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Vatican Sees No Impediment to Dialogue With Freemasonry


Some days, I just want to sit and stare off into space. Maybe imagine myself on a tropical beach somewhere, far from the Internet. Far from stories like this one, about a letter written by Gianfranco Cardinal Ravasi, President of the Pontifical Council for Culture…to “Brother Masons”:

Sunday, February 14, 2016

“…These various declarations on the incompatibility of the two memberships in the Church or in Freemasonry, do not impede, however, dialogue, as is explicitly stated in the German Bishops’ document that had already listed the specific areas of discussion, such as the communitarian dimension, works of charity, the fight against materialism, human dignity and knowledge of each other.

“Further, we need to rise above that stance from certain Catholic integralist spheres, which – in order to hit out at some exponents even in the Church’s hierarchy who displease them – have recourse to accusing them apodictically of being members of Freemasonry. In conclusion, as the German Bishops wrote, we need to go beyond reciprocal “hostility, insults and prejudices” since “in comparison to past centuries the tone and way of manifesting [our]differences has improved and changed” even if they [the differences] still remain in a clearly defined way.”

[Translation: Contributor Francesca Romana | Source: Il Timone]

Now, I know that many of you are well-versed on the longstanding conflict between Freemasonry and the Church. It’s not a topic I enjoy touching on too frequently, because good heavens does it lead to all kinds of weird commentary.

But Freemasonry is a real secret society. It is also true that Freemasonry has long been condemned by the Church as a sworn enemy of Catholicism. We explored this topic in some depth in our three-part series, Revolution in Tiara and Cope

The Church forbids Catholics from being Freemasons, full stop. It has done so for centuries. Here’s what Pope Leo XIII wrote about Freemasonry in his 1884 encyclical on the topic, Humanum Genus:

At so urgent a crisis, when so fierce and so pressing an onslaught is made upon the Christian name, it is Our office to point out the danger, to mark who are the adversaries, and to the best of Our power to make head against their plans and devices, that those may not perish whose salvation is committed to Us, and that the kingdom of Jesus Christ entrusted to Our charge may not stand and remain whole, but may be enlarged by an ever-increasing growth throughout the world.

The Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors, in their incessant watchfulness over the safety of the Christian people, were prompt in detecting the presence and the purpose of this capital enemy immediately it sprang into the light instead of hiding as a dark conspiracy; and, moreover, they took occasion with true foresight to give, as it were on their guard, and not allow themselves to be caught by the devices and snares laid out to deceive them.

The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year 1738,[3] and his constitution was confirmed and renewed by Benedict XIV.[4] Pius VII followed the same path;[5] and Leo XII, by his apostolic constitution, Quo Graviora,[6] put together the acts and decrees of former Pontiffs on this subject, and ratified and confirmed them forever. In the same sense spoke Pius VIII,[7] Gregory XVI,[8] and, many times over, Pius IX.[9]

For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right, to be pernicious no less to Christendom than to the State; and it forbade any one to enter the society, under the penalties which the Church is wont to inflict upon exceptionally guilty persons.

With me so far? Pope Leo called the rise of Freemasonry an “urgent crisis”, called Freemasonry a “dark conspiracy”, listed six popes who had addressed it, not including himself. He made clear that his pontificate denounced Freemasonry in no uncertain terms, and levied heavy penalties against those members of the faithful who would enter into it.

It’s a long encyclical, and I’m only quoting highights, but here is one that can’t go without mention:

[T]heir ultimate purpose forces itself into view — namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere naturalism.

An analysis of the political aims of Freemasonry follows, but that’s not my purpose here. Suffice to say, this encyclical is packed with ideas that will prick the American conscience, especially in an election year. But let me give you one last blast from good Pope Leo:

Knowing these things, both princes and people would act with political wisdom, and according to the needs of general safety, if, instead of joining with Freemasons to destroy the Church, they joined with the Church in repelling their attacks.

Whatever the future may be, in this grave and widespread evil it is Our duty, venerable brethren, to endeavor to find a remedy. And because We know that Our best and firmest hope of a remedy is in the power of that divine religion which the Freemasons hate in proportion to their fear of it, We think it to be of chief importance to call that most saving power to Our aid against the common enemy. Therefore, whatsoever the Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors have decreed for the purpose of opposing the undertakings and endeavors of the masonic sect, and whatsoever they have enacted to enter or withdraw men from societies of this kind, We ratify and confirm it all by our apostolic authority: and trusting greatly to the good will of Christians, We pray and beseech each one, for the sake of his eternal salvation, to be most conscientiously careful not in the least to depart from what the apostolic see has commanded in this matter.

We pray and beseech you, venerable brethren, to join your efforts with Ours, and earnestly to strive for the extirpation of this foul plague, which is creeping through the veins of the body politic. You have to defend the glory of God and the salvation of your neighbor; and with the object of your strife before you, neither courage nor strength will be wanting.

In case you’re wondering, yes, the rules against Catholics having anything to do with Freemasonry are still in force, if rarely mentioned.

So. You just read a summation of authoritative, Magisterial thought on this issue – thought compiled from the writings of seven popes.

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m pretty sure the the exhortation for Catholics to earnestly “strive for the extirpation of this foul plague” is not just fancy 19th-century papal talk for dialogue.

207 thoughts on “Vatican Sees No Impediment to Dialogue With Freemasonry”

    • And a well done too to the much maligned Malachi Martin (r.i.p.) whose “Windswept House” plot was sneered at by those who denied any Masonic influence in the Vatican.

      • If only more people would read his prophetic work’s! Hostage ti the devil is another of his works all Catholics should read!

        • If only more people would educate themselves about the credibility-destroying evidence of his split allegiances before recommending his writings to other Catholics.

          • Perhaps other Catholics have enough intelligence and discernment to decide for themselves where Fr. Maritn stood upon reading his work for themselves. I highly recommend them for the very fact that they are provocative!

          • Well, are they merely “provocative” or even “prophetic”, as you say?

            After citing messages in Windswept House as *evidence* against Freemasons whose alternate loyalties threaten the Church, isn’t it curious that you overlook Fr. Martin’s own incontestable record of continued cooperation with other entities committed to undermining Her?

          • Friend, I respect your insightful comments and have no desire to enter into a sparring match with you. I cherish you Catholic insight! I happen to to hold Fr. Martin in high regard having listened to all of his talks posted on youtube; however this is my personal opinion. Having said as much, I respect yours.

            I have not read all of his novel “Windswept House” but I have read “Hostage to the Devil” and I encourage you to read his post script regarding spiritual warfare, it is true to the magisterium, scared tradition and the catechism.

            Pax Vobiscum.

          • While I appreciate your civility, I must strenuously urge Catholics to disregard this author and speaker. I too had a keen ear for Fr. Martin, but the evidence against him is too pertinent to leave aside, even if I can appreciate his ability to reinforce the wills of some beleaguered Catholics. The marks against his credibility go straight to the message he circulated.

            I don’t like to discredit a man, much less a deceased man, much less a priest!

            Naturally, Catholics under fire will be intrigued by Martin’s material. Unfortunately, a significant number of them assign it greater eschatological import than Martin’s professional and personal record could ever warrant. That is, I believe, by Father’s own design.

            Et cum spiritu tuo

          • Well said, with respect; touche.

            With that said, I will research more deeply his past. If you have references to turn too I would appreciate them. Having experienced demonic oppression myself, I must say that Hostage to the Devil is spot on. Please read the post script, I would appreciate your insight.

            Deo Omnis Gloria..

