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Is Fatima a Distraction or More Relevant than Ever?

In a recent exchange on social media, following the posting of our article about Padre Pio’s knowledge of the Third Secret, someone I encountered lamented the widespread focus among traditional Catholics on the messages of Fatima as a “distraction”. There seems to be a lot of disdain out there for “Fatimists” like Fr. Gruner, as though they’re the only reason people are so suspicious of the official line on Our Lady’s 1917 apparitions.

Fr. Gruner of the Fatima Center, of course, managed to be a polarizing figure, as debates here in our comments section regularly demonstrate. But I countered to this objector that one needn’t invoke such “Fatimists” at all to see that what we have been told about this particular private revelation — with its very public dimension for the Church and the world — doesn’t add up.

But why does Fatima matter? Why do we keep talking about it if, as I said recently, we can’t really get to the bottom of it’s mystery?

As a non-expert, I can tell you that to me, Fatima is the most striking example of God, through Our Blessed Mother, reaching down into the filth and corruption of our time to both warn us of what we are doing and to give us hope.

I also believe — and this is perhaps even more important for a Catholic faithful so scandalized by the conduct of the clergy — that Fatima is a reminder that no matter how things are in the Church, Heaven hasn’t forgotten us, and that all we are enduring was not only foreseen, but accounted for in the Divine Plan.

There is also a sense of urgency with Fatima. A feeling, because of Our Lady’s warnings, that there is a ticking clock on God’s forbearance with His sinful children, and it’s about to run out. So with the centenary year of Fatima now upon us, the topic naturally provokes more intense reflection.

It is my intention today to bring to light and examine some recent comments made by several major Catholic figures in this regard: Cardinal Raymond Burke, Cardinal Francis Arinze, and Marco Tosatti.

 

On May 19, Cardinal Burke re-ignited the Fatima discussion when he took the surprising step of asking publicly for the consecration of Russia. LifeSiteNews (LSN) editor-in-chief John-Henry Westen was present at the cardinal’s talk at the Rome Life Forum, and he graciously gave me permission to reprint his article summarizing the event.

In the LSN report, Burke was cited as follows:

The call for the consecration of Russia is for some controversial, but Cardinal Burke addressed the reasons for his appeal simply and straightforwardly. “The requested consecration is at once a recognition of the importance which Russia continues to have in God’s plan for peace and a sign of profound love for our brothers and sisters in Russia,” he said.

“Certainly, Pope Saint John Paul II consecrated the world, including Russia, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on March 25, 1984,” said Cardinal Burke. “But, today, once again, we hear the call of Our Lady of Fatima to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, in accord with her explicit instruction.”

This, by itself, would have been noteworthy enough. Though Burke acknowledges here the imperfect 1984 consecration of the World, in which Russia was not specifically mentioned, and hints at its potential efficacy, he nonetheless insists that Russia should be consecrated again, explicitly this time. This departure from the Vatican’s position that the consecration has been sufficiently accomplished — bolstered by a 1989 letter alleged to have been written by Sister Lucia confirming that Heaven had “accepted” the 1984 consecration and the CDF’s accompanying statement that “any further discussion or request is without basis” — certainly got people’s attention.

But what was not mentioned in the LSN report were Cardinal Burke’s even more direct comments at the beginning of his talk, the full text of which has now been made available on the invaluable website of Voice of the Family:

In fact, the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary did not take place, as she requested, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays did not become the practice of the universal Church. There ensued the terrible suffering of the Second World War and its aftermath, the spread of atheistic communism, resulting, in fact, in the persecution of many nations and of the Church in those nations, and the annihilation of some nations. The second part of the Secret also ends with the sure hope that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph through obedience to her maternal instruction.

This portion of his remarks is interestingly worded. The context of “the Second World War and its aftermath” seems as though it may be meant to say the consecration did not take place back then, leaving open the implication, by way of mentioning the consecration performed by Pope John Paul II, that it is done now. But taken in conjunction with Burke’s later comments that it should be done explicitly — and the fact that the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays is still not the practice of the Universal Church — leads me to believe he is in fact saying that he does not believe the consecration has ever been properly done.

Also found in the remarks of Burke’s full talk is this important consideration:

I now return to the third part of the Secret or Message of Fatima. Without entering into a discussion regarding whether the third part of the Secret has been fully revealed, it seems clear from the most respected studies of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, that it has to do with the diabolical forces unleashed upon the world in our time and entering into the very life of the Church which lead souls away from the truth of the faith and, therefore, from the Divine Love flowing from the glorious pierced Heart of Jesus. Frère Michel de la Sainte Trinité, in his monumental study of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, writes the following regarding the third part of the Secret or what is often called the Third Secret:

In short, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary undoubtedly refers much more to the third Secret than even the second. For the recovery of peace will be a gift from Heaven, but it is not, properly speaking, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Her victory is of another order, supernatural, and then temporal by addition. It will first be the victory of the Faith, which will put an end to the time of apostasy, and the great shortcomings of the Church’s pastors.[23]

As horrible as are the physical chastisements associated with man’s disobedient rebellion before God, infinitely more horrible are the spiritual chastisements for they have to do with the fruit of grievous sin: eternal death. As is clear, only the Faith, which places man in the relationship of unity of heart with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the mediation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, can save man from the spiritual chastisements which rebellion against God necessarily brings upon its perpetrators and upon the whole of both society and the Church. [emphasis added]

Of note here are two important points:

1.) Cardinal Burke is here acknowledging that Our Lady warned not just of the ascendancy of evil in the world, but in the Church itself.

2.) Cardinal Burke emphasizes the danger of hell as something far more serious than “physical chastisements associated with man’s disobedient rebellion before God…” With this in mind, one is compelled to question those who theorize that when Our Lady promised that Russia would “be converted,” that she meant merely a conversion from atheistic, materialistic communism. It seems more likely that she instead would have meant an authentic and salvific conversion to the True Faith.

I would like to spend a bit more time on the first of these two points – the theme of Apostasy in the Church. It is important to note that this idea is not contained anywhere in the revealed texts themselves; the three secrets of Fatima as offered to the public by the Vatican do not mention or in any clear way even insinuate an apostasy in the Church. We are warned about the dangers of Hell, of war, of martyrdom, and persecution, but nothing about an apostasy within Catholicism.

And yet, this is precisely what Cardinal Luigi Ciappi, theological adviser to five popes, wrote in a 1995 letter: “In the Third Secret it is predicted, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.

Dr. Alice von Hildebrand confirmed that she and her husband Dietrich had heard the same message in 1965 from the mouth of Monsignor Mario Boehm, a long-time editor of the Vatican’s official newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, when he claimed that the Third Secret had not been revealed on time (by 1960, as Our Lady requested) because of its “fearful” content. When asked what was so frightening about it, Msgr. Boehm replied, “infiltration of the Church to the very top”.

This is also what Fr. Gabriele Amorth says Saint (Padre) Pio told him about the Third Secret: “You know, Gabriele? It is Satan who has been introduced into the bosom of the Church and within a very short time will come to rule a false Church.” Fr. Amorth went on to say, “Nothing of the sort (earthly chastisements) mattered to him (Padre Pio), however terrifying they proved to be, except for the great apostasy within the Church. This was the issue that really tormented him and for which he prayed and offered a great part of his suffering, crucified out of love.”

This is, oddly enough, also what two of the alleged “real Third Secret” documents that have emerged also claim. The first of these comes by way of an article in an October, 1963 edition of the German publication Neues Europawhich has been claimed by some to have contained the words of the “real Third Secret” interspersed amidst apocryphal text. It was this version that was alleged to have been decoded by Fr. Luigi Villa, another friend of Padre Pio, and which said, in part, “No longer does order reign anywhere and Satan will reign over the highest places directing the course of events. He (Satan) really will succeed in infiltrating to the top of the Church.”

And then there is the version of the supposed “real Third Secret” brought to prominence in a new book by the Spanish journalist José María Zavala and claimed to have been confirmed by handwriting expert Begoña Slocker de Arce as having been written in in Sister Lucia’s own hand. In this version, the text begins immediately with the revelation: “Now I am going to reveal the third fragment of the secret: This part is the apostasy in the Church!” and goes on to describe a vision of a pope complicit with evil and a hideous Church infested with apostasy.

Apostasy in the Church. It is a theme that seems never to die down in relation to Fatima, the official text of the three secrets notwithstanding. And sadly, it is certainly apparent that apostasy in the Church is a real and present danger in 2017.

The Zavala text is the most recent of these examples, so I would like to turn to Marco Tosatti, who brought the Zavala book to our attention. I have already written about my concerns regarding the questionable origin of the Zavala text, despite claims that it was written by the hand of Sister Lucia. Some readers have questioned why we would have drawn attention to such a document at all.

The short answer? Because it was newsworthy, and a piece in a much larger puzzle.

With these same questions in mind, Maike Hickson reached out to Tosatti on my behalf to ask why he decided to write about this document and Zavala’s claims. Tosatti graciously returned a very thoughtful and thorough response that speaks more broadly of the issues surrounding the Fatima question than just the particulars of the Zavala text:

On Fatima, I do not assess anything about the document. But my policy is to give – without pretending to be a judge – all the possible elements of knowledge to my readers, even though I am skeptic. It was interesting to report the strength with which the experts spoke. Of course they defend their work; they may be wrong, and they did not have an original document [to work from in their analysis – Ed]. What we can say about all this story … is this: we cannot know for certain which kind of documents passed from sister Lucy to the Vatican. Maybe there was something written by Sister to explain her personal interpretation of the secret which has not been judged a REAL part of the secret; and so people who say that the whole secret was published might be technically correct, but certainly there are holes and missing points in the story, which have not been cleared — and may never be.

