expect him to be fully and utterly condemned by one of his successors as a heretic and possibly an apostate.”

            Right on. For the technicalities presented below. As a priest has told me. “Only a Pope can judge a Pope. Wait 40 years and see what happens…”

    • You and one other person who wrote in have displayed a Catholic understanding of this crisis. I am depressed and disheartened over the arrogance and malice that comes through some of these comments. Do you realize that you will be judged some day by the measure, the suspicions and accusations you’re throwing at good men like Cardinal Muller? For what? That he doesn’t cut his own throat by calling the Pope a lot of names only to be sent off to a monastery in the Alps? Would that make him a ‘real Churchman” in your eyes? Why can’t any of you seem to understand that there is no authority over Pope Francis on Earth? And why not give the benefit of the doubt to Muller for being there and doing what he could in the position he had, (that none of you know, yet you accuse him of doing nothing) rather than throw it away shrieking “the Pope is a Heretic!” to please a chorus of hungry hyenas? That is what many of you sound like. It’s ugly and shameful.

      • “Why can’t any of you seem to understand that there is no authority over Pope Francis on Earth?”

        Oh, but there is. The content of Divine Revelation as held within Holy Tradition.

        • Yes, and it was entrusted to Peter to confirm his brethren and pass it on, just as they received it, to all generations. My point to you is that there is nothing provided to remove a bad Pope beyond some speculation by the likes of St. Robert Bellarmine, but never tried. My point in my comment is that we can either help one another charitably get through this, or help cause further scandal, and suppress what Hope we do have through malice and tearing the Pope to pieces.

          • Aquinas quotes Chrysostom in the Summa: “He who is not angry, whereas he has cause to be, sins. For unreasonable patience is the hotbed of many vices, it fosters negligence, and incites not only the wicked but the good to do wrong.”

            Aquinas adds: “Aquinas, too, says that ‘lack of the passion of anger is also a vice’ because a man who truly and forcefully rejects evil will be angry at it. The lack of anger makes the movement of the will against evil ‘lacking or weak.”

            The great Joseph Pieper remarks, “The fact, however, that Thomas assigns to [just] wrath a positive relation to the virtue of fortitude has become largely unintelligible and unacceptable to present-day Christianity and its non-Christian critics. This lack of comprehension may be explained partly by the exclusion, from Christian ethics, of the component of passion (with its inevitably physical aspect) as something alien and incongruous—an exclusion due to a kind of intellectual stoicism—and partly by the fact that the explosive activity which reveals itself in wrath is naturally repugnant to good behavior regulated by ‘bourgeois’ standards.”

            The attitude you espouse (I am NOT saying it is necessarily yours) echoes an increasingly effeminate post-conciliar spirituality or lack of it. Many people here are angry; we should be.

            Charity at times demands anger so that the will may be moved to oppose the evil that has nested within the post-conciliar Church.

            Anger is not opposed to Hope. Anger’s fire is the passionate combustion that’s often required to keep Hope’s embers burning.

          • Why would you make the Tiber any more toxic than it already is?! (I just couldn’t resist, Joseph Vissarionovich; the devil made me say it.)

      • If I may ask this question:

        If you have children or grandchildren, would you want Pope Francis to be the main teacher of the Catholic faith? Would you want his companions to sub for him, if he should become ill, such as Paglio, Cocco, Father James Martin, Marxx, to name but a few? Think carefully and prayerfully.

        • Of course you may. I have both children and grandchildren. Your question about raising or helping raise children under the bizarre heterodoxy of PF is what we all are frightened of – that it will trickle down and corrupt whatever faith they do have. I understand this because I’ve lived it from 1977 to 2014 under Bishop Howard Hubbard in the Albany Diocese. If you’ve never heard of him, I can tell you he’s on par with Weakland, Mahoney, Untener, Matthew Clark just to name a few. He invited all the popular dissenters from Charles Curran to Grammick and Nugent to give talks. Read “Agony in Albany” by James Likoudis from the Wanderer, that sums it up best but it’s not a short read by any means. What we Catholics did, who are serious about the Faith, is we educated ourselves and catechized our own and sent them to public schools. Fundamentally this is the main mission of the laity is to grow in holiness and that takes knowledge and prayer. Parents are the primary educators of their children, they can’t wait for the bishop or priests to do. In my case, for the most part, they didn’t have the faith themselves. So personally, PF isn’t new, but the situation is far more dire as there is now no “Rome” to write to that can eventually put a stop to abuses, or not. But on the other hand, I do believe we will get a faster reply from Our Lord than we ever got from the Vatican. This can’t go on for much longer. We have to help and support one another and stop tearing each other to pieces.