          • You would do well to investigate critical Catholic analysis of transcripts of his interviews, especially with respect to Christ in His Passion.

            Professional ties to certain non-Christian entities concurrent with his (claimed?) involvement with Notra Aetate.

            Pseudonymous authoring of books.

            Involvement in illicit ordination(s).


            New York accommodations

            female priesthood

            I won’t sully the thread with links, but suffice to say the alleys are dark.

          • Yes, this is a man who said on Art Bell that Satan and Lucifer were two distinct beings. So much for an exorcist.

          • Perhaps they are! They are both mentioned in the Bible, not necessary meaning the same. What proof do you have ,that they are not?

          • The most that was conveyed as a reference was “critical Catholic analysis of transcripts of his interviews” which I searched for but could find none of online. Wikipedia had a what appeared to be an objective review of Fr. Martins life and work. What is apparent is that he made a lot of enemies who have gone to great length’s to discredit him. His work rings true to me and his love of Christ and Holy Mother Church is sincere, in my humble opinion.

          • I’ve read several of his books over the years and I have high respect for him. No doubt he had many enemies. He may (I don’t know) have made some mistakes or even (gasp) been a sinner. That wouldn’t invalidate what he had to say. In reading threads like this I’ve noticed there are people who (imho) seek to discredit, even defame, truth-tellers. But I’m open to any concrete info someone cares to present. NOT of the “he knew bad people” variety.

        • “Jesuits” by Fr. Martin details the heresies infecting that order since about 1850. He takes them to the wood shed; de Chardin not the least. Of all his books which I have read(4or5) what comes through is a very sincere love of the church and a love of Christ. Some suggest the Jesuits tried to destroy his reputation for exposing the order. Let me guarantee you this; if you can slog through his lengthy book “Jesuits” you will understand the problems in our church better than you ever have. PF will no longer seem enigmatic. Marxism, Inculturation, Liberation theology, disobedience to a series of popes are all detailed extensively. The man had no animus to the church. “Hostage to the Devil” is the most significant work I’ve been able to find regarding possession. Most people cannot finish reading the book because the hatred and ‘personality’ of Evil is too frightening to them. Fr.Martin is also good at analyzing the characteristics of the popes(JXXIII thru JPII). And he is good on communism and Freemasonry, both declared enemies of the church. Antonio Gramsci’s plot to undermine the church by polluting her message with Marxism is well detailed by Fr. Martin. Having only his printed works to judge him by, I am skeptical of those who attack him without sufficient proof.

  1. Maybe the worst thing about Ravasi’s statement is that he denigrates faithful Catholics in order to curry favor with the Masons – calling them “integralists” given to “hostility, insults and prejudices.” Reminds me of Pope Francis pulling apart the hands of the altar boy who was praying — they have contempt for holiness.

    • The election of Pope Francis was greeted with choruses of approval by Grand Lodges in Italy (the day after) South America and Asia.

    • Probably not –

      Dialogue is part of how the Church today acts. Not only is this a manner of action; it is one that has a doctrinal basis in the teaching of Vatican II. How is the teaching of an Ecumenical Council, and of the Church following that Council, and of the Popes following that Council, to be anathematised ?

      How could the CC possibly claim, with a straight face, to be infallible in her teaching on faith and morals, if she anathematised dialogue ? For how does dialogue, and the encouragement of it as good, not involve both faith and morals ? The Church cannot unsay Vatican II without ripping without shredding her credibility even more than she has already.

      • Dear James M, please allow my bit of hyperbole, but really. From where I sit, “dialogue” means acres and acres of words, spoken and printed, with no convincing intended, and compromise always from us, tiptoeing around the feelings and sensibilities of every other religion and ideology. If an
        Ecumenical Council says that we should do this, fine I guess. What is forgotten is a simple proclamation of the Gospel, the preaching of Christ crucified, which is the only answer to the trainwreck of this fallen world.

        • I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence :). “Hyperbole” ? STM your description is accurate. As for how dialogue is in practice used – all too true. The remedy for that, I think, is not no dialogue, but, better dialogue.

          St Philip Neri, “the Second Apostle of Rome”, took an interest in others as they were, Catholic or not – he sought their conversions, and interested himself in them “just as [they were]”. He did not “objectify” them, as a lesser Catholic seeking their conversion might. ISTM that modern ecumenism is so far from objectifying non-Catholics, that it forgets what St Philip did not – that non-Catholics, like Catholics, urgently need what you mention: “the preaching of Christ”.

          I believe St Philip Neri shows by his life what thoroughly Catholic “dialogue” can be, and should be: a form of love of neighbour, sincere, humble, genuinely interested in others, joyful, pure, burning with zeal that they may come to know Christ, totally evangelical, totally Catholic, and on fire with love of Christ. Consideration for the views and feelings of others is, or should be, a form of courtesy and graciousness, and thus, of love for them. It is not the same thing at all as appeasement, or lack of zeal, lack of love, lack of conviction, or cowardice. St Philip was not trying to engage in “dialogue” – he did something better; he practiced it. And no-one can possibly claim he was not utterly Catholic.

          If a V2 document sounds sub-Catholic or woffly, I believe we can and should take it in the most Catholic sense possible. Documents of an Ecumenical Council, that are the work of Catholic bishops, and are approved by a Pope, and appealed by a succession of Catholic bishops and Popes, ought surely to be understood and acted on in the most Catholic way possible – regardless of the subjective intentions of those who composed the documents. Since they are supposed to be documents of the Catholic Church, they should be understood according to her mind – which did not have to wait until modern times to come into being.

  2. The Blessed Mother in an interior locution to Father Stefano Gobbi said that the “black beast” in the Book of Revelation referred to ecclesiastical freemasonry, already hidden in the highest levels of the Church. These masonic prelates have as their agenda the destruction of, and loss of faith in, the Holy Catholic Church.
    This was in 1998 that she said this.

    • It almost makes one question what the Church approves as legitimate locutions, since claiming no supernatural validity would further cloak their actions. Just some random thoughts related to the Church’s rejection of Fr Gobbi’s messages …

      [excuse me, must check on the cats; I hear the black helicopters out back]

    • The Church has spoken on this, countless times. I don’t need a Novus Ordo priest’s ‘interior locutions’ (approved or not, by the Novus Ordo hierarchy) to know what the [true] Church has taught about masonry and its goals.

    • There are two beasts in Revelation, most notably in chapter 13 – but no “black beast”. There are four coloured horses in Revelation 6, one of which is black. Not to be confused with the Four Living Creatures of Rev. 4.

      Beast 1 is the 666 people talk about so much
      Beast 2 is also referred to in Rev as “the false prophet”.

      *If* Fr Gobbi said Our Lady mentioned a “black beast* in Revelation, that raises a question about the authencticity of the locution, or, about his memory of it,

  3. “[T]heir ultimate purpose forces itself into view — namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced,
    and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their
    ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere

    Mere naturalism: who can say that it does not rule nearly all the societies of the world today?

  4. I am a cradle Catholic. I was a Freemason until I found out that the church forbids Catholic men from being in the fraternity. I left in obedience to the Magisterium.

    That being said I will state categorically that I know EVERYTHING that there is to know about freemasonry and there is NOTHING contained in it that is anti-Catholic or anti-Christian. Period.

    The bottom line is that the various Popes were wholly ignorant of the fraternity. Masons are NOT a secret society. They are a society with secrets, exactly like the Knights of Columbus. I was knighted in 1965 at the age of 18. So I know both fraternities from the inside out. The so called “secrets” can be found in any book store or library if you care to look. Handshakes, passwords, ceremonials have all been thoroughly exposed.