Loris Capovilla, secretary to [Pope] John XXIII, quoted the Pope as saying, after having read the Secret: “I do not give any judgment”, and Capovilla, in an interview given to the writer of these lines added: “Silence in front of something which might be a manifestation of the Divine, and might not be”. On this line of thought the secretary of John Paul II, now Cardinal Stanisław Dziwisz, when I asked him during a trip in Africa about Fatima, answered: “It s not always easy to understand what the Virgin says, and what sister Lucy says”.

After having said this, we must underline that there is a wide field for speculation, since the story is full of discrepancies and contradictions.

For instance. In 1957, Bishop João Pereira Venancio, charged to bring the secret to the Vatican Nuncio, talks of different envelopes; and having looked at the leaf inside the envelope, putting the envelope against a light, says that the message should be nearly 24 lines long. Now, the part we know of the Secret is certainly much longer. And again: for the first two parts of the secret we have a vision, and then an explication. For the third part we have only a vision. But there is somebody who thinks that the last words of the Virgin “In Portugal the faith dogma will always be preserved, etc.” are prelude to an explanation never known, or whose existence was never admitted officially. In 1952, Father Schweigl, S.J., coming back from Fatima, where he knew the Secret, said to a brother of the Russicum that it had two parts. One related to the Pope, and the other one to the faith. And Cardinal Loris Capovilla, secretary to John XXIII, talking to the Fatima expert Solideo Paolini, admitted that there were two documents (envelopes), without elaborating more clearly this statement. Then Solideo Paolini asked him:

“Then there are two texts of the Third Secret?” And Capovilla replied: “Precisely!”

At the same time we cannot pass over the fact that over the years, people who came into contact with the “Secret” dossier, or spoke with sister Lucy, said that there was a part related to a grave crisis in the Church and in the faith. So: I do not endorse the 2010 [Zavala/Slocker – Ed.] document, because I have not the tools to do so, or to say for certain that it is a fake. I see it as a part of a greater picture, which still presents many foggy spots….

What is not at all foggy about the Fatima message is its warning about Hell.

In a May 14 interview, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, talked about this theme with LifeSiteNews.

People who disregard Hell as a place “invented” by the Church to scare people into acting a certain way need to listen to the message from Our Lady of Fatima, said Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria. She showed three shepherd children that Hell exists, and is not empty, he added.

“There are people who don’t want us to talk of Hell. But Hell is not something that was invented in the Vatican…”

[…]

Arinze said that for people to deny the existence of Hell so they can live as they please is like a university student deceiving himself into believing that there is no examination at the end of the year so he can forgo studying.

“If you do not want to study I promise you that you are going to fail the examination. It is no use saying there will be no exam. There will be. So people won’t solve the problem of Hell by saying that it frightens little children, or that they are shocked by it,” he said.

Arinze pointed out that it is Jesus Christ himself who confirms in the Gospels the reality of Hell as a place “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

“Christ himself said that. He spoke of those who would be thrown out into the exterior darkness. He spoke of those who would be punished for always. And Christ is the son of God. If anybody is merciful, it is he. So, if he said that to us, it is in our own interest to take it seriously,” he said.

But Arinze did not constrain himself only to the topic of eternal damnation. He then turned, as discussions of Fatima inevitably seem to do, to the issue of the Consecration of Russia:

Cardinal Arinze reflected on Our Lady’s request for the consecration of Russia, saying that if her request had been heeded, it would have spared the world much misery caused by Communism. 

“Communism means the denial of the existence of God, trying to build a system that does not take God into account. Not only that, but one that would positively and aggressively go against God the Creator and also the human person. Because once you deny God, you also damaged the human person, because our greatness depends on God,” he said.

[…]

“So those who know history, the number of people killed in one country after another, the world never had it so bad. Obviously then, the Blessed Virgin Mary wanted to save the world from all that. Isn’t that serious? When she mentioned Russia, isn’t that because that is the center where the problem began?” he added.

Arinze said that Our Lady’s message at Fatima is just as relevant today as it was 100 years ago. People need to take her message “very seriously” of avoiding sin, praying, and of making reparation for sin. [emphasis added]

If apostasy in the Church and sin in the world are the problems, in the end, we return again, as we always do, to the central theme of Fatima — which is to say, the solution Our Lady has given us for these evils: prayer, penance, and reparation for sin.

If the Fatima message keeps these things ever before our eyes, one is hard pressed to see how it could ever be called a “distraction.”

116 thoughts on “Is Fatima a Distraction or More Relevant than Ever?”

  1. Thanks Steve for revisiting these themes because the majority of Catholics are unaware of what is being played out in the Church, and the more often it is raised the more likely word will spread.

    Reply
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      Reply
      • Steve, are you making 95 bucks an hour? Where do these ads come from? Anyway…95 bucks, meh…an apostolate that comes to the aid of the Church during the Great Apostasy, eternally priceless. And thanks, Steve; seriously, Our Lady is doing immense good through you.

        Reply
          • Also is the devil attacking your website Steve? I have been seeing a number of database errors lately. I work in IT so I am somewhat attuned to these things. Seems your web server could not connect to the DB?

          • It’s as good an explanation as any. We moved to a new web host about a month ago and a couple weeks later those errors started showing up. They keep troubleshooting it and they can’t figure out what’s causing it.

  2. July 13, 1917 – Our Lady said:

    “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God another and worse war will break out during the pontificate (reign in the original Portuguese- M) of Plus XI. When you shall see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he (sic) is about to punish the world by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.

    To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. *** In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved; etc…*** Do not tell this to anybody. Francisco, yes, you may tell him.

    When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need.”

    December 10, 1925 – The Child Jesus and Our Lady appear to Sister Lucia. He said:

    “Have compassion on the Heart of your most holy Mother, covered with thorns, with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of reparation to remove them.”

    Then the most holy Virgin said:

    “Look, my daughter, at my Heart, surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce me at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You at least try to console me and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, shall confess, receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation to me.”

    On June 13, 1929, in the Presence of the Most Holy Trinity, Our Lady said to Sister Lucia:

    “The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father to order and make in union with all the bishops of the world the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means.”
    This is what God asked for through Our Lady of Fatima on June 13, 1929.

    From Pope Pius XI to the present, NO Pope has done it exactly as God wanted:

    Pius XI – didn’t do it.

    If he had, World War II et seq. NEVER would have happened.

    January 1938 – The night is lit up by an unknown light. Scientists said it was an aurora borealis BUT it never registered on any astronomical equipment. Sister Lucia said it was NOT an aurora borealis.

    1942 – Pius XII – consecrates the WORLD to Our Lady. Our Lord said the war would be shortened.

    In the 1950s, Our Lady told Sister Lucia:

    “Make it known to the Holy Father that I am awaiting the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without the consecration, Russia will not be able to convert, nor will the world have peace.”

    Pius XII – 1952 – consecrated Russia BUT WITHOUT all the bishops. Our Lord told Sister Lucia that this was insufficient.

    John XXIII – didn’t do it.

    Paul VI – didn’t do it but declared Our Lady Mother of the Church

    John Paul I – died after 33 days

    John Paul II – consecrated the WORLD – NOT Russia – in 1982, 1984 and 2000. Russia was not even mentioned in *any* of these consecrations, *nor* were they performed in union with all the bishops of the world.

    Benedict XVI – didn’t do it

    Francis – 2013 & 2017 – entrusted the WORLD to Our Lady – no mention of Russia. Saturday he’s supposed to entrust the WORLD (again) to Our

    When God wants something done, He wants it done HIS way. NO politician, diplomatic treaties etc, is going to bring world peace.

    Furthermore, the consistent testimony of +Sister Lucia over 50+ years is that the pope and the bishops must consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on the same day at the same hour. The Fatima Center debunked fake letters (supposedly written by Sister Lucia) years ago.

    I highly recommend that everyone check out http://www.fatima.org. They’re the best resource on Fatima.

    Reply
    • Do you have documentation that Our LORD told Sr. Lucia that the July 7, 1952 specific consecration of Russia was “insufficient”? If Our Lord gave partial credit for the 1942 world consecration, what would He do for the specific consecration of Russia in this letter? Nothing?? The only thing mentioned in the 1957 Fr. Fuentes interview states that we, the lay Catholics, the good and bad, are not paying attention to her message– to pray the rosary, acts of penance and reparation. I do not know if Sr. Lucia was even aware of the July 7, 1952 apostolic letter of consecration of Russia. Is there documentation between Pope Pius XII and Sr. Lucia on this matter?

      Reply
    • Tell us when the consecration of Russia occurred, hmm ? 99 years later, and we are still waiting. What is the point of the concentration of Russia now, in 2017 ? Now, in 2017, the danger is not Russia, but:

      1) The existential threat from Islam, which is aggressive, murderous, and missionary;

      2) A secularism that is taken for granted, even by Rome;

      3) The utter collapse of the Church in many nations;

      4) The abortion by the Popes of the missions.

      – to name a few problems.