      • My problem with Mueller is simple. It doesn’t really have much to do with the current situation. It is more of a generalized observation that he represents the forces of capitulation that have existed in the prelature for 50 years.

        That is, the so-called “orthodox” guys have continued on and on with the facade that this or that progressive is their “good friend” or “colleague” or “brother” when in fact, the progressives are enemies of the good actively attempting to destroy the Church. This fraud of fraternity has sullied the whole prelature.

        Name a time in recent history when conflicts between prelates have resulted in direct attacks by an orthodox prelate against one who supports heresy or encourages it or heterodox practice, including naming names and tenaciously keeping up the attack. Good grief, Mueller and the rest of the “good guys” should have been at war with these heretics decades ago.

        But they weren’t. They were diplomatic, and mannerly…and ineffective.

        So the best we can expect from a Mueller is what we got from Mueller; an old guy painted into a corner by his own brush.

        Did he make attempts in recent days to speak the truth?

        Yes, absolutely, and he deserves credit for that, but hardly deserves accolades.

        For crying out loud, that’s his JOB.

        We men in the secular world are rightly expected to stand and speak up for Jesus at risk of career and life. And the prelates? Why are they not held to the same standard? I know a Marine officer who gave up a lucrative career and commission rather than accept the new rules on homosexuals in the Marines. Can we not expect BISHOPS to stand up for Christ and suffer the consequences similarly if it comes to that?

        Mueller is still among the “good guys”, but sadly, he goes out under the cloud of cultural effeminacy that has so permeated the entire Catholic prelature. He remains one of the best we have, and when you think about it, that is kind of sad.

        May God bless Cardinal Mueller, hopefully with a rising and unstoppable, righteous rage that turns into a no holds barred defense of the faith.

        If he needs a place to live because that defense costs him his room and board, my home is open.
        I have room for him and my wife is a fantastic German cuisine cook, so he won’t be lacking there, either. My German is a little rusty, but then he speaks English better than I do I suppose….

    • There aren’t any traditional Catholics. Either one is Catholic, or one is not.

      For those who are paying attention, the current Pope is not behaving like he believes what a Catholic should believe. The Gay Love document was just the beginning. A revisionist reinterpretation of Humanae Vitae is up next.

      If candid observations of reality are made manifest, is that disobedient? I am lost on how Catholics might be failing the heaven sent “obedience-tester” Francis? Maybe you can give us a guide on how to succeed where others have failed?

    • Re your three NOs. The last one will never change. God is not a liar, and He doesn’t take back His word.

      The other two may be moving in the direction of YES. And if you think that that is not possible, or if possible then of no consequence, rather a reason to just sit back and relax, and see what happens – then consider the words of St Jerome: “The whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian”.

      Would you like the whole Catholic world at some point in the not too distant future to groan and find itself heretic with the heresy of the day, such as of the kind adumbrated in AL? Do you think that that is what the good Lord wants for His Church?

    • Observed from the point of the Catholic social teachings:

      1) Is there any conclusive evidence that Pope Francis’s behavious stands in line of structural abuse and violence of the Catholics? Yes.

      2) Is there any conclusive evidence that the Pope Francis is a psychopath? Yes

      3) Is there any conclusive evidence that you’ve been among those failing the test? Yes.

      Truly sadly, indeed.

    • The Pope duty is to maintain and protect the perennial Magisterium of the Church and to serve as a locus for unity.
      Neither of these are being performed adequately in any sense at all.
      Accountability necessarily requires critique. When the critique is boldly ignored you get what you get

    • “Correct me if I am wrong, but everytime there has been a real antipope in Church history, there has ALWAYS been the public counter-claim of the real Pope.”