    Not interested in a flame war folks. Just fact.

      • I was in the York Rite. I was in the East in every concordant body. That mean that I was, for example, the Master of my lodge and so forth. I am amused by all the hate being expressed since I was also the Commander of the Knights Templar Commandery, the purely Christian part of the fraternity.

        • Thanks for the reply. You sure did initiate some combox activity. I for one, don’t know much about Freemasonry other than what the church teaches. I’m glad you left in obedience to the church. I would say, defending the Freemason is not being obedient to the church, the same church that is responsible to guiding souls away from evil, e.g., abortion, and toward heaven. Blessings

        • There is absolutely NOTHING Christian about freemasonry. The organization is also notorious for deceiving its very own members and reserving explicit luciferian elements for those beyond the 33rd degree.

          Even the Shriner in the following video freely ADMITS to it:

        • The knights Templar, are an evangelical sect, causing torture and death to Catholics in Mexico! You have proved the point of the evil agenda in these cults! Look into the knights in ‘Walid’ It is horrible what they are doing to Catholics!

          • That “knights templar” you speak of is the name misappropriated by a mexican drug cartel and is NOT part of any country’s branch of Freemasonry. Do some original research before you post again.

    • Same here Mike. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is against Christianity. I love how people think they know what something is because someone else told them so. Pathetic ignorant sheep following the herd . The Knights of Columbus took their ritual from the Masons and the only difference between the two is that Masons accept all men as their brothers no matter what religion they believe. As long as they believe in God. Masons are probably the kindest men you would ever come across and are so judged and persecuted for trying to do good works in the world.

      • Mike Crognale and James Woodbury Sr…just two more two-bit TL;DR sophists. Heaven forbid you actually read the material provided or linked to. American Masons are some of the most ignorant and lost people out there. There’s just no reaching you. Nothing in Freemasonry that is against Christianity? That is an outright lie.

        • Oh sorry LH. I didn’t know you were a freemason and could speak from experience about the Fraternity. So why don’t you tell us what is it that they do, from your own experience of course , that makes them so Evil. Take us for a walk in your shoes of vast personal knowledge of what they do. I would rather here first hand from someone on the inside with all your inside knowledge of the order than some internet article written by a hate monger with know lick of proof of what hate they spread.

          • My father was a master mason.My mother was a Catholic.I read all my fathers books and can say with competent authority the masons are a enemy of the Holy Catholic Church.

            You should be delighted to know my father breathed his last as I prayed to our Lady to have clemency and intercede for him who was not born in Catholicism as I was and to take into account he had been mislead as a boy.He died with an expression of great surprise on his face.I had to close his eyes after he died.
            I was his eldest son and graduated from a Catholic Seminary College after 4 years there.

            My father gained salvation at the very last minute…because I was there praying for him.Had he died in the manner the masons would have preferred he would be in Hell.

            the masons are evil.Compared to the real faith they are shown to be what they are…minions of the evil one…nothing more…nothing less.

          • So what you are saying is that your father was not Catholic and they were married anyway , without him converting to the church. That would make you the spawn of Evil itself. Kind of like the Devil mating in an Unholy Matrimony. The Laws of the Church are clear on this sort of Barbaric Lust for people who are Devil worshippers. You must be tormented by this knowledge of how you were conceived. Pray that you are forgiven for the acts of your parents. It’s your only hope.

          • Shucks. Two deleted comments. I was late to the party. And rehctawtop wasn’t impressed, either! Must’ve been bad.

            Masonry is bad. Americans seem to be genetically predisposed to not grasp this. But whatever. Glib indifference towards this fact, as expressed by Mike Crognale, reminds me of the glib indifference of most people towards Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary–which we see expressed in Novus Ordo Mass spectacles. I guess not everyone can grasp these things.

        • I’m confused. Is Masonry as its critics describe it, or not ? This is one reason I usually avoid threads that talk at length of Masonic conspiracies.

          • Simply observe how our Holy Mother, Our Lady of Good Success, refers to this secret sect, and you will have your answer. I will not do your homework for you. Again, the internet is filled with TL;DR people who cannot digest more than a paragraph. Look it up. If Christ’s Mother does not qualify as an authority for you, then I’m simply left asking if you’re even Catholic.

          • Catholics do not have to accept private revelations. We are free not to; for not doing so, is in no way a sin. One’s Catholic identity and membership of the CC *are in no way* dependent on accepting either (1) private revelations or (2) the factuality or supernaturality of messages alleged by the recipient to have been given in them.

            My source for the statement about messages: Pere A. Poulain, S.J., The Graces of Interior Prayer: A Treatise on Mystical Theology. It has a letter of commendation by St Pius X – who, being Pope, was well-placed to judge whether it was orthodox or not.

            That apparitions of Our Lady are judged worthy of belief does not:
            1) make them public revelation
            2) impose any obligation of belief in them
            3) guarantee as supernatural the alleged messages.

            It does impose an obligation not to trouble those who do accept them, once they have been approved – which is fair enough.

            Whether or not an alleged apparition be genuine, Our Lady has no teaching authority in the Church – that belongs to the bishops. The Saints in glory have no teaching authority, since unlike us they are members of the Church Triumphant, whereas we who are still in this life are members of the Church Militant here in earth.

            For these reasons, those alleged words of Our Lady are of no help in resolving my perplexity. Since the alleged message of Our Lady of Good Success is one of the causes of the perplexity, reading the alleged message is not going to resolve it.

          • “Catholics do not have to accept private revelations.” The typical convenient cop-out. I’ve no time to police this article’s com box. You and others remain willfully ignorant.

            But I assure you, the fires of hell are prepared for all who tear at God’s children, as well as those who help them.

            Go back to watching cable television.

    • I’m from a Masonic family, and I find your claim that Masonry isn’t Anti-Catholic or Anti-Christian to be an outright lie. Freemasonry doesn’t believe in the deity of Jesus Christ or the Trinity. I’ve read many books about Masonry written from various points of view, and the non and Anti-Christian, Anti-Catholic character of this sect is evident in their books and in books written against it. IMO, you’re a Mason who trolls websites like this one to deceive Catholics about the true nature of the Lodge.

      • Freemasonry doesn’t believe in anything, it lets believing up to its members in their own way. If you came from a Masonic family you should know that. There’s absolutely nothing ‘anti’ anything in Freemasonry.

        • You’re willfully lying. The history of Freemasonry shows it to be Anti-Christian and Anti-Catholic. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and many Protestant churches have condemned it upon studying what it actually teaches. They have all said Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches excommunicated known Freemasons, and many Protestant churches also forbid Masons from being members. So please take your lies elsewhere, we’re not ignorant about what Freemasonry is all about.

          • You say Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. That’s your view, so I’m not even debating that. I don’t agree, but it’s your view. I respect that.

            For Freemasonry to be ANTI Christian it would have to have an active position AGAINST Christianity. Nowhere you will find anything to support that. Nowhere. So stop saying that.

          • The link you provided refers to Alta Vendita, a document by the Carbonari, which is understood to be an offshoot of Freemasonry. Just because a rogue offshoot (with no relationship with regular Freemasonry) is anti-Christian does not make Freemasonry anti-Christian.

          • Your use of buzz-words such as ‘rogue’ is a non-starter.
            Does a masonic document exist which refutes the Alta Vendita and the Carbonari?

          • Why would there be a Masonic document to refute a rogue organization it doesn’t recognize or have ties with?

          • You’ve called me a liar twice because you don’t agree with what I say. You called me a liar twice because you have a very one sided, uninformed view on the topic. If that makes me a ‘liar’ I will wear it as a badge of honour.

