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For Traditionalists, the Insults Will Continue Until Morale Improves

The standard complaint against traditionalists, that we are demanding and obnoxious, has surfaced yet again in the Catholic blogosphere. This time it comes to us courtesy of the site Unam, Sanctam, Catholicam (a blog which I appreciate and enjoy reading on occasion).

In his most recent post, however, Boniface (the author’s pseudonym) addresses the perceived problem of rude & obnoxious Trads and the diocesan priests whose lives they apparently make a living hell. Two specific priests are (anonymously) profiled: one who was in seminary when Summorum Pontificum was issued by Pope Benedict, the other a pastor who was already learning the Traditional Latin Mass in 2007 when Benedict released his landmark motu proprio.

We are told in the article that the first priest has completely given up offering the traditional Mass and the other is on the verge of giving up because:

…the people who attended the traditional Latin Mass were so mean-spirited, so hyper-critical, just so obnoxious, that he eventually stopped offering the traditional Mass altogether…(he) wants nothing to do with the Latin Mass community.

In addition, the second anonymous priest states that the traditional Latin Mass attendees:

…were very loath to volunteer for any parish events or attend any other parish functions. He (the priest) made an interesting observation, and I’m paraphrasing, but he said, “It’s like the Latin Mass is a ‘fix’, something they travel around chasing. Looking for anywhere they can get ‘their’ Mass and then move on.” He felt like they refused to put down roots in his parish; they were takers, not givers. They have given him nothing but headaches.

I will address the lack of charity that (some) traditionalists can exhibit later but first permit me this brief rant.

This particular post at Unam, Sanctam, Catholicam (as well as many of these reoccurring digs against “obnoxious Trads” one finds on social media and on the Internet) always reveal a much larger and more prevailing problem in the Church today: the continued lack of support for the traditional Latin Mass.

The first priest profiled in the article states that he offered the Latin Mass “semi-regularly” before giving it up completely. I’m not sure about your catechism, but mine instructs that Holy Mass is a weekly obligation, not a “semi-regular” obligation. I know of very few Latin Mass communities that have ever flourished with a once a month (or semi-regular) traditional Mass.

Statistically we know that anywhere from 75-85 per cent of self identifying Catholics skip Mass on Sundays. In other words, the vast majority of Novus Ordo attending Catholics will not even drive ten minutes to their geographic parish for anyone of the three, four, or five times when Mass is offered each week.

Now, take those same Catholics and ask them to drive an hour, or two, for Mass and see how many even bother to show up. Traditionalists are regularly expected to load up their five, six, seven (or more!) children and commute 2-3 hours (round trip) for a once a month Mass. The expectation is unrealistic and uncharitable. And yet many make that drive, only to be criticized for not putting down roots and becoming more active in a parish that isn’t their own.

In all charity, I would ask those priests who offer the Latin Mass and are frustrated with traditionalists to understand that families who travel (in some cases) from other dioceses and past numerous parishes to attend the Latin Mass typically cannot make that same drive more than once a week. It simply is not possible.

Additionally, of course many are “chasing” after traditional Masses; this has to be done when TLM’s are only offered one Sunday a month at 4:00PM (or later) or on a “semi-regular” basis. Providing a stable location for the Mass will natural produce…stability!

As to the generalized characterization held by some priests that most of these traditionalists are rude, I would suggest this: open up availability to the Mass to your own geographic community. Quit creating the self-fulfilling prophecy of low attendance and fringe attendees by only scheduling infrequent Masses and at inconvenient times.

If you are a priest who understands the immense grace received from a Mass received from God and organically developed (with minimal change) over 2,000 years, then offer it right in the middle of your Sunday Masses as it is done at diocesan parishes like St. Mary’s in Norwalk, Connecticut or Holy Ghost parish in Tiverton, Rhode Island.

Please let us see if the Novus Ordo attending Catholics at your parish embrace the traditional Catholic Mass. Then what you will have is neither neo-Catholic nor Traditionalist, but simply Catholic, and those who are rude and obnoxious will be identified as such because of their personal character flaws and not because of the Mass they attend.

That being said, of course some traditionalists need to demonstrate greater charity toward their pastors. All of us, regardless of rite or form, must do so. Patience, reassurance, gratitude, and most of all prayers are owed to our priests.

Here let’s again note, however, that a priest who offers a traditional Mass one Sunday a month two hours away does not necessarily fulfill the role of pastor for these souls; their bishop has largely already failed them by not supporting wider availability of the Latin Mass.

Where the traditional Sunday Mass is offered weekly, there are several best practices that can be employed to help increase support and foster growth. They are, in no particular order:

  • Form a small committee of faithful attendees who will brainstorm ways to further the traditional Mass without stepping on toes;
  • Designate one or two leaders who will be (exclusively) responsible for respectfully making requests and offering suggestions to your pastor;
  • With permission from the pastor, establish a presence within the parish for the tradional Mass. This can be done via an information table or booth to provide literature, offer pre-approved handouts, and capture email addresses for future updates.
  • Work with Father to establish a schola, schedule educational sessions on the traditional liturgy, and to train servers for the Mass.
  • Encourage Latin Mass attendees to pray for your pastor: rosary bouquets, novenas, and acts of penance can be offered for those priests who have taken on the (often unpopular) role of a tradition friendly priest.

All of the above suggestions presume that you are in an environment supportive of the traditional Mass.

Unfortunately, for traditionalists it seems that the insults will continue until morale improves. It is a cross to bear no doubt, but it can be done with grace and charity. It must be done with grace and charity.

And, in the meantime, maybe more of the clergy and laity can stop looking for stereotypes when they see traditional Catholics and begin to see a group of faithful desperate for community, stability, and a parish home.

[Photo credit: Rodrigo Guerra]

Originally published at Reprinted with permission.

241 thoughts on “For Traditionalists, the Insults Will Continue Until Morale Improves”

    • There has been one for a long time Thomas. As an example, I see sede vacantists as Traditionalist Catholics who hold to a different position than the other 98% of Traditionalists on a particular theological question about which theologians and canonists have been divided over the centuries. I believe that the SVs are wrong, but I do not cast them into the outer darkness as do many Traditionalists.

        • Well, there are different religious orders, aren’t there? To be a Traditional Catholic is to hold to the entire corpus of Holy Tradition, but there will always be different charisms within that.

          • I’m not talking about charisms. I’m talking about different beliefs about what the “entire corpus of holy Tradition” entails

          • Well, from right to left you’ve got your trads veering on sedevacantism, trads who don’t think Francis is an actual Pope, SSPX, FSSP and similar groups, trads who think the Novus Ordo is inferior but not invalid, Catholics who have issues with Pope Francis but think if the Novus Ordo jettisoned abuses it would be acceptable, Catholics who have issues with Pope Francis but no problem with the Novus Ordo, Catholics who think Pope Francis is fine but wish he’d be clearer, Catholics who think Pope Francis is awesome, Catholics who think Pope Francis is the best Pope since St. Peter, and those who think the “reforms” of Francis don’t go far enough.

            And of course you have those actually outside the Church: sedevacantists on the right and woman “priests” on the left

          • Well, that list covers a lot more than Traditionalists!

            Why would you think that SVs are