      Russia is not the problem. It is infuriating that something so desperately out of date as this consecration is looked to for help. It is magical thinking to suppose that, if that were made, these other enormous problems would come right.

      Reply
      • I agree that the items that you mention above (and more) are problems. These things need to be addressed too. But you set up a false dichotomy. It’s not either/ or. It is both/ and.

        Disobedience to the express will of God (as revealed by his mother) is never wise. An explicit request for the consecration of Russia was made by Our Lady. It was not done as she asked.

        When WWIII begins, with Russia and China on one side and the USA and NATO on the other side, then tell me again how Russia is not a problem.

        Reply
        • Yes Susan. You say it well. Sometimes we have to follow the trail back to the beginning to get started on the right path. Ignoring specific requests from Heaven, requests backed up by a phenomenal PUBLIC miracle, does not make Fatima a distraction. It makes it central to our very survival as a Church and as a world.

          Reply
      • Trust in and obedience to the Blessed Mother is magical thinking? Well, that’s an interesting point of view – and one to which you are wholly entitled, if you choose. You are not terribly familiar, I guess, with the role of the Queen Mother in the kingdom, nor, would it appear, France and the Sun King and his unfortunate decision?

        You are quite right, at least, on one count. Russia is not the problem. It is and will be the face of it, however.

        Reply
      • We know for certain that Sr Lucy for 5 years (from 1984 to 1989) didn’t cease saying many times that the consecration wasn’t properly done. Then she changed her declarations with a laconic “the Consecration has been accepted by Heavens”
        How could that be? The local bishop of Fatima Mgr Do Amaral clumsily acknowledged that he himself had conveyed from the Vatican the order to say so.
        As a professed carmelite, under her vow of strict obedience to her superiors Sr Lucy couldn’t do otherwise but to comply.
        Like Galileo obliged by the Holy Inquisition Court to say that the sun circles around Earth, sighging: “E pur si muove”

        Reply
      • I believe that the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary will result in the conversion of Muslims and Jews to the Catholic Faith. A supernatural event may be coming very soon.

        Reply
      • It doesn’t matter if Russia is the problem or not, Russia is the
        country chosen by Heaven to be consecrated to the Immaculate
        Heart by the Pope in union with the bishops of the world. The
        promise is that, after this is done, a period of peace will be given to
        the WORLD, not just that Russia will be converted. However,
        the approved Akita vision (I think 1972) does say that Russia is still a problem. Paraphrasing – Russia and her secret armies will invade and
        overrun Europe. Although at this point, I have to say, that after the
        US broke the agreement that Reagan made with the Russians,
        I’m not sure that this wouldn’t be done in self defense.

        Reply
  3. You know, I have been tempted in recent years to try to “forget” Fatima, to act as if it were all over or at least to downplay it. This has come partly (I have to say it) from the sheer fanaticism of a certain Traditionalist element which treats the whole Fatima episode as the most important thing to have happened in the Church’s life since the Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Then a couple of weeks ago I was enrolled in the Militia Immaculatae, the great Marian apostolate of St. Maximilian Kolbe, reborn worldwide in its traditional form by Father Stehlin of the SSPX (it died a death after Vatican II, along with everything else) and I find myself defending Fatima strongly again as I once used to. In other words, very much in an Arinze-Burkian mould if not in the occasionally foaming at the mouth ‘Fatamist’ style. I am aware of the change in myself and find it … interesting.

    Reply
    • I came back from indifferentism to my original catholic Faith through the apparitions of Fatima: I couldn’t imagine that the sun dancing before 70000 scared people who came there because our Lady had foretold this huge event months beforehand, was a “mere distraction” since She said:
      “I will perform here a great miracle SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE”
      And then I believed too.
      Those who say learnedly “It’s a private revelation, the Church teaches that there is no obligation to trust it” will they ever believe when the sun will dance before their eyes?
      Not so sure…

      Reply
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          • It hasn’t. The spam filter in our comment box has always done a good job, but somehow these people (in click farms in Pakistan, it appears by the IP addresses) are finding a way through.

            It’s like whack-a-mole.

    • sheer fanaticism of a certain Traditionalist element

      Not only that, but the whole thing doesn’t smell right. Didn’t Mary ask the servants at Cana to “Do whatever he tells you”, instead of Jesus instructing people to follow his mother? Similarly Luke 11:27-28 casts doubt on the idea that Mary, as a holy woman, would be anything other than humble and submissive.

      With the Fatima apparitions we are asked instead to believe that Mary is a spirit prone to appearing in dramatic fashion and demanding adulation in return for influencing her son. Is this idea possibly a symptom of the feminization of the Church and a stealthy manifestation of some sort of “girl power”, even if many promoting it in the hierarchy aren’t biologically female?

      Reply
      • Mary is not a “spirit”. She was assumed into Heaven bodily and her approved apparitions are hardly “dramatic”. No, she is not a circus turn as you suggest. Nor are her apparitions made on her own behalf but in the name of God. Nor has she “demanded adulation”.

        I think you are way, way off with your speculations. Are you a passing protestant by any chance?

        Reply
        • Was seen in Rome too by the Pope at the time was it not? I read that somewhere anyway. People casting doubts at this point is really astonishing and really as Johnny pointed out below, does smell of protestantism.

          Reply
      • You demonstrate the most appalling ignorance of Catholic doctrine, firmly founded in the Deposit of Faith, as it pertains to Mary’s unique role in salvation history. There are no new doctrines but there is a development of doctrine within history. That Mary is the “Theotokos”; (the one who bears the One who is God); Mary’s Perpetual Virginity; the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption have all been dogmatically defined. There remains one dogma yet to be defined, but nonetheless contained within the Deposit of Faith, and that is that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Grace, Co-Redemptrix with her Divine Son, and our Advocate. This advocacy was clearly portrayed at Fatima, in a manner that is pregnant with meaning for the Jewish people. The star on the hem of her gown presents Mary as the new Queen Esther who pleads, this time, not with her husband, the king, but with her Son, the King of Justice, for humanity’s release from the bondage of sin into which we have placed ourselves by our rejection of God.

        You refer to the Marriage Feast of Cana. Did Mary seek adulation there, or did she discreetly, without drawing attention to herself, present the plight of the hosts to the only One who is able to resolve this, and all humanity’s difficulties? Did she not ‘mediate’ between the hosts and her Son. And since, as His mother, she had an influence with Him that was, and is not enjoyed by any other, was Mary, at Cana, not uniquely co-operative with Jesus in ‘redeeming’ the hosts from a potentially humiliating predicament? One which had the potential to make them social outcasts? You know the answer already. And Fatima is no different.

        Reply
      • You must have forgotten or did not know that for God to have his Son born of a woman, that woman had to be completely without sin from conception to natural death. There is no girl power, but the power of the Holy Spirit.

        Reply
    • “…a couple of weeks ago I was enrolled in the Militia Immaculatae, the great Marian apostolate of St. Maximilian Kolbe”

      I have been considering doing the same for at least several months now. Perhaps this is the nudge I need.

      Reply
  4. I have read Zavala’s book, and while reading it you just realized that Fatima is the strongest call to conversion the world has received from Heaven maybe since the Resurrection of our Lord. It is overwhelming, the book I think represents the message of Fatima to the core, some how it puts in front of you that there is an overwhelming urgency to live out the message of Fatima: prayer, penance and reparation for sin, all with Jesus and Mary by our side

    Reply
  5. I hope that in truth we are heading towards a great moment. The advantage that we have is that in the readings and gospels we know how each situation ends, whereas in life we have to wait for the pieces of the jigsaw to be put together by God.

    Reply
  6. Fatima is no distraction, but rather a punishment that is being executed right now before our very eyes. Who but the most deliberately obtuse would witness the devastation that has happened to the Church since Vatican II—especially now with Pope Francis–and not conclude that the smoke of Satan was present in the Church in the form of apostasies and heresies. And, day by day, the situation is only getting worse. Let us pray, do penance and do what Our Lady of Fatima asks us to do.

    Reply
  7. 1P5 “It is important to note that this idea (of Apostasy) is not contained anywhere in the revealed texts themselves; the three secrets of Fatima as offered to the public by the Vatican do not mention or in any clear way even insinuate an apostasy in the Church.”

    May I add to your informative comments? Firstly, I believe that apostasy is suggested in the revealed text. Secondly, various Vatican personages have publicly indicated as much in a less formal yet still authoritative manner than that “offered to the public by the Vatican.”

    In Sr Lucia’s fourth memoir she added the words; In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved, etc.” These words followed; “In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, which will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.” Then we have: “In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved, etc.” followed immediately by: “Tell this to no one …..”

    Fatima scholars concluded that the reference to “the dogma of the Faith in Portugal” was the first sentence of the Third Secret, and that the Third Secret dealt with a compromise of the Catholic faith in countries other than Portugal. Even secular journalists like Vittorio Messori reached similar conclusions.

    Cardinals Ratzinger, Ottaviani, Oddi, Father Schweigel (as mentioned), and even John Paul II and Sister Lucia indicated that the Third part of the Secret must contain a prophecy of a twin chastisement: an unprecedented crisis of faith and discipline in the Church amounting to widespread apostasy, as well as a material punishment of the whole world. (Friendly Reflections? Christopher Ferrara)

    Fr. Joaquin Alonso, the official archivist of Fatima and one of the greatest of all Fatima experts, deduced that the Third Secret dealt with apostasy in the Church and the negligence of the hierarchy. According to Frère François de Marie des Anges, “Father Alonso perceived how strong the content of the Secret was, and it alone had restrained the Popes from revealing it.”