          • I called you a liar because you are one. I disagree with you because you lie, like any Freemason who’s cornered by a Non-FM about his sect’s beliefs. I am one sided alright, but I and the Catholics on this site are not uninformed about this topic.. We have been educated by sermons, articles and books written by Ex-Masons, and authors of various religious backgrounds. The facts they expose about Freemasonry force us to be against it, and choose sides. And if you want to wear “liar” as a “badge of honor” be my guest. But it won’t be so honorable when God judges you on Judgement Day!

          • I’m not cornered, not in the slightest. What I have seen brought forward, here and elsewhere, is ‘proof’ from the same camp. John Salza keeps being brought up. His interpretations of Freemasonry are not facts, they are his interpretations or rather, misinterpretations.

            When it comes to religion and spirituality there is no need to choose sides. People are free to believe and practice how they see fit, as long as negatively affects anybody. Freemasonry does not affect anybody negatively. If you’ll leave it alone it will leave you alone. All this does not make me a liar. I’ll happily and honourably meet my maker when the time comes.

          • So Freemasonry has a Magisterium? A pope? A central figure who provides all the doctrines of the organization (including the secret ones) for the world to review and examine?

            Is there a Masonic catechism where nothing is left out?

            You’re getting subjective interpretations precisely because there are no truthful objective ones. Freemasonry is, by nature, purpose, and design, a secret society. Does it have more public, banal, and pedestrian excrescences? Yes. Of course.

            Are most of its members ignorant of the darker designs that have been at the heart of its higher echelons for centuries? No doubt.

            The argument that just because someone can’t prove that a secret exists within an organization (because, hey, IT’S A SECRET!) it doesn’t, therefore, exist, is patently absurd.

            The argument that those who leave the organization at a high level and expose its secrets can’t be trusted because they’ve left and ergo are biased is also absurd.

            You’ve constructed a scenario where nobody can ever prove their point against you. All evidence will be rebuffed as tainted, when evidence can be obtained at all.

            You might as well be a Scientologist, too. They’re also quite good at this kind of thing.

          • So you say aloud here that you have no doubt that most of the members of this society are ignorant of the “darker designs” that have been around for centuries. Yet, you also say that there should be no dialogue with these people.

            Seems to me Jesus talked to folks that he was not “supposed” to talk to.

            To say that there is some sort of intrinsic wrong with TALKING to another human being and his group just seems so closed minded and wrong.

          • I never said we shouldn’t talk to individual people. But that’s not the topic at hand. The topic is dialogue between the Catholic Church and Freemasonry as an organization.

          • I love when people bring up the “Jesus talked with those he wasn’t supposed to talk to” line. Why did Jesus talk to them? So he could sit and chat and learn from them and at the end of the day agree to disagree? Or was it so that he could give them a choice to turn away from what they were doing and sin no more? Ultimately, Jesus’ goal was to bring them to himself. Please point out the time when Jesus met with a sinner and did not ask that person to turn away from their sins.

          • There is no part of my discussion that says we should not BE who we are. Of course you share the Truth as best you perceive it. We are all sinners, though.

            Conversation and engagement does not mean you abandon your principles. I said he spoke with people. This article says there should be no conversation. I think that is a mistake. Some in our Church obviously think so as well.

          • You’re absolutely correct, there’s no doctrine, catechism or a central figure. That makes it ineligible to be a religion as so many people try to claim. Its a set of allegories and symbolism which Freemasons use to carve their own ashlar.

            You claim, yet can’t prove, Freemasonry is evil (because, hey, it’s secretive). It’s not me who’s absurd when I claim it’s not evil.

            When John Salza left Freemasonry he obviously did so because he didn’t agree with it, so by extension he’s biased, the same way I’m biased in favour and you’re biased against. That’s not absurd, that’s defending what we stand for.

          • I’m entering this debate to take the cloak and daggery away.

            There is a clear threat, yes. Last month a man was arrested who was planning to commit a mass shooting at a Milwaukee Masonic building because of misguided ideas about Freemasonry.

            Lodges get vandalized or burned down on a regular basis by people who think Freemasons are part of some evil conspiracy. We know this because the perpetrators are caught and admit to it, or graffiti is left behind claiming such.

            What do you care what you think some Freemasons think about the Catholic Church? I just came here to defend Freemasonry.

          • “Are most of its members ignorant of the darker designs that have been at
            the heart of its higher echelons for centuries? No doubt.”

            This one always cracks me up. Tell me, where are those higher echelons? In some volcano liar on a remote island? It’s always a biased outsider who claims there are terrible secrets hidden from the sheep in the lower ranks. Ugh. Yet when I dare to ask for proof I’m the Scientologist making absurd claims.

          • Basically, your reply is one of moral relativism. When you’re asked a question about your cult, you hem and haw, instead of giving a straight answer.
            John Salza isn’t the only ‘proof’ I have. I knew what Freemasonry was all about years before I even heard of him. The same goes for the other people commenting, too.
            Sorry, but God requires us to choose sides. There is good and evil, and God tells us throughout the Bible to choose good. Freemasonry is a false religion that draws men away from faith in Christ, so it’s not good. If you say Freemasonry is good, you’re a liar, and I can guarantee when the time comes, you’re meeting with your maker won’t be a happy one.

          • I have not been asked one question, nor do I hem and haw. Ask me a question and I’ll give you a straight answer.

            Freemasonry is not a cult as it does not meet the criteria of a cult.

            Yes there is good and evil and yes, we need to pick a side but we’re on the same side here. Freemasonry is not a religion because, just like the cult reference, it does not meet the criteria of a religion. It also does not draw men away from faith in Christ as Freemasonry is not a replacement of religion. It is not up to you to decide if I’m a liar when I say Freemasonry is good, I’ll let my maker make that distinction.

          • If I may interject, I think the two sides are talking past each other here, and I think neither side is getting to the root of the problem. The very proposition you wrote:

            “When it comes to religion and spirituality there is no need to choose sides. People are free to believe and practice how they see fit, as long as negatively affects anybody.”

            Is commonplace in our society today, and not even most Catholics would blink at it. However, this proposition has in fact, been formally condemned by the Church. (Pius IX, Syllabus of errors, #15, #78 and #79)

            Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a beautiful letter accompanying the CDF’s Declatation on Freemasonry, explaining why the two societies are incompatible, but I don’t remember where on the internet it is. Instead, I’ll just quote EWTN:

            “Some have tried to say that American Masonry is different from European Masonry, which has a history of plotting against the government and the Church. The basic problem with all Masonry, however, is that it is a society which fosters a religious- philosophical attitude of indifference to religious truth, even substituting its own naturalistic dogma and rituals for those of Christianity. Such indifference is incompatible with belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. We may not “play-act” in the lodge of the Great Architect on Thursday night, then worship “in spirit and in truth” on Sunday morning at the altar of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the unique Lord and Redeemer of the Universe, the Word-made-flesh who reveals the Father, and who together with the Father sends the Holy Spirit. The Creed and the Masonic oath are irreconcilable!”

            Again, we are so used to putting our personal religious beliefs to the side in order to make peace with our neighbors, it is so codified in the laws and schools of most first-world countries, that we don’t understand why we can’t do it once again for fellowship in the lodge. But the Church wisely understands this schizophrenic attitude towards our relationships as folly, and in fact encourages us to integrate our beliefs into all parts of our lives.

            So it’s not just conspiracy theories and stuff that make Freemasonry repulsive. It is the very underlying philosophical assumptions that make it possible in the first place that are condemned.