      “God would not leave us hanging with the uncertainty of whether or not Pope Francis was antipope or heretic.”

      Please read the history of the papacy. A good start would be “The Oxford Dictionary of Popes” by J.N.D. Kelly, an Anglican with pro-Catholic sympathies.

      Concentrating on the years 891 AD to 911 AD, one sees that God indeed “left us hanging” as to whether Pope Formosus was a valid pope or an antipope, and this lasted for a period of at least 20 years, and through several pontificates.

      After his death, Pope Formosus was condemned as an antipope by Stephen VI, who dug up Formosus’ corpse, put it on trial, mutilated the corpse and then had it thrown in the river. Stephen then annulled all Formosus’ ordinations and episcopal consecrations.

      Stephen was then contradicted later Pope by Theodore II.

      After Theodore died, Sergius (an ally to Stephen) was elected pope, but Sergius was deposed by the king and the factions loyal to the deceased Pope Formosus.

      In place of Sergius, John IX was installed as pope, and John contradicted Stephen VI in regards to the legitimacy of Formosus.

      Then came Benedict IV and Leo V, both of whom were pro-Formosus.

      Leo was deposed by Christopher, an antipope, but Sergius III came back to Rome with an army and overthrew Christopher. He was acclaimed pope even though Leo V was still alive, and the Church consider Sergius to be a valid pope.

      Sergius then re-condemned Pope Formosus and declared him to be an antipope, in keeping with the decree of Stephen VI.

      Not making a judgment one way or another on Pope Francis, but the history of the papacy is much more convoluted, at times, than contemporary Catholics realize, as most Catholics do not study the history of what happened in various epochs.

      • “Not making a judgment one way or another on Pope Francis, but the history of the papacy is much more convoluted, at times, than contemporary Catholics realize, as most Catholics do not study the history of what happened in various epochs.”

        Thus emphasizing our need to place our hope in Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

        The Pope deserves respect, but he is not God.

        Not that there is any doubt of that these days…

  12. The best scenario would be for Cardinal Müller to sign on with the 3 surviving cardinals, and come out with guns a’blazing, using all of his theological experience to condemn Amoris Laetitia and call Francis to accountability for its contradiction to the Faith and the harm it is posing to souls.

    • It is too late for this scenario since Cardinal Muller has been fired. It would smack of “sour grapes.”

  13. Here is what the Wikipedia says about structural abuse and violence (

    “Structural abuse is the process by which an individual is dealt with unfairly by a system of harm in ways that the person cannot protect themselves against, cannot deal with, cannot break out of, cannot mobilise against, cannot seek justice for, cannot redress, cannot avoid, cannot reverse and cannot change.

    There are three kinds of structural abuse:
    1) Imposed interference with an individual’s personal space-time-energy control;
    2) “Normal” interferences with an individual’s ability to control relationships and their construction;
    3) Missing connections that harness the physical, mental and emotional energies of a person over a protracted period, thus causing damage to both the relationship and the physical and emotional wellbeing of the person being kept waiting.

    Structural abuse is indirect, and exploits the victim on an emotional, mental and psychological level. It manifests itself in specific situations within each cultural, social, corporate and family framework.”

    The death of Cardinal Meisner didn’t happen accidentally for it seems like God has decided that it is time to expose the true face of Bergoglio.

    • If the usurpers ensconced in the Vatican have a cavalier attitude towards God and His Church, why should they care about structural abuse and violence? Like the judge in the Gospels they “fear not God, nor regard man”.

      • I don’t know if Bergoglio fears God or man, but no one can’t do what one wants, especially if his ideas and moves tend to harm someone else. There are laws and usus to respect. Otherwise, there are courts and special institutions to live within. If you compare Bergoglio’s behaviour with the Catholic social doctrine and some general psychological thesis, than he can be viewed as “psychopath”. The fact that he pretends for four years already to be the pontiff of the Catholic Church in front of the whole world only highlights how grave and unique his case is. It’s not the matter of Catholic faith any more but medical issue that endangers much more people than an ordinary faithful can imagine. However, God will sort it out!