    In a 1984 interview in the Italian periodical Jesus, Cardinal Ratzinger said that the Secret refers to “dangers to the Faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore to the life of the world … And then, the importance of the novissimi.” The novissimi are the events of the End Times.

    Amongst the various events of the End Times, identified by some of the Fathers of the Church and various Scriptural
    exegetes, is the Great Apostasy.

    JMJ

    Reply
  8. Cardinal Bertone was sent by the Holy Father to Coimbra Portugal to speak at length with Sr. Lucia. Later Bertone was asked if Sr. Lucia had more visions of Our Lady other than we know of. Cardinal Bertone answered “Yes”. So, there were more visions and perhaps more messages than we now know. Is Cardinal Bertone still alive? If so, he should be asked about the other visions to Sr. Lucia. We know that Sr. Lucia in a letter to Cardinal Caffara made known that the final battle between God and satan would be on marriage and the family. What else did Our Lady say to Sr. Lucia?

    Reply
    • Trouble is…would anyone believe a word Bertone said…? He’s had at least one chance already and it was far from convincing.

      Reply
      • We don’t know what an interview with Cardinal Bertone would accomplish. If the interview is brought about just for mere speculation and sensationalism, or if it would be so man can seek to better please God, it would depend on this. Cardinal Bertone is not in the entertainment business, so we would have to convince him of our good intentions.

        Reply
  9. Distraction from what?
    From how to be an adulterer and receive the Holy Eucharist?
    From how to life a carefree life and not go to confession?
    From how to be a Roman Catholic while not being in the least catechised?
    From how to be a disciple of Christ and a proponent of gender ideology?
    From how to be a priest and not uphold Holy Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the perennial Magisterium of the Church?
    From how to have your cake and eat it too?
    Yes, the private revelation of our Lord, through his Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary at Fatima is a distraction from all that extra-curricular double-talk delivered with the forked tongue.
    Well occupied with prayer and the penance of a life decidedly oriented to the Gospel leaves little time for the distractions provided for in the post-conciliar Church in the age of ecumenism.
    1517 celebrated in 2017 is the distraction.

    Reply
    • I guess I feel that Fatima does not fall into the category of “private” as some of the other apparitions do. Our Lady was so very specific about what Heaven wanted, no long messages over several years but short and to the point revelations and requests. And then she foretold the miracle on October 13 and then she came to the Cova at noon of that day and it happened. When has Heaven so manifestly declared itself and proved itself? This rises above “private’ and I think casts some real shadows over the refusal in 1960 to do what she asked. Everything she foretold came to be, including the threat of Russia which in 1917 was a defeated bankrupt country not yet under the total domination of communism. Francisco and Jacinta died very soon after she said they would. The strange light appeared in the sky in January 1938 and Hitler launched his first assault at conquest by accessing Austria. Hitler was heard to say that night that the light appeared: “Now we may shed blood.” This is remarkable in its accuracy on every point. The fact that the Church has failed to carry out Heaven’s requests is appalling. I don’t care what their excuses are. Appalling.

      Reply
          • What??? You don’t believe about Planet X???

            Seriously, you know this Nibiru Cataclysm theory does overlap with the authentic discovery of a seven-planet system back in February, right? Apparently a system that is stacked in precise musical resonance formation, as well:

            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/science/trappist-earth-size-planets-orbits-music.html

            Some say the system will collide with us in OCTOBER. And it is curious that the system is named TRAPPIST.

            What to make of all of it, who can say? These things register with me as my students bring them to me all the time. There is a LOT of looking for signs and wonders out there, IMHO a sad sign of how much authentic, solid and true religion is lacking to so many souls.

            All the possibly conspiratorial astronomy aside, here is one coming astronomical event that is absolutely real, as per high-end amateur astronomy friends who say NASA has authenticated that this formation will occur:

            https://youtu.be/_1y_hLqVXf4

            The Woman Clothed with the Sun
            September 23, 2017

            Comes immediately after the Jewish feast of Rosh Hashanah this year (Sept 21-22, 2017), which is the Feast of Trumpets.

          • The Woman Clothed With the Sun thing I think could be legitimate. There’s a much better write-up on it from The Remnant here, rather than that long youtube video:
            http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2127-apocalypse-now-another-great-sign-rises-in-the-heavens

            As far as the Trappist system, it won’t ever collide with us, ever, and anyone who says differently can be safely ignored on all other topics regarding any of the sciences or the natural world. A lot of folk really can’t conceive of the distances involved. As far as that article is concerned, it is wildly misleading anyway. We have an amazing spectacle of orbital resonance in our own solar system with the Galilean moons of Jupiter, in a perfect 1:2:4 resonance:
            http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/space-images/charts/orbital-resonances-of-galilean-moons.html

            Like most things from the New York Times, they don’t know what they are talking about, skimped on their research, and didn’t present much in the way of facts or information to help you understand anything. They can also be safely ignored on almost all subjects and topics. Fake News indeed.

            The Heavens do reveal the glory and splendor of God, and signs can definitely be sent using the heavens as a communication medium (Star of Bethlehem), but most of the time the signs are missed or imagined by people who don’t know enough to begin to speak the language written into the universe by the Creator.

          • The protestants are in a frenzy about 9/23, they think their 7 year rapture is about to occur. Sigh, please pray for these souls.

            Also, they have the date wrong, Jupiter exits (the woman gives birth) on 10/11, coincidentally John XXIII feast day. The very pope who was too have revealed the 3rd secret, the pope of 1960.

        • From anterview with Malachi Martin done with Bernard jantzen. I believe these interviews are on YouTube. I will see if I can source it for you.

          Reply
          • Yes Malachi was commenting on the cosmic event of 1938 which Our Lady predicted as the warning before WWII, and which Hitler correctly interpreted as a sign that blood was about to be shed. It is quite possible that from 2017 and onwards as we see the “mystery of iniquity” progresses that we will have another heavenly warning. This would also correspond with Garabandal.

        • This reply is more for Cetera than you Alter und weiser. I Probably should have said “there is a story that Hitler said…”. I don’t want to be accused of tinfoil hat wearing. ????Malachi Martin was usually dead on correct with things he said so I had no reason to suspect him of shilling for Planet X. I believe he mentioned Albert Speer recalling this but I wouldn’t want to swear to it. I will try to track it down.

          Reply
        • In Albert Speer’s ‘Inside the Third Reich’, in a chapter detailing the autumn of 1939 as Hitler prepared to invade Poland, is found the following passage on pages 234, 235.

          ‘In the course of the night we stood on the terrace of the Berghof with Hitler and marveled at a rare natural spectacle. Northern lights of unusual intensity threw red light on the legend-haunted Untersberg across the valley, while the sky above shimmered in all the colors of the rainbow. The last act of the Gotterdammerung could not have been more effectively staged. The same red light bathed our faces and our hands. The display produced a curiously pensive mood among us. Abruptly turning to one of his military adjutants, Hitler said: “Looks like a great deal of blood. This time we won’t bring it off without violence.”

          (“This time” was Hitler referring back to the bloodless takeovers of Austria and Czechoslovakia that preceded his grab for Poland.)’

          This account contradicts the 25 Jan 1938 account of Sr Lucia although I have seen a report that Hitler and his Minister for Armaments, Albert Speer, were standing on the Chancellory balcony and observed the aurora borealis which was seen throughout Europe. Speer related that Hitler remarked: “There is my sign.” Six weeks later German troops occupied Austria.
          (“There is my sign,” Probably in ‘Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth,’ Gitta Sereny)

          There may have been two occurrences given the different dates, different locations and different words by Hitler.

          JMJ

          Reply
  10. The issue is made clear via the approved apparition of our Lady of Akita who stated on October 13, 1973 (the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima)

    The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

    “The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them”

    Reply
  11. Our Lady gave us a peace plan from Heaven and backed it up with a great and predicted miracle witnessed by 10s of thousands. Those who adhered to it such as enough in Austria did from 1948-1955 and prayed and sacrificed to end the communist regime had the communists pull out without blood shed. That is only one example. Our Lady always points to Jesus!!! At every authentic place of apparition, there is now a church where the Holy Sacrifice is offered and her Divine Son is glorified.
    Think about this: those who most strongly promote the messages of Fatima are greatly persecuted such as Fr. Gruner was, such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate with their holy Days with Mary retreats are. So ask yourself: would heaven not want the holy message to go out or would the enemy be the one to stand against it?

    Reply
  12. The refusal to publish the Third Secret in 1960, and the refusal by all Popes to date to do the consecration, betoken a view of the laity as the great unwashed, an unruly, thoughtless herd, who might stampede if riled up by the truth.

    The German bishops threatened JPII with a cutoff of funds to the Polish Church if he did not make Kasper a Cardinal. Instead of going to the balcony and exposing their blackmail, JPII made a Cardinal of a known heretic. BXVI is known to have been b!ackmailed in similar way.

    Fatima is held in contempt by millions precisely because of all the tales of envelopes within enve!opes, letters held up to the light, this envelope lying on the Pope’s desk for years, that envelope consigned to “an archive like a deep well.”