          • Freemasonry is in no way indifferent to religious truth, it is Henoteistic in nature. I think it’s important in this day and age that we recognize each others faiths and support others in practicing their faith. Going to Lodge and going to Church are two different activities that should not be compared with each other. When I surround myself with men of different creed I gain knowledge that make me a better person, to discount this as schizophrenic folly is highly inappropriate.

          • No, we should not “support others in practicing their faith” insofar as any faith is contrary to the truth. To withhold or suppress the truth is wrong and uncharitable. God has definitively revealed there are no other gods but Him. If you believe Him, then acknowledging other gods, even the mere possibility of other gods, is disobedient to Him. Christianity and Henoteism are logically incompatible, and attempting to hold both requires either severe cognitive dissonance, or secret malice towards one or the other.

            Lodge and Church can and should be compared insofar as the Lodge is, as you say, “in no way indifferent to religious truth” and as both make specific comparable theological claims. If fellowship in any society, including the Lodge, requires disobedience to baptismal promises, then a Christian cannot have any part of it. Accepting Masonic teaching means (in practice if not also in principle) denial of a basic tenet of the Christian faith, and thus a good Christian cannot be a Mason. Do you understand?

          • The one thing I don’t have a clue about why this Freemasonry bashing is going on. Sure, you can say it’s incompatible, you can dislike it as much as you want, I don’t care.

            Freemasonry leaves religion up to its members and in so far Freemasonry believes nothing and everything.

          • The ‘leaving religion up to it members’ is a lie. At the top, it’s Luciferian. And how can an organization TRULY believe nothing AND everything? That is situation ethics; which is untrue, evil and expedient.
            How can a sane person hold opposing thoughts and think both are true?
            That is the mark of confusion and disordered thinking.

          • What’s up with the judgement? I’ll let the judging up to my maker. Meanwhile I’m trying to explain how it works, Freemasonry leaves religion up to its members and Lucifarian is not part of it. Not at the top, not anywhere. It believes everything because it’s henoteistic, it believes nothing because Freemasonry doesn’t have a dogma.

    • Oh so we have masonic infiltrators here? or simply flame-throwing juvenile delinquents bored with their homework?
      Freemasonry is dedicated to the destruction of the Catholic Church.
      How about the encyclical Humanum Genus.

      From Humanum Genus
      6. For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right, to be pernicious no Less to Christiandom than to the State; and it forbade any one to enter the society, under the penalties which the Church is wont to inflict upon exceptionally guilty persons. The sectaries, indignant at this, thinking to elude or to weaken the force of these decrees, partly by contempt of them, and partly by calumny, accused the sovereign Pontiffs who had passed them either of exceeding the bounds of moderation in their decrees or of decreeing what was not just. This was the manner in which they endeavoured to elude the authority and the weight of the apostolic constitutions of Clement XII and Benedict XIV, as well as of Pius VII and Pius IX.(10) Yet, in the very society itself, there were to be found men who unwillingly acknowledged that the Roman Pontiffs had acted within their right, according to the Catholic doctrine and discipline. The Pontiffs received the same assent, and in strong terms, from many princes and heads of governments, who made it their business either to delate the masonic society to the apostolic see, or of their own accord by special enactments to brand it as pernicious, as, for example, in Holland, Austria, Switzerland, Spain, Bavaria, Savoy, and other parts of Italy.
      [and so much more there!]

      • Not sure where you get the notion from that Freemasonry is out to destruct the Catholic Church. Freemasonry is not out to destruct anything.

          • But you said you didn’t know where the notion comes from. It obviously comes from many sources. Anyway, thanks for the excellent and terse rebuttal! (Do they pay you?)

          • Obviously it comes from many sources? Point me to a few credible sources then. Nothing I have seen brought forward here is making a strong case. Until then I have no idea where that notion comes from. And no, I’m not being paid.

          • The comments here have already pointed you to many sources. If you don’t find them credible, so be it. I don’t know what kind of Catholic doesn’t find the Papal statements here credible, but maybe you’re not Catholic. (Actually, to evaluate their credibility, you’d have to read them.)

          • Because it bothers me when Freemasonry is unfairly bashed. Be against it, say it’s incompatible, I don’t mind, that’s your right. But don’t say it’s anti-Christian, because it’s not.

          • Sorry, but many people have already said it, with overwhelming evidence. Certainty in the face of countervailing evidence is comforting but it’s also cowardly, not to say lazy. I see a truckload of humble pie in your future. If you ARE Catholic, you should have more respect for what Popes have said on this matter… Ok, I’m done beating this truly dead horse.

          • Overwhelming evidence from the same camp. Just by saying it often enough doesn’t make it true. Bring on the humble pie, I will not eat my words.

          • Between what you say and what several Popes have said, even the idea of a choice is absurd. You’re already covered in several banana cream pies.

    • You did the right thing but in your heart you don’t believe it or accept it. Surely unintentional ignorance is not sinful but willful ignorance is another matter entirely. In charity please allow me to provide you probably the single best source of Freemasonry info on the net. Please check out and his direct link on Masonry. He knows whereof he speaks. He was a 32nd Degree Mason which the average member only hears about let alone reaches. The direct link on point is:
      Take care

    • You obviously ignore Albert Pike’s Morals and Dogma, as well as the various Popes who have strongly denounced this devilish sect. And you are either a liar (which is part of Freemasonry), or your faith is so poor that you cannot detect the lies. All you need to do is read the encyclicals on Freemasonry which show the lies.

    • Yep, and I generally trust professedly former lodge members who in deference to bygone Popes discontinue their Masonry, but declare those Pope’s “wholly ignorant” of the craft and persist in its defense.

  5. You were probably Scottish rite (that is, the English-descended Masons). Continental Freemasonry was indeed massively anti-Catholic and was an ideology into itself.

    In the US, it was different and was basically a fraternal order that prosperous and respectable Protestants joined.

  6. Isn’t it past time for “dialogue” with Devil worshippers? I suggest the pope pay a visit to Salem, MA, for the get-together. I know how Francis likes to meet people of differing POVs on neutral ground, like Havana.

  7. What amazes me is that anyone can post anything in a com box and we are expected to believe that the person who made the statement is who they say they are and the information given is the truth. Not all is as it’s seems to be.

  8. As I mentioned in the comment I left on FB… Dialogue with protestants, masons and other heretics is a COMPLETE WASTE of time since the goal isn’t to affect their conversion to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith. I’ve never understood why the Church would want to waste time and resources just to establish a “mutual understanding” when the sole purpose and mission of the Church Militant is to draw ALL souls to Christ. I get so sick and tired of certain prelates who will stop at nothing to sell the unsuspecting faithful on the idea of a “one world” utopia. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that we’re living through the chastisement.

  9. For all those in doubt or darkness about the Masons, please check out and his direct link to “Freemasonry”. He is an attorney, Catholic Apologist and a former 32nd Degree Mason. He knows what he is talking about from EXPERIENCE which the average Mason, let alone Catholic, only hears about. Best source of Masonry info on the net. No conjecture. Just facts. Highly recommended. As to the Vatican speaking with them? Given PF history the only question should be….Why did it take him so long. He has spoken with all the other heretical groups so he is just saving one of the worst for now.

    • Former Mason? Sometimes I wonder. Masons take blood oaths to not reveal the secrets of the Lodge. That means his head is potentially on a platter; but he’s still talking….
      Ask Roberto Calvi whether the blood oaths are serious or not. Read Michael Hoffman’s work on masonry. Read The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled by Cdl. José Caro Rodriguez of Chile. There is plenty of information out there about masonry. The Lodge killed Joe Smith (founder of the Mormon sect) because he used masonry’s rituals and called them Mormon rituals. You can’t give the secrets away and not pay a price.