  14. Our Lord Jesus Christ is perhaps, with Cardinal Miesner’s death, testing the remaining dubia Cardinals and us too.

    Let us depend wholly on Our Lord’s goodness and love for His Church and for us; and never give up on the rightness of our cause or on our trust that the Church, despite the evident belief of the Bergoglian heretics, does indeed belong to Christ and not to them.

        • So, you think things will be okay with the Lord that this “Catholic” uses mass murderer Stalin as his avatar all in the name of “irony”? In all charity, you both should speak to a priest about this.

          • In all charity you need to lighten up.
            If you follow his comments they are often quite enlightening.

          • I write on this page for the first time and may not know how to use it properly, so excuse me, but if winslow is responding to Student of Mary… such terms are So old, in such an archaic style and, above all, with that unbearable superiority…Is This The New Church? Bravo! Follow that path, and from time to time look back to see how many people are following you.

          • I do believe with that fire in your belly and your feelings about Uncle Joe Stalin, you might just have made friend in The Great Stalin!

        • I understand irony, but we must all realize that the internet does not do a good job of conveying irony. Written communication is very effective in the style of G.K. Chesterton or Abp. Fulton Sheen–both brilliant writers. On-line we can’t see facial expressions or hear inflections of voices. Some irony is just lost.
          At any rate, Stalin is a HORRIBLE example of anything. It’s impossible NOT to react with: “Yuck!” before even getting the chance to read what the man has to say. We must admit that it(the image of a mass-murderer) IS quite off-putting.

          • Yes, it is improper to have the terrible dictator as your favorite picture…it produces me the same as if it was the picture of Fidel Castro, another international assassin, cruel dictator, disbeliever, ex-alumnus of the Jesuits who still is smashing the freedom of the Cuban through his brother Raul. And this after almost 60 years of oppression to the people.

  15. So sad. May he rest in peace. At least he doesn’t have to deal with all the intrigue down here on earth anymore. Hope he’s with God in heaven.

    As for how Cardinal Muller was terminated without warning within one minute of the end of his five-year term, something like that happened in my diocese recently. We had a good, conservative bishop, but he was moved, so we got a new bishop. Suddenly staff, really good people, including directors, started disappearing from the chancery without any warning or goodbye. And then a good friend of mine who worked there, with whom I’d just had a meeting, was terminated the same way. Literally called to a meeting and walked to the door. Worse than any worldly corporation I’ve seen. And the replacements that were brought in – well, let’s just say our diocese is not the same. A very different place, very deflating and disappointing. Sorry to see Pope Francis doing the same thing. Seems far from the gospel message.

  16. May Cardinal Meisner enjoy a glorious eternity in the presence of the Blessed Trinity! He has been graced by his death. He now sees God and doesn’t have to suffer watching the Church being systematically destroyed day by day. Nevertheless, the struggle for orthodoxy continues unabated as it did against Arianism after the death of St Alexander of Alexandria. New heroes will arise, new Athanasiuses ready to defy the current apostasy and live and die for orthodoxy. So long as we are prepared to die for the truth there will never be a total apostasy and, like in the days of Athanasius, God will surely grant victory to the faithful and true.

  17. He will remain loyal to the pope? He needs to be most concerned about remaining loyal to the Lord Jesus and to His Church.

  18. Would Muller advocate loyalty to Hitler for the sake of unity? When the Church is in the hands of the devil unity is detrimental.

    • And it’s not even unity. It’s only smiling in public and saying everything’s fine, keep the collections going, and then actually holding different views on most important topics.

  19. I feel so sorry for Cardinal Müller who appears, after many years of service, simply discarded as if all those years count for nothing. And why, because he has his doubts at the attempts of Pope Francis, a liberation theology follower, to change the Magisterium. I know, the Liberals scoff at the traditionalists but, in the end, it will be the traditionalists who welcome Our Blessed Lord when He returns. May the soul of the beloved Servant of God, Cardinal Meisner, and all the souls of the faithful departed, through the Mercy of God, Rest in Peace.

    • Far from saying that we shouldn’t be emotional, but we can’t be intellectually paralysed either. There is nothing wrong with Cardinal Müller. On contrary, he is perhaps the one who understands the best the root of Bergoglio’s issue, and we should all open our eyes a bit wider.