    Enough of the little boys and their “secrets” and handshakes and archives!

    Reply
    • You know Im glad you mentioned that about JPII and Kasper as I have been uneasy to say the least with the bishops appointed in his reign. Malachi Martin raises the same question in his 1990s interviews. “Why make him a bishop?” he says.

      Reply
  13. I am beginning to think that there is a whole world of truth in the saying, “It’s not official until it’s denied.” I don’t know who to attribute that to, but it seems to sum up the situation in the media, in politics and in the church.

    Reply
  14. A distraction? Hardly. On the contrary, Fatima is central to our current crisis in the Church. Our Lady’s requests at Fatima and in subsequent years to Sister Lucia, were treated miserably by the Church. One word springs to mind; faithlessness. The Church responded in a faithless manner. It found pretexts, excuses and procrastinations in order to avoid complying humbly and thoroughly with Our Lady’s requests. At the root of it all was a lack of faith, a lack of trust in God and His Mother. Too much worldliness, too much pragmatism, too much human wisdom.

    Salvation history tells us that it’s never wise to doubt or question God or one of His prophets. It always ends badly. Read the Old Testament and see the misfortunes which befell the Israelites when they ignored or scorned a prophet or doubted God. Faithlessness leads to disaster and it’s happened again.

    Our faithless response to Fatima is the reason we’re now afflicted with a faithless rogue in the Chair of Peter. He’s a punishment for a faithless Church. If faithlessness is what you want, faithlessness is what you get.

    Reply
    • Indeed St John Eudes says the following:

      “THE MOST EVIDENT MARK of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clerics’ who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than the charity and affection of devoted shepherds.”

      Now when he allows the Chair of St Peter to fall into the hands of a blasphemous man, how angry is He?

      Reply
  15. PARENTS

    “Parents are responsible for the guidance and the salvation now of their children’s souls. Discipline must be returned to the homes, and parents must set an example of purity and godliness in their homes. Do not expect others to replace you in guiding your children. It is your duty; it is your purpose; it is your station in life; and you will not reject your responsibility, for then you reject your children and will cast them onto the road to hell.” – Jesus, April 10, 1976

    CHARISMATIC RENEWAL

    “Many call upon the Holy Spirit, My child, but the spirits they invoke are not from Heaven and the light. They come up fast from the abyss. Flee! Have no part of these gatherings, for they are not from the light…. You need not this diversion. My Son is always with you in the Eucharist.” – Our Lady, June 15, 1974

    HOMOSEXUALITY

    “Homosexuality shall not be condoned. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Eternal Father, and as such, is condemning many to hell.” – Jesus, June 18. 1991

    MITRES

    “There will be many mitres in hell. Many priests are on the road to damnation; with them they take others. For this, the lowest pit of the abyss will be eternity! Those entrusted in My Son’s House w ill be held accountable for the fall of young souls. Your rank will be no guarantee of your entrance into the Kingdom.” – Our Lady, July 25, 1972

    COMMANDMENTS

    “These are the Commandments of the Father. Break one and the gates of hell are open to you.” – Moses, March 24, 1974

    LENIN, STALIN

    “Lenin and Stalin are not with Us. They were cast off to meet with their god, the prince of darkness, satan. “It behooves Me to say, and it tears My heart in anguish, that they did not seek to be saved.” – Our Lady, June 18, 1992

    TEILHARD, ROOSEVELT

    “My child, you will not hesitate in revealing the knowledge of truth. Teilhard de Chardin is in hell! Your leader, Roosevelt, is in hell! Franklin Roosevelt, My child. His spirit is one of darkness. He enters anew upon earth from the abyss.” – Our Lady, September 13, 1975

    LOVE OR FEAR

    “Yes, My child, you will feel faint at the knowledge of the existence of hell. Better that mankind has fear of the Eternal Father if he does not have love! For now many are in a void of spirit. They neither know their God, nor do they care to know their God.” – Our Lady, March 29, 1975

    DARKEST PIT

    “Do not fall for the error created by satan through mankind that all will be saved in the end. Many have passed over the veil, never having this opportunity to make amends, and have been sent to the darkest pit of hell.” – Jesus, August 14, 1976

    ABORTION

    “I say unto you, as your Mother, that any man or woman who performs or takes part of this abomination of the murder of the unborn shall be given a heavy penance upon earth, or if this penance is not given upon earth, that person found guilty in the eyes of his God shall suffer eternal damnation in the fires of hell.” – Our Lady, December 28, 1976

    FOOLISH

    “How foolish those who choose the easy road, the road that leads to darkness. How sad that they exchange a life of beauty in the Kingdom for the torments of damnation in hell with Lucifer.” – Our Lady, February 10, 1973

    RETAINED

    “It has grieved Me much in the past, as it grieves Me now, that mankind is making changes to My words…. Heaven, hell, purgatory, and especially, My children, the word hell must be retained in your prayers.” – Jesus, February 10, 1977

    SNOWFLAKES

    “Sin has now become a way of life in your world. The souls continue to fall into hell as numerous as the snowflakes that fall from the heavens!” – Our Lady, March 25, 1973

    Bayside Prophecies

    Reply
      • Let me assure you that “James M” is very far from being a fool. I don’t think he has commented here before, but he was a regular poster on various British Catholic blogs that have either disappeared (the Daily Telegraph’s ‘Holy Smoke’ for instance) or were shut down by the Bishops (‘Protect the Pope’), and was one of the more erudite and knowledgeable commentators, but one with occasional radical and surprising views on certain things.

        Reply
  16. Here is my favorite thing about Fatima and Our Lady’s work there: Her Rosary is the perfect “carve around” from all the rest of the mayhem in the Church. Keeping apart from the “Luminous Mysteries,” which never really caught on anyway (see, there IS a God! 🙂 the traditional Rosary makes for a perfect capsule of the Faith. Moreover, it is portable, easily folded into the day, stands quite apart from all the controversies that buffet us every moment (“WHO said WHAT?????!!!!!”), is extra-Liturgical and so not subject to much focus by those prelates looking for every chance to push us towards protestantized-worship, and as an added bonus — a gift to us from Our Lady herself, who as a good Mother knows our heartache and weariness with all that has gone on since VII — it provides a profound moment of calm and quiet and depth and beauty and meaning and power for good, and much, much more to all of us, at any moment, any day, any time. So simple it is easily overlooked. It reminds me of the words of The Little Prince: “Here is my secret. It is very simple: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.” — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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  17. I have been thinking of this article since this morning. We Traditionalists have had one major division, and that was the March 25, 1984 Consecration made by St. John Paul ll. Some hold it wasn’t valid while others hold it was valid. Cardinal Raymond Burke has healed this wound. By saying the Consecration of 1984 was valid but that the failure to mention Russia was a mistake. Burke cited St. John Paul ll that the Consecration can be done again and again. So now he proposes that the Consecration be done again with the specific mention of “Russia”. If we all agree on this then the wound is healed. And we can be a Traditional United Force in union with the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, against satan. May God continue to Bless Raymond Cardinal Burke.

    Reply
    • The Consecration of 1984 was valid like ALL the consecrations a Pope can perform are valid.
      But the true aims of the Consecration of Russia our Lady required was missed since JPII consecrated the whole word, not specifically Russia. Hence cardinal Burke’s reaction.
      It is sad to see that a courageous Pope who succesfully confronted the atheistic communist world and mainly the Soviet Union surrendered to his advisers who forbade him uttering the word Russia

      Reply
      • Jaques Dumon, When the 1984 Consecration was made, the Catholic world was instructed that it was the intention of Pope John Paul ll to fulfill the consecration asked for by Our Lady. It was to finally be the Collegial consecration. We all knew it at that time, no one doubted it. It wasn’t until after the consecration was made that all the hoopla that Russia was not mentioned soured the Holy Father’s intentions and the consecration. That itself caused an unprecedented damage of unbelievable proportions to the message of Fatima. It caused a split among Fatima devotees, causing us to break from the Fatima message itself. St. John Paul ll was in fact as you say a courageous Pope, we can now see that many of his advisers were working against Him and working against the Church. It is also now clear that the Holy Father having trusted these men was not aware of the evil they were plotting and doing. When Pope Benedict was elected as Successor to St. Peter he asked the world to pray for him that he would not flee for fear of the wolves. This tells me that both St. John Paul ll and Cardinal Ratzinger had become aware of the real presence of the wolves. Cradinal Burke has now asked for a repeat of the Consecration with Russia mentioned. This should unite all Fatima devotees. But it is in danger of failing apart again because of the mere judgment of man just as happened to the 1984 consecration.

        Reply
          • The Great Stalin, I remember that great day of March 25, 1984, we were all told that the consecration as asked for by Our Lady was going to be done. If memory serves me right the word “consecration” was not used. The word used by His Holiness was “Entrustment”. Sr. Lucia cleared that up with the words, “Consecration and Entrustment mean the same thing”. Sr. Lucia to her last dying breath said, “Heaven has accepted it”. If we can’t believe Sr. Lucia then there is no one to believe. We are left only with this, its a private revelation of which we need not give credence according to Pope Urban. The Church should ignore these Fatima private revelations, perhaps it would serve the Church better. We can dwell on the Modernist heresies plaguing the Church.

          • “The Church should ignore these Fatima private revelations, perhaps it would serve the Church better. We can dwell on the Modernist heresies plaguing the Church.”