      • Robert Calvi?…as in Mafia gangster. Salza is hiding in plain sight. We are engaged in a “spiritual” battle. I like his chances given his work and protectors versus the enemy.

        • I think you’re missing my point. If Salza were really revealing secrets of the Lodge, he’d be discredited, demonized, mysteriously lose his ability to make a living, and/or dead. So, if he’s revealing anything about the Lodge, AND getting away with it, one must ask what benefit is it to the Lodge at this point? Why let him get away with it? Was Salza asked/told to participate in a ‘reveal’ at this time? And/or is the ‘traditional’ Catholic movement so fractured, and therefore a non-threat to the Lodge’s power in the Vatican that the Lodge doesn’t care whether Salza talks or not? Just questions that a rational person might consider.

          About Robert Calvia – dubbed by the press, “God’s banker”.

          Roberto Calvi (13 April 1920 – 17 June 1982) was an Italian banker dubbed “God’s Banker” (Italian: Banchiere di Dio) by the press because of his close association with the Holy See. A native of Milan, Calvi was Chairman of Banco Ambrosiano, which collapsed in one of modern Italy’s biggest political scandals. His death in London in June 1982 is a source of enduring controversy and was ruled a murder after two coroner’s inquests and an independent investigation. In Rome, in June 2007, five people were acquitted of the murder.

          Claims have been made that factors in Calvi’s death were the Vatican Bank, Banco Ambrosiano’s main shareholder; the Mafia, which may have used Banco Ambrosiano for money laundering; and the Propaganda Due or P2 clandestine Masonic Lodge.

          • Calvi was mob but you are leaving out a key player named Michele Sidona ie…Franklin National Bank, New York. Both were Mafia connected and they took down both Ambrosiano and Franklin.

  10. Our Lady of Good Success warned of masonic influence before the cult even began. Even if all the papal warnings are wrong, hers wouldn’t be.

  11. Oh boy, Mr. Skojec, now you’re attracting Masonic apologists.

    Everyone is capable of conversion. Total and complete conversion. That being said, I would still be extremely hard-pressed to ever trust the word of anyone who has been associated with Freemasonry. It does seem that low level American Masons are less aware of what their confreres in other parts of the world are exposed to, or maybe the indoctrination is just more subtle.

    As an enrolled member of the Militia Immaculata: “Allow us to praise thee, O Sacred Virgin; Give us strength against thine enemies. O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee, and for those who do not have recourse to thee, most especially the Masons and all of those who have been recommended to thee.”

    [Because the Church has many enemies, “Masons” is not found in some pamphlets with this full Miraculous Medal prayer and is substituted often with “most especially the enemies of Holy Church.”]

  12. ‘Almost sixty years ago, “Padre Pio first met Father Luigi Villa, whom he entreated to devote his entire life to fight Ecclesiastical Freemasonry. Padre Pio told Father Villa that Our Lord had designs upon him and had chosen him to be educated and trained to fight Freemasonry within the Church. The Saint spelled out this task in three meetings with Father Villa, which took place in the last fifteen years of life of Padre Pio. At the close of the second meeting [second half of 1963], Padre Pio embraced Father Villa three times, saying to him: ‘Be brave, now…for the Church has already been invaded by Freemasonry!’ and then stated: ‘Freemasonry has already made it into the loafers (shoes) of the Pope!’ At the time, the reigning Pope was Paul VI.’

    Padre Pio and Chiesa Viva (.) com

    • Father Villa is awesome. Everyone should read his works, such as the exposes on JPII and Paul VI. Because of his tireless and courageous work to expose the masons in the Church, a list of known and suspected freemasons was published on the front page of L’osservatore Romano.

    • I’ve shaken peoples’ hands in all number of ways depending on how the hands just happen to come together. And I often do a slight bow or nod of the head which I have come into the habit of doing in my manhood. Sometimes for a lady – as it seemed Pope Francis did with Queen Elizabeth – I do grasp the four fingers as seems more proper from a gentleman (more or less, on my account) than a full-handed handclasp like I just bought/sold a car. What level of Mason does that make me? I have seen three generic ways bishops offer their hands: fingers upward anticipating a rare kiss of the ring, the opposite where their fingers are underneath to avoid a kiss, or in the middle prepared for a kiss or a regular handshake. Whether or not any or all of the people pictured are Masons, what I watched of this video is a bit of a stretch. Is there a handclasp that is strictly and absolutely non-Masonic? How do high fives or fist bumps fit in? Do I need to go to confession and be absolved and have a censured lift if I accidentally did one of the pictured handshakes? Honestly, do I need to watch the full video to see at the end how I am suppose to be shaking hands?

      • It gets a bit absurd, doesn’t it? It’s possible to read into it if you want, or not. Either way…decoding secret handshakes is the least of our worries. The ideas are out there in plain view.

        • The greatest fete of the Masons this past century has been their “disappearance” as if into myth. Now it’s pretty obvious that they are active and all over and since they have “disappeared” from notice it is as if whenever one talks of them he or she may as well be speaking of unicorns and leprechauns as well. Sometimes it’s not too difficult to see why some have gotten that impression…

          • Same with the Devil himself, to believe that he doesn’t exist and then marginalize those that do; it’s his greatest feat in our culture at large!

            I might add that Obama has played this card cunningly and with skill against those that oppose him in any manner; “demonize to marginalize”.

      • That is where paranoia gets one. This mental tic of seeing conspiracies everywhere and in anything one cares to name is one of the most obvious characteristics of people from the US. The real problem is that conspiracies are impossible to disprove – because the willingness to see a conspiracy, whether of Catholics, Jews, Masons, little green men, bankers, or reptilians from Arcturus, does not depend on evidence, but on the will to see a conspiracy. One would hope, after decades of the absurd paranoid nonsense of which the Church in the US has long been the target, that Catholics in the US would be free of this regrettable habit of mind. The real evil is that this habit of mind is ruinous to love of neighbour 🙁

  13. Sheer madness:

    You are the head of a family, how do you dialogue with:

    1) One who has broken into your house? [Church has been infiltrated.]

    2) The One who has broken into your house and is raping you daughters and sodomising your sons? [Cf. Church sexual abuse scandal – the infiltration was by men appearing orthodox but devoid of any morals.]

    3) The goal of the one who has broken into your house is to completely destroy your family and toward that goal, they will enslave you so that you also play a part in the destruction of your own family? [Cf. The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita.]

    • Really.

      You’re blaming the sex abuse crisis on the Masons? Honestly?

      I find this to be a stretch. And there is no enslaving going on. Wow this crowd over here is big on hyperbole.

      • The Church has entered into dialogue with Masons in particular – and why not ? Granted, there are all sorts of good reasons not to, such as Humanum Genus, and the 1983 notification from the S.C.D.F. Even if every thing laid at their door is true, that need not be a reason to enter into dialogue with them. To do so, does not imply either agreement with what is wrong in Masonry, or appeasement of Masonry. If the Church does not get to know people, including those whose doctrines and POVs she must reject, how can she love them in an *informed* way ? There is excellent precedent for such dialogue, in the example of Christ in particular. People are not “conversion-fodder” – they are always, irreducibly, human beings, and are to be respected as such, since their humanity is from God.

  14. My comment at:

    “The letter G figures prominently in Freemasonry. Masonry also places the letter G in the middle of its blazing star (a five-pointed Occult symbol). In the lower degrees the initiate is told that this letter stands for God. Later he is told it signifies Geometry. When he arrives at the higher degrees the G (or God) is revealed as the generative principle. Amazingly, Masonry’s leading writers make no effort to conceal this. In fact they are quick to justify this Kabbalistic concept.”
    And “the generative principle” means the higher the masonic degree, the more perverse will be the sexual acts for the initiation into those degrees, children regardless of sex not spared.
    The higher one goes up, the fuller revelation that the one worshipped is Lucifer.
    Freemasonry has now been infiltrated by the Illuminati and eventually a mason will be involved in human [children included] sacrifice.


  15. One gets the impression that if the devil himself were to invite a Vatican representative to a sit-down he would instantly accept. The result might be (in mafia imagery) that only one will leave the room alive (spiritually in this case) and chances are it wouldn’t be the guy from the Vatican.

  16. Dialogue with Masonic Brothers is jake but try and imagine a dialogue with world war two historical revisionists.

    That is unimaginable even though history is not doctrine (well, it is now, ever since Nostra Aetate)

  17. More signs of Freemasonry inside the Church. Recall how Pope Paul VI said that smoke of Satan has entered the Church. Recall how the Freemasons rejoiced that Bergoglio was now in Rome.

    The Grand
    Lodge of Argentina officially welcomed the election of Cardinal Jorge
    Bergoglio as the Pope of the Catholic Church and Sovereign of the
    Vatican. Argentinian Grand Master Angel Jorge Clavero considers that
    this appointment brought recognition to Argentine nation.

    Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Italy expressed his joy regarding
    the election of Pope Francis. Raffi stated that: “With the election of
    Pope Francis nothing will ever be the same again.”

    • Makes you wonder, how well they knew the man. His history in Argentina is suspect to say the least. The famous picture of Bergolio on the bus with his hand tucked into his coat speaks volumes. Very Napoleonic.

      • …how well ‘they knew the man’? Are you joking? The people who elected Bergoglio are mostly members of the Lodge, otherwise they wouldn’t have elected him. It’s really way past time to wake up and smell the stench.

  18. John Salza has extensively covered this issue. Any “dialog” with freemasonry is tantamount to having a dialog with satan. Period!

  19. Albert Pike explained in Morals & Dogma how the true nature of Freemasonry is kept a secret from Masons of lower degrees:

    “The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.”

  20. I have been a Catholic for more than 45 years.

    I have gone to Catholic school, Catholic college, and I teach in a Catholic school.

    I have never encountered a Mason. Ever. I have heard some people, like some in the comments here, act as though this is the WORST THING EVAR!!!…but I just don’t get it. It’s not some viral thing that is ruining the Church. It’s not the END OF THE WORLD!!! OMGOMGOMG…that so many here seem to be making it out to be.

    There are lots of different people in the world who come for so many differing backgrounds. Finding out WHO they are requires dialog. People come before ideology. Sure, there is a Truth, but having a CONVERSATION? There is nothing wrong with opening a conversation. My goodness. Relax much?

    • It’s nice of you to come here periodically and remind us that Catholics like you exist, are a product of catechesis and Catholic education, and have even been entrusted with the job of teaching our children.

      It’s motivating. It’s why we absolutely have to keep doing what we’re doing. The Church you believe in and the one that existed for 1962 years are not the same. I suspect that this is the reason you never seem to be able to identify the obvious problems, or to make important distinctions. It’s because you don’t believe the same things the Church has always believed. The problems we see aren’t problems to YOU, because you don’t believe what we do. You’re not a fellow traveler, even though we all self-identify as Catholic. I’m not even saying it’s your fault.

      The Church has developed a raging case of split personality disorder, and she’s off her meds.

      The idea that Catholics have to evangelize other Catholics is so foreign, so hard to process, it’s part of the reason we’ve done such a poor job of it. It’s time we got better at it. I suspect the Church doesn’t have long before it really and substantially splits along the exact fault line you so aptly illustrate.

      • So then you’re saying that the Freemason problem is an actual problem that requires our attention more than most others.


        See, you’re using what I said to push your agenda, and that’s fine, it’s your site. But honestly…do you REALLY believe the Freemasons are an actual threat to the Church?

        • Do I strike you as a cynical, insincere man? Do you think I’m getting rich writing articles about obscure topics like the Freemasonic threat to the Church?

          Yes. Of course I believe it. Because I:

          a) am able to read the body of Church teaching on the topic
          b) am obedient to the authentic Magisterium of the Church
          c) have seen zero historical evidence that the threat so urgently warned against has past
          d) have seen substantial contemporary evidence that the threat STATED by Freemasons themselves in the 19th century has been executed
          e) have absolute moral certitude that the anthropocentric, humanist direction the Church has taken (which is in perfect accord with Freemasonic aims and beliefs) during this same period of time is decimating the Catholic Faith and depriving God of due worship and adoration, which will incur His inexorable wrath in time

          The Permanent Instruction on the Alta Vendita made the long, deceptive game being played very, very clear:

          “The Pope, whoever he may be, will never come to the secret societies. It is for the secret societies to come to the Church… The work we have undertaken is not the work of a day, nor of a month, nor of a year. It may last many years, a century perhaps, but in our ranks the soldier dies and the fight continues… ”

          They made plans to work for generations if need be. And they knew that the work would require such subtlety that they would have to go undetected, working their way into the confidence of the clergy until the Church wanted to…wait for it!…have DIALOGUE with them:

          “Never speak in their presence a word of impiety or impurity. Maxima debetur puero reverentia. Never forget these words of the poet for they will preserve you from licenses which it is absolutely essential to guard against for the good of the cause. In order to reap profit at the home of each family, in order to give yourself the right of asylum at the domestic hearth, you ought to present yourself with all the appearance of a man grave and moral. Once your reputation is established in the colleges…and in the seminaries – once you shall have captivated the confidence of professors and students, act so that those who are engaged in the ecclesiastic state should love to seek your conversation…then little by little you will bring your disciples to the degree of cooking desired. ”

          They knew that it would take long, diligent work, but their goal was nothing less than the changing of the world, by means of the infiltration of the Universal Church. They knew that by their forces establishing a solid reputation within the hierarchy, they could

          “open the way for our doctrines to pass to the bosoms of the young clergy, and go even to the depths of convents. In a few years the young clergy will have, by force of events, invaded all the functions. They will govern, administer, and judge. They will form the council of the Sovereign. They will be called upon to choose the Pontiff who will reign; and that Pontiff, like the greater part of his contemporaries, will be necessarily imbued with the…humanitarian principles which we are about to put into circulation… Let the clergy march under your banner in the belief always that they march under the banner of the Apostolic Keys. You wish to cause the last vestige of tyranny and of oppression to disappear? Lay your nets like Simon Barjona. Lay them in the depths of sacristies, seminaries, and convents, rather than in the depth of the sea… You will bring yourselves as friends around the Apostolic Chair. You will have fished up a Revolution in Tiara and Cope, marching with Cross and banner – a Revolution which needs only to be spurred on a little to put the four corners of the world on fire.”

          And they knew they would succeed:

          “That of the secret societies will be accomplished for the most simple of reasons, because it is based on the passions of man. Let us not be discouraged then by a check, a reverse, or a defeat. Let us prepare our arms in the silence of our lodges, dress our batteries, flatter all passions most evil and most generous, and all lead us to think that our plans will succeed one day above even our most improbable calculations.”

          Wake up. Read something that doesn’t just confirm your biases. Take the red pill.

          Or don’t. I hear the steak in hell is delicious.

          • I am awake. I read all the time. Im at this tiny little site. I’m engaging with you guys.

            I am reading things all the time that challenge me greatly. I honestly try to get inside the mind of those who have very disparate takes than I do. So…keep your wake up calls. Thanks.

            This is just crazy talk, though. So much conspiracy! So much drama! I will read more about this, of course, but to me its much ado about not much at all.

            I have faith in Love personified. It seems there is a lot of fear in that post you just threw up (cut and pasted) there.

            Fear is useless, what is needed is faith.

          • Ah yes. So tiny. So insignificant. Just a site the size of a mustard seed.

            Salvation history is rife with conspiracy and drama. It was a by a conspiracy, after all, that Jesus was betrayed. And I’d call His passion and death pretty dramatic.

            The greatest things about actual conspiracies, of course, is that they always appear incredulous until they accomplish their aims – then suddenly, everyone is surprised! Those who go looking for conspiracies end up looking, more often than not, like loons, because a conspiracy well-designed is a conspiracy well-disguised.

            But it was Pope Leo and his predecessors, not me, who warned against this “dark conspiracy” — Leo’s words, not mine.

            It was they who saw the absolute urgency of fighting this program of destruction. Not destruction by grand gestures such as the burning of Churches or the massacre of Christian children, but by completely re-orienting the Catholic religion to worship man, and not God.

            “According to the almost unanimous opinion of believers and unbelievers alike, all things on earth should be related to man as their center and crown.” – Gaudium et Spes #12

            The mission has been accomplished, whether you believe there was a conspiracy or not. Belief in the Real Presence is decimated. Mass attendance is decimated. Catholic adherence to fundamental moral principles — like the grave, intrinsic immorality of contraception — is decimated.

            Catholicism claims over 1.2 billion adherents in the world. But if you were able to remove all those who don’t go to Mass, don’t believe in the Eucharist, don’t believe in sin, support abortion, support gay “marriage,” or engage in practices (like being involved in Freemasonry) that are objectively, mortally sinful – with no intention of repentance, that number would, I’m confident, drop to less than 100 million.

            90% efficacy against the largest, oldest, and most significant Christian denomination in the world — and the only one that’s actually true — is pretty damned impressive for a non-existent conspiracy.

          • What should be the unanimous opinion of believers and unbelievers alike, is that all things on earth should be related to Jesus Christ as their center and crown.

            There. Fixed it for you V2.

          • Well, the Vatican sees no prob with dialogue, and I do not either.

            I will keep trying to see things as you do, though.

          • What you may be missing, Rich, is that there has to be a goal in dialogue. What would be the goal here? The Catholic Church was mandated by Jesus to teach all nations everything He had taught the Apostles. So that would be our goal. What would be the Masonic goal?

          • And if by ‘better person’ you mean that I can decide (because I want to be a ‘better person’) that you are in my way (toward my goal of being a ‘better person’) then it’s okay to remove you, by whatever means necessary.

      • “The Church has developed a raging case of split
        personality disorder, and she’s off her meds.”

        Love is in the air, the Lord and his Pyscho Wife are really producing the winners today. Her doctors since 1960’s have her on a high dose of sleepers, her husband is in zombieland with grief, the children are running wild in the streets. Woe, woe, woe, our Mother, poor thing, finally had a break down, but at least mom & pop can still rely on me to keep the family going, when mother heard of the commotion, she breathed out a faint, Peter.

        **** Peter and the Church have a special relationship, she speaks through Peter in union with the heart and wisdom of her Lord who cannot be decieved or decieve. Peter cannot impose his will against the will of the Lord for the Church. Peter can do alot of damage by example and careless guiding of the flock but if he turns out to be Judas by binding the flock to sin then of course the Church will not follow the man of sin. In justice, the shepherds who have guide the sheep for the last 50 years will be weighed with those who opposed them and their merit or lack of it to rise above them. If we are going to rise above any shepherd, since justice is fair for all, we really need to make sure we have the Church behind us to do so, the Church will have to rule who is in the right and wrong. Its easy if the Shepherd is clearly out of line otherwise we don’t want to be on the wrong end of the conflict.

    • Your funny, I’ve never encountered a mason ever. Masons are not some invisible elusive entity, just men walking around like everybody else. It’s what is inside certain men that is evil, or good. Some knowing only what is meant to know. Others privy to secrets!

  21. I’m a 32nd degree Mason and am delighted to be able to tell you that there is nothing at all to worry about. The masonic critics have frightened themselves with an imaginary bogey. Freemasonry is a product of the European Enlightenment, very much of the same spirit as those other exemplars of Enlightenment thinking, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. If you look at some of the old papal criticisms of Freemasonry, you see that the Popes condemn the fraternity for promoting things like separation of church and state, freedom of worship and conscience, and public education. Don’t forget, Pope Leo XIII is also the Pope who condemned “Americanism” for the same reasons. Now, it may well be that revolutionary and anti-clerical elements in central European and Latin countries have used masonic lodges at various times as cloaks for their activities; and Grand Orient masonry in France is explicitly non-theistic. But “Anglo-Saxon” Freemasonry–that of the British Isles and the United States–is a very different enterprise altogether, no different than a college fraternity (see Jasper Ridley’s excellent book, The Freemasons for an objective history). Freemasonry actually FORBIDS discussion of politics and religion in the lodge. It is NOT a “secret society” –the first masonic exposes were published within a year of the founding of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717 (and anyone reading this post can find out every masonic “secret” there is by doing an hour’s web-browsing). There’s a reason many members who join out of curiosity drift away–there are no secrets, and the masons are not up to anything exciting! Certainly nothing nefarious. With all the evils to worry about in this fallen world it’s a shame anyone wastes time worrying about a tee-totaling, mild-mannered social club for bored middle-aged men.

    • The Church forbids this “social club” so learn golf and don’t play with fire. If one insists on playing with matches the Church cannot help you if you torch yourself.

        • I’d rather be an alarmist who obeys Holy Mother Church then a rational who overcomes the Church’s roadblocks to venture into forbidden territory with a force a heartbeat away from pouncing on its prey.

          • Um…it IS the Church herself who is doing the dialogue. I am not presuming to DO anything. I would NOT want to be an alarmist. Jesus said CONSTANTLY that fear is useless, and what is needed is faith.

            Man, this is a tight crowd.

          • “Jesus said CONSTANTLY that fear is useless, and
            what is needed is faith.”

            Faith will obey Jesus, in case faith fails his followers he scares the hell out of them. Those who he cannot save through faith or fear, he sadly must let go for free will can override faith, fear and love to pursue its own ends.

            “Um…it IS the Church herself who is doing the dialogue.”

            Dialogue, she does do that alot these days, changing her position, I wouldn’t waste time on presuming she’ll come around to opening a close door , that could be a costly miscalculation.

    • Freemasonry doesn’t permit discussion of God in the Lodge buildings because it can’t bear to hear the name JESUS CHRIST. Nice try, Pansy.

    • “Popes condemn the fraternity for promoting things like separation of church and state, freedom of worship and conscience, and public education. Don’t forget, Pope Leo XIII is also the Pope who condemned “Americanism” ….”
      Ah, how I miss those Popes. They were Catholic and they were right. You sir, are steeped in error, though certainly not alone in it.

  22. John Salza wrote a very telling book called; “why Catholics cannot be Masons.” He ought to know first hand, he was in it and realized its Evil and got out. Masonry began in Europe I believe starting with the French Revolution in the 1700’s. The main goal of Masonry is to put Lucifer on the throne


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