  20. Cardinal Muller tried to save AL from itself, but Francis refused. He wanted to help Francis, but Francis refused his help. And Francis will end up as a heretical pope because of his pride.

    • He sure did. Mueller put everything he had into trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

      He lost both his integrity and his job.

  21. The Cardinal who is the former head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith puts unity before Truth. Let that sink in a moment.

  22. See it here. Even pope is not for that ‘unity’, as c. Muller is, and he maybe think pope is for that too.
    News from today:
    Scholas Occurrentes: Videophotography of the Pope for a “culture of encounter” without Christ
    The pope said “no to unity,” but yes to “commonality in cultural diversity”.
    Original in german:

  23. So, the man says he was notified of his dismissal on the last day of his five year term, one minute before his current appointment expired…and with no explanation.
    LOL! (Sadly)
    Is there any question as to the type of person we have as now as Vicar of Christ??
    This is how he treats loyal princes of the Church who have served two popes….Like dirt and I don’t mean dirt.
    There is something coming to a head and it seems to be happening rapidly. Something wicked this way comes.
    Bet on it.

  24. When Muller was appointed by Pope Benedict I was disappointed and shocked. Of course Pope Benedict’s resignation some months later illuminated the reasoning supporting that appointment – conscientious, moderate – yet with liberal credentials – acceptable to the anticipated successor who was right around the corner.
    Cardinal Muller did his job better than I would have expected.
    That he spoke of Pope Francis as frankly as he did as reported here is surprising, satisfying and very illuminating. Lest any of us ever doubt we have the pulse of Pope Francis, rest assured we do. This is not a good guy.
    I’m at the point where I hope he goes boldly where he and his vipers tangle hope to go. The further he goes the probability of concealing the atrocious nature of this “pontificate” diminishes and applying the corrective becomes ever more probable.
    When the inevitable comes to pass, may he find his resting place in Argentina where he belongs.

  25. The name is Müller in German orthography, or Mueller in English orthography (also how the French spell it), not Muller. The umlauts originate as an “E” written above the preceding vowel. People writing articles in English would be best off using English orthography for clarity.

  26. The 3rd secret of Fatima prophesied that the Church would be attacked from inside. The awful things being continually exposed and stated by the highest positioned leaders and their toadies are proof of this internal corruption and impending destruction, in my opinion. The Church will survive as promised but not without drastic cleansing of its corruption.

  27. WE are the Church MILITANT! Through the sacrament of Confirmation you have been given the tools to defeat the demons and it is NOT OPTIONAL for us to join in this spiritual war. It is your duty to give your life for the Church! If you are not now in an almost constant state of prayer—get there NOW! Sinful, lazy and lukewarm Catholics are of no help in this battle! Pray the Angelus three times a day. Pray the daily rosary. Consecrate your home and family to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Consecrate your children to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Read the bible. Attend daily Mass. Do severe penance. Never be without the brown scapular around your neck. Keep holy water with you at all times. Go to REAL Catholic sources—, to name a couple that are 100% on the right team. Spread the word to those who will suffer for all eternity, starting with your own family! Be not afraid to ask questions and to speak out to your fellow Catholics, your parish priest, bishops and cardinals. Do not accept vague or convoluted answers. Do not let them speak to you as if you were a simpleton. Do not treat them as if they are royalty. They are only men. At this time the Church is filled with unholy men parading as priests. The Church is poisoned from The Vatican on down with homosexual and pedophilic demons wearing priestly garb. Enough with all this polite political hogwash! The MAN who is currently staining the throne of Peter is a demon and we must all band together to preserve the ONE True Church of Christ. “You will know them by their deeds.” ‘Pope Francis’ sullies the name of one of our most holy and revered saints, SAINT Francis. Pray for his intercession in driving out the demons within the church and ask for his guidance in rebuilding. He did it once and he will help rebuild again. Pope Francis is to be judged by his actions and his words—-ALL OF THEM! This is an evil man who cares more about the world and worldly things than he cares about The Church. This man cares more about what people think about him than what GOD thinks about him. He wields NO POWER over YOUR salvation. It is not a sin to call evil EVIL! Pope Francis IS evil!


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