            The two are intimately connected.

            My guess (nothing more than that) is that Sister Lucia was persuaded of the need to reverse her position. For what reason, I cannot guess. It’s shrouded in mystery.

            But Fatima is far from over.

          • The Great Stalin, That Sr. Lucia reversed her position, I’m sure this fabrication is the work of the evil one. St. John Paul ll sent the text of the consecration to Sr. Lucia beforehand for approval and she approved it. It was soon after that, she said “Heaven has accepted it.” Now we have many contradictory stories of what took place. To be frank, Fatima has turned into a tower of Babel, everyone has a different version of Fatima. Sr. Lucia complained to the Holy Father that a certain priest was proclaiming things that she supposedly said to him, which were not her words. Recently I debated someone on the word “Russia” in the consecration. At one point I mentioned that the Child Jesus and His Holy Mother appeared to Sr. Lucia, Jesus said to her, “Have pity on the Heart of your Mother pierced with thorns at every moment by ungrateful men. You at least console Her”. I was accused of inventing this. Say what!!! When Sr. Lucia complained that the certain priest was causing great damage to the message of Fatima, I believed it and now I’m seeing it. People are demanding to know what the so called second part of the Third Secret is when they are not even paying attention to what Sr. Lucia has already written in her memoirs. I hold that concerning Fatima it is time to return to basics. If not then we have a Fatima in ruins. I’m tossing all books on Fatima out of my library and keeping only Fatima In Lucia’s Own Words volumes l and ll, Calls by Sr. Lucia and the Biography of the Nuns who lived with Sr. Lucia, some for over 50 years. This way I read the truth and do what Our Lady asked of us. Because of the positions I hold I know I will be Blacklisted, many sites have already done so. God has granted me the grace of loving and seeking Truth, I dread the thought of straying from this. There is so much known about Our Lady of Fatima that unless by a special grace from God we will never come to a complete understanding of it all. In light of this, People are demanding to know more? When they don’t even pay attention to what is already known. Judging the Holy Father St. John Paul ll? When it was he who did all in his Papal power to do what Our Lady asked for! Like I said its time to go back to basics. I suspect that the evil priest Fr. Nicholas Gruner who knew well what he was doing was influenced by Modernism or perhaps was a Mason who set out to destroy Fatima in the hearts of the faithful. Why else would he according to Sr. Lucia was “Causing great damage to the message of Fatima”.

  18. Vote distraction

    People seem to forget Marian apparitions are not part of the Deposit of Faith. If a few people want to pay attention to them, fine, but don’t expect the rest of us to.

    As far as “mysteries” that should raise flags. Scientologists have secrets that you can learn only after you have advanced to a certain level (and paid plenty to the organization.) Secrets are the hallmarks of cults and dysfunctional organizations.

    Jesus preached on the Mount and on the Plain and in the Temple. No secrets. Christianity isn’t built on secrets unless you believe in wacky Dan Brown novel plots.

    Reply
    • ‘Despise not prophecies.’ 1 Thess 5:20

      Fr Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary. “Do not oppose either the interior gifts of the holy Spirit, which are his
      graces, nor his exterior gifts of prophecy. Take the regular precautions of prudence, that you be not deceived by those who pretend to be inspired; but when satisfied that the inspiration comes from heaven, do not despise it.

      Reply
    • 1 Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy.
      1 Corinthians 14;1

      St. Thomas Aquinas on prophecy:
      “not for the purpose of announcing new doctrines but rather to guide the affairs of men:”

      Reply
  19. There is an interview with the author of an old Fatima book, Fr. Michel of the
    Holy Trinity, I think, that says that Sister Lucy said the 3rd Secret is in St. John’s apocalypse chapters 8-13. Since I can’t make heads or tails out of the
    Book of Revelation, I went looking for the Catholic explanation, and found this
    extremely interesting sermon:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVyKUDhhT30

    Reply
    • Here’s a hint for you to begin your research, the constellation mentioned in the 12th chapter of the Apocalypse (A woman clothed with the sun, etc, etc.) occurs on one day only and never again in history will it occur: October 10, 2017.
      Also the feast day for Saint John XXIII, the very pope who was to have made the consecration in 1960 as this was the day in history he opened the Second Vatican Council which let in so much “fresh air”
      Hmmm, what a coinkydink.

      Reply
  20. I know I’m a pedant but may I say what I REALLY hate about Fatima? That people call her “Sister Lucy”. Her name wasn’t Sister Lucy, it was Sister Lucia. PLEASE will people call her by her proper name in religion! I know Father Gruner and John Vennari called her “Lucy” and they bloody well annoyed me too (at least on this question).

    Reply
    • I’ve seen both versions of her name in publications by the Fatima Center (oops, make that Centre – Queen’s English).

      Reply
  21. I was never really “into” Fatima, and still can’t relate to the concept of “secrets”. But with the Storm upon us, and things getting worse by the day, I first took some comfort in the message of Our Lady of Quito. This led to a genuine appreciation of her appearance at Fatima. The hundredth anniversary certainly adds to the sense of urgency. I can’t see what it would be a distraction from, given that I now pray a daily Rosary, and had not until last year.

    Reply
    • Good. Your daily rosary along with mine and first saturday act of reparation are what will get the consecration of Russia done “late, but not too late”.

      Reply
  22. Not being facetious but may God speed the day when those distracted by Fátima number in the tens of millions.

    Reply
  23. Thanks for bringing up this great point – apostasy in the Church. It’s right there in the heart of the Church for sure. The materialism, vanities, fame, and worldly pursuits have created an apostasy that won’t quit. The sense of people who feel they can commit sins such as greed, lust for power, security of their own wealth, “fun with Jesus” attitudes are in a state of apostasy. When you remember that one of the Holy Evangelical Counsels is Holy Poverty, one need not go far to realize why people are not getting evangelized or catechized properly. People are constantly falling away. They come for a bit thinking they are going to be okay living the way they do in the material world and feel no love from Christ’s Presence. Then they disbelieve. The Church is in a bad state in this regard. God is Spirit. All things are illuminated through the Holy Spirit. Jesus ascended into Heaven and is not with us, but He is always with us. What part of the world’s goods does He involve. None. Your article is certainly perceptive.

    Reply
  24. It would seem, w/r/t Russia, that the horse is, as it were, out of the barn.

    As for apostasy, it is very clearly in full swing. Does it matter if it was predicted at Fatima?

    Reply
  25. The whole message of Fatima includes Mary’s promise that Joseph and the Child Jesus would come in October to bless the world and this, I believe, is very important. Joseph and the Child Jesus appeared and blessed the world together, three times. If we see Jesus as true God and true Man, and as God having only one, single, infinite, indivisible, eternally in the present tense thought, WORD, which contains the entire will of God, which cannot change and therefore when Jesus perfectly revealed the eternal will of God by loving, honoring and obeying Joseph as the head of the family, if we see Jesus in this way, then we should copy Him and will to love, honor and be subject to Joseph and seek God’s blessings of world peace through the blessings of St. Joseph. Maybe then, God will fulfill what He has eternally willed to do?

    Reply
  26. My main problem with Fatima is when you really look at it. It’s essentially a threat against a Pope. “Do this…or else…” I think it would be a grave mistake for a Pope to acquiesce to a threat disguised as a “request” from an apparition. Reason: The Keys to the Kingdom are in Peter’s hands. He doesn’t pass the responsibility off. No one orders the Pope to exercise his power. An apparition of our Lady doing just that tells me, that message is not from our Lady. Also, no other apparition has ever had a Church/politics angle to it with a demand for the Pope. “Secrets” are not God’s usual mode of operation. It has a taint of gnosis about it. But the main problem is the subtle attack on the authority of the Pope. He becomes the puppet of seers, visionaries and apparitions. I think the fact that no consecration has occurred has been due to the protection of the Holy Ghost.

    Reply
          • Hmmm.. Impressive answer. But, looking over your posts, you seem to have some grasp of what’s actually going on in the Church. You even have paid attention to Fr. Malachi Martin.
            Why suddenly such a theological clod ? Are you an apparition-chaser that can’t handle reality creeping in on the antecedent perceptions?

        • No reason for such hostility here, and it’s not taken kindly.
          You need to take a look out our comment policy. https://onepeterfive.wpengine.com/comment-policy/

          1. Refrain from personal attacks and insults; focus your response on the argument, not the individual. Do not insult 1P5 staff or writers.

          This is the only warning you get.

          You also might want to take your own advice. You’re looking like a jacka$$ yourself.

          Reply
          • Don’t worry about it, we’re cool. That was all settled and the poster who was attempting to bully me apologized and deleted their insulting comments and they’ve earned my respect for that. If you look further down the thread…

            “J Matthews

            Gerard

            3 days ago

            Edited

            Gerard after a friendly fraternal correction from The Great Stalin.
            My apologies to you.”

            So few people do that nowadays. Anyway, no harm, no foul.

            Any thoughts on the topic at hand? The water’s warm if you want to jump in.

    • Gerard,
      First, I believe it is not right to say that is was not Mary at Fatima, since the Church approves the apparition. Second you seem to think that peace for the world is something the world deserves it does not. This brings an understanding to the message. First God by his grace and not because of merits will bring peace to the world, but as a condition of this release of grace is through the intercession of his Blessed Mother. Mary is not demanding anything at Fatima, Jesus is, he is demanding that the Pope in union with the bishops consecrate Russia to his Mother’s Immaculate heart. Jesus is God and can demand anything of anyone. Third Peter was order by the Holy Ghost to exercise his power in the admission of the Gentiles to the Church. Remember, an Angel, vision by Peter than Peter being told to go with them. So, the Pope has been order by God to exercise his power. Fourth, it is generally true God does not usually operate in secret but he does hold revelation to be revealed in the prober course of time which is exactly what Our Lady did at Fatima when she gave the three secrets they were not supposed to be secret forever but revealed at the prober time. God has done this many times in salvation history and the life of his Church.

      Reply
      • First, Let me say, “thank you” for actually addressing the issue and not simply engaging in baiting and ridicule.

        To address your comments:
        Apparitions are always optional for believe in the Church. An approval is based on human knowledge and not guaranteed by any charism of infallibility. It is only as reliable as human understanding can be. Like Nihil Obstats or Imprimaturs, they are not airtight. So I am free to say that I do not believe in Fatima or any particular part of it.

        Next, does the world deserve peace? I don’t believe I stated that at any point. My position is that the “promises” of Fatima are enticing specifically on the human level. They have a promise of an end of human conflict for a long while. There are parallels that can be made to the Temptations of Christ being shown all the cities of the world and being promised them if He will just bow down and worship Satan.

        Next, I firmly believe in the intercessory power of the saints and especially the Blessed Mother, but the request/command/thread of Fatima for the consecration has an “either do this….or that will occur…” That is something that doesn’t occur in any other approved apparition.

        Regarding Peter: Peter was the first and only Pope to receive Divine and public Revelation. The Revelation of the Church ended with the death of the Apostle John. That is Catholic dogma. I would also argue that Angels freeing Peter from physical chains at the request of the faithful is different from the Pope being ordered to do something third hand by an apparition.

        Regarding Revelation: There is no new Revelation. The job of the Pope is to protect the deposit of faith. Vatican I infallibly states: ” For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.”

        Finally, the Pope is the one with the Keys, the Holy Ghost is there to prevent him from falling into error in faith and morals in binding the Universal Church. It was Jesus Himself that established this Divine order. There is no intercessory between God and the Pope in the running of the Church. Even the Blessed Mother has no authority in the Church. She cannot confect the Eucharist, she cannot absolve people of sin. Our Lord would not contradict Himself and She of course could not contradict our Lord and place herself in a position of authority over the Pope.

        Jesus would not command our Lady to pass along a message over the course of decades through a Portuguese child with an overt threat for the Pope to exercise his universal authority or he “will suffer greatly.” That blunt attempt to have the Pope use his authority under duress is the surest sign that this ‘act of consecration’ is not from Heaven. Visionaries and seers do not make nor pass along commands to the Pope. The Pope takes commands from no one. His office is Divinely established. There is no other like it in salvation history or human history and until Christ Himself returns and claims that authority for Himself, no Pope should “obey” any request with any kind of pressure applied through threats of global calamity or personal suffering.

        Reply
        • “They have a promise of an end of human conflict for a long while.”

          No. As Sister Lucia stated that the events of Fatima are to be unlocked via the key of the Apocalypse of St. John, the period of peace is likely to be a short one.

          Reply
        • Gerard

          First, you stated that it is a threat against the Pope. So, for you to say this means you believe that World Peace is deserved. Everything else the prophecy speaks about is only a prophecy of what would happen without the graces obtained to avoid it.

          Second, God has done that many time in humanity warned them if they did not do this, something bad would happen. Most of the time it has been about conversion and penance sound familiar?

          Third, that is not what you said you said “ No one orders the Pope to exercise his power” that has happen, that is why you stated not by an apparition. So, admit that has happen and then we can discuss whether an apparition has requested the Pope exercise his power or not. The fact that it was Peter means that certainly a lesser Pope could also be lead in the same way if the Prince of the Apostles was.

          Fourth, not sure I agree that Mary has no authority in the Church she is the Mother of the Church but that matters not. God has authority over the Church and he does not have to use ordinary means, and can send someone to ask the Pope to do something. Do you accept Our Lady of Guadalupe? The Bishop was asked by God through Mary to build a Church to obtain conversion. The Papacy is still just an office, in the Church even though it is the highest office in the world. Without Mary, there is no Papacy before the Papacy there was Mary, God did not need her, but he used her. Mary will be proclaimed Mediatrix of All Graces, all graces pass through her hands. Also, just because the Pope has the keys does not mean his is the only way that a Dogma is made manifest to the faithful there have been many ways God has showed the Church was she has always believed. Revelation in the since of no new faith or morals but not of prophecy or a clearer understanding of the faith meaning Dogma that have always believed gets proclaimed, certain scripture passages get defined and future events prophesied. You seemed to be not understanding what Mary said At Fatima “Our Lady said that God wished to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” I would also add that to me this is just God trying to show the world that the Pope is the Pope, the Church is the Church and Mary is Queen of Heaven.

          Fifth, Again, Jesus can pass a message any way he pleases and he does not have to use the ordinary means of communication. It is not a threat to tell someone the consequences of them not obtaining undeserved graces. Again, God told people many of times do this or this would happen. “The Pope takes commands from no one. His office is Divinely established. There is no other like it in salvation history or human history and until Christ Himself returns and claims that authority for Himself,” I do not agree with this statement. The Pope takes commands from God and tradition. His is not an absolute Monarch. I could be mistaken but I thought the Office of the Papacy was foreshadowed in Judaism with the high priest and Moses it is not a total new and unheard of thing.

          Reply
          • disqus_v9mittul6h,

            It seems you are not quite understanding my point. It is a threat before it is a prophecy. The consecration has an “either do this…or that will happen” aspect to it. By that token you can call any attempt at extortion a prophecy and not a threat. World peace is irrelevant to the “extortion” language of the request/comman/threat. You can take the same prophecy and instead of a consecration insist that the Pope stick a banana in his ear to prevent calamity.

            No one is claiming that penance and conversion are not good things. God’s previous statements are directly attaching themselves to the conversion and the threat is not against God’s own divinely established offices. Moses made the demands and was the instruments of the threats against Pharoah, but Pharoah was a false god. Moses was never threatened by thirdhand accounts from God.

            On your third point, I stated that the Pope is subject to no one. Peter was helped by Angels, not threatened by them and commanded to consecrate this or that. And he certainly wasn’t told by someone else that Angels were commanding him to consecrate this or that, “..or suffer the consequences.”

            Your fourth point: Mary has no office in the Church. She is the ultimate helper. She is not the leader. Re: Our Lady of Guadalupe, what the bishop threatened that if he did not build a Church, nations will fall and he will suffer much? You keep presuming that this message is infallibly from God. I point out that the tone, nature and structure of the message proves it cannot be from God. God does not contradict Himself. He doesn’t give Peter the Keys and then send a messenger who sends another messenger who instructs him specifically what to do with a threat in the case of non-compliance. I agree the Pope is the Pope and the Church is the Church and Mary is Queen of Heaven, but that doesn’t mean she is the Pope’s boss on earth and neither is a visionary who acts as an intermediary between the BVM and the Pope. What proves it is the threat in the message.

            Your fifth point: The Pope does not take direct commands from God and tradition much less proxy commands from apparitions. He is bound to keep the faith secure. Christ gave him the authority he has.
            The Paraclete (the Holy Ghost) is the Helper. Christ will take the keys back when He returns, not before. And the Pope is an absolute monarch of the Vatican. He is also Supreme in the governance of the Church. That doesn’t mean he is infallible nor impeccable in governance or his theological opinion. But he would be foolish to submit his authority to requests of apparitions who put the pressure on by predicting calamity and personal suffering. Your point about Judaism is interesting because even though Jesus condemned the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders, He did not take away their legitimate claim to authority. He told people to do what they say because they sat on the chair of Moses and not what they do because of the nature of their sins. Caiaphas even had the gift of prophecy while condemning our Lord. And God never threatened them in order to coerce them to use their power.

            Good discussion. Thank you.

          • Gerard,

            First, It seems you are not understanding your point. You seem to forget that there was a threat against the church issued before 1917, why did the St. Michael prayer get established to be said after Mass? What has been Luther’s goal and the other goals of evil men but to destroy the Church. So, if the evil men are in a position to harm the Church and God’s decided that man doesn’t deserve this grace to avoid it because of the sinfulness of man but in his mercy gives away to avoid it through the intercession of his Mother how is this a threat. You seem to think that there has never been any threat to the papacy by evil or the church. Again, you seem to say if God says bad things will happen it is a threat, no it is just the natural course of action that would lead to the suffering.

            Second, really so, God did not establish Israel, the Kings of Israel and the high priest. If you remember in the old Covenant, the high priest where charged with a function that if that did not use right they would die sometimes. If you recall Aaron’s sons were priest for God vested with authority and commanded to burn incense to God but since they did not burn the incense the way God required they died. God in salvation history made many demands of his officers and gave them either do this or bad things happen ultimatums. Moses was commanded by God many times to use the authority God gave him dealing with Pharaoh and the people of Israel. I kind of think Jonah might disagree with you about being commanded to use the authority God gave you or bad things would happen to you. Again, it is not threats but prophecy of what would happen without graces.

            Third, Yes Peter was commanded to use his authority. Did he not baptize the gentiles because the Holy Ghost came upon them? So, Peter was compelled by the Holy Spirit to baptize and use his authority. Because it was the Pope who baptized the Gentiles no one could dispute the baptism or that the Church was Catholic. So, Peter was compelled by God to open the kingdom of Heaven to the Gentiles. Again, it is suffer what is going to happen without the graces that are not deserved. There is no guarantee that the Pope will never suffer or the Church will not. We are the Church suffering.

            Fourth, Still don’t agree Mary has no office in the Church, she is the Mother of the Church and Queen of the Church triumphant. Would there have been the amount of conversion in Mexico if the bishop did not obey the request? No, thus the bishop had the worst possible consequences loss of souls and I assume he would have suffered from that. No, I don’t assume the message is infallible, I just see no contradiction with how God has operated. Again you keep using the word threat, it is not a threat but a prophecy. The king of France was told to consecrate France to Our Lord’s Sacred Heart and if he didn’t the prophecy was what happened. Again, it is not a threat if God in his mercy gives graces to avoid a future outcome that will happen without the graces. So, does God preform miracles by suspending natural phenomenon or not? The ordinary way the phenomenon works is the way God set the order, so if he decides he can suspended the ordinary way. The ordinary way God communicate to the Pope or his Church does not mean that God is bound always to use that means, nor does the ordinary way God has the Hierarchical structure of the Church mean that everything always proceeds from the top down.

            Fifth, If I’m not mistaken, Yes the Pope does take direct commands from God, meaning he is bound by the law of God, revelation from God and by tradition established by God.

            No the Pope is not an absolute monarch, he cannot just make any law he wants, Stalin, Hitler and the like are examples of an absolute monarch. The Pope is supreme governance in the church bus as Christ is still Head of the Church and he is still just his vicar, thus Christ is still over him. Again, this is why he is not an absolute monarch there is someone above him and he can’t just do what he wants. Remember according to Christ the Pope is the servant of all. Question who did God send to the Jewish leaders first? A man crying out in the wilderness and not himself in person.

            This is not about a threat it is about prophecy of what would happen without graces and God gives a means to obtain those graces and what will happen if they are not obtained. What about the Apocalypse of St. John did not the Seven Churches face some serious consequences if they did not obey the commands of God?

          • Gerard,

            First, it is uncharitable to say “You can take the same prophecy and instead of a consecration insist that the Pope stick a banana in his ear to prevent calamity.” The Church has defined following the rule laid down by St. Paul to test all things. In Prophecy/revelation/vision it matters what the request is so we can know whether a prophecy is from God or not by the type of request made. Thus, if the request would have been for the Pope to put a banana in his ear we would know that it was not Mary there.

            Second, You have already stated that you have no problems with the penance and conversion part of the prophecy. You cannot have a problem with the consecration act itself because that in no way is a bad thing but a good thing. If I’m not mistaken consecration is to be consecrated for the use of God, especially through Mary.

            Your first argument against the prophecy is that God cannot require or order a man to use the position of authority God has allowed them to hold. This is not correct and is easily seen once you break it down to the above actual argument. First it matter not one’s state in life God can require you to do something in order to avoid personal calamity or for the salvation of others. Actual isn’t this already Catholic teaching we are to do what we can in our state of life for the salvation of others. Noah would be a good example here he had to build an ark to avoid destruction. Jonah is also another good example he had to go prophecy to Nineveh for their salvation. It matters not whether one is the Pope, God can and does require you to use the position he put you in for the salvation of souls and he can and does order you to do it. Salvation history is filled with other examples of God requiring or ordering people to use their state in life for their salvation and the salvation of others. Thus, your argument is false, because your premise is false.

            Your second argument is God cannot give a command and say do this or something bad will happen. This is also false, God has many times required certain action in salvation history to avoid calamity. Again, Noah had to build the ark or he would have perished. Jonah had to preach or he would suffer personally. The Israelites, Kings of Israel, and High priests had to follow the covenant or they would suffer. Again, there are many times in salvation history God has given a command and said do this to obtain my mercy or bad things will happen.

            In Our Lady of Guadalupe the Bishop had to build the church or the conversion would not have taken place which would have been a great calamity the loss of souls. I assume he would have suffered personally from losing souls under his care.

          • You missed my point again. I said that God will not use a threat against not a man in particular but an office He Himself established. God doesn’t undermine the papacy. I’m stating that the prudent and moral position for a Pope to take is not to heed the dubious requests of a far off apparition and a seer adding things over the decades. The proper action for the Pope in that case is to not put the papacy at risk by doing doubtful biddings of spirits or misleading seers.

            This is probably why the Popes have deliberately not followed the consecrations precisely and instead consecrated Russia and the World in their own formulas.

            But that doesn’t seem to be good enough for Sr. Lucia (or it may be depending on what she said, when) but it’s definitely not good enough for many Fatima followers who insist it has to be done “correctly.”

            Noah and Jonah were individuals in their state of life and the relationshop with God was direct. Fatima is ultimately a thirdhand account ordering the Pope to do something. With Noah, God gave him the order and then the means. With the Pope, he’s already got the order and the means, and now out of left field a “new order” comes along and if the man with the authority directly given by God doesn’t bow to the will of an indirect “request” there will be suffering. Sorry, that is not Catholic. That has more of the Devil showing Christ the Cities to it than it does any other Marian apparition.

            And I stated, you can’t say a “request” is a genuine “request” if it has a threat attached to it. The BVM is making a “request” to the Bishop of the Guadalupe Apparitions but he certainly wasn’t threatened beforehand if he didn’t do it.

          • Gerard,

            No, I didn’t miss your point. You just don’t want to see your premise is false. God, has told Israel, the high priest and his prophets to do things with their offices that he established or bad thing would happen. If God establishes an office he can direct the person to use the office yes or no? Again, the Pope is still a man and the Papacy is an office and God can require the Pope to use his office and tell him if he doesn’t bad things will happen. How we can discern things about God is has he acted that way before, God has acted in the same way with other men he can act that way with the Pope. Was it wrong of Gregory XI to listen to the third had account of St. Catherine of Siena and fulfill his vow to return to Rome?

            Commanding someone use the authority you gave them does not undermined that authority.

            You have not disproved my premise of my argument you just say it’s the Pope so no.

            Actually, the Popes did not do it deliberately.

            Again, God, sent first a man crying in the wilderness to the Children of Israel and the high priest preaching repentance before he came. Was, it only prudent and good of the high priest to not listen to John a third hand account that they needed to repent? He was in the chair of Moses, an office established by God.

            What are you talking about a new order and why did you leave out Jonah. A consecration is not new, neither is penance or conversion so what is this “new order” you are talking about? Jonah and Noah are good examples of God telling people to use their offices and state in life or bad things would happen. It doesn’t matter that they had a direct communication with God it matters that God give either or. Saul never had any direct communication with God but always had a third hand. Should the early Church have accepted Saint Paul all they had was a third hand account from a bad guy that he saw Jesus?

            Our Lady of Guadalupe, the loss of souls is not a threat to a bishop? You, cannot say that it was not a threat to the Bishop since if he didn’t do that the conversion would not have happen, unless you say the bishop would not have cared about those souls. Please explain how losing souls is not a threat to a bishop? Stop just saying it wasn’t a threat and explain your reasoning. I have explained why by your logic it would be a threat and not a request because the bad thing would happen losing souls.

          • No. My premise isn’t false, because you are arguing straw man examples.

            The period of public Revelation is over. That is dogma. Prophets do not come to the Pope like they did the O.T. Kings and the Scribes and Pharisees and give explicit direction. Any that claim to, are to be rejected. There is no new Public Revelation and there never will be.

            An individual given private Revelation is for their benefit, it’s not incumbent on the Church to accept it. And there is no infallible guarantee that if Churchmen accept it, that it’s genuine.

            Jonah was not a Pope in the post-Christian era when all that is necessary for salvation has been revealed. There will never be another Jonah, Moses or John the Baptist.

            St. Paul had his experience with Christ and went to St. Peter, but St. Peter was not commanded by Paul to do anything. And St. Peter was the first and last Pope to be given Divine Revelation. And again, St. Paul didn’t threaten St. Peter, “If you don’t accept me as an Apostle, you are going to be getting seriously hurt.”

            St. Catherine of Sienna gave the Pope practical advice that he accepted on its basis, He didn’t have to rename the Vatican after the BVM or “suffer the consequences.” No threat.

            The Bishop of Guadalupe was not under threat of the loss of souls. Souls are already in danger, the bishop is by himself a rescuer of souls, he can do things the BVM cannot. And the BVM did not order him to use those powers of his for her glory and tell him, if he didn’t, he was personally going to suffer for it. So, again, no threat.

            Fatima according to the most recent versions of it carries a threat against the Pope.

            The pecking order of the Church on earth goes: God (the Holy Ghost) and then the Pope. No angels, no saints are intermediaries in the exercise of the power of the Keys. The Pope is the final say so, any apparition that tries to command a Pope and uses a threat to try to enforce it, is of the Devil, not God.
            I find it astonishing that people can’t see this critical distinction. I wonder how people would accept it If a visionary came forward with a lot of razzle dazzle and long dead witnesses to a miracle and said that St. Joseph appeared to a group of children and he told them to tell the Pope to call together an ecumenical Council to declare his bodily assumption as a dogma and if the Pope doesn’t do this, “He will have much to suffer.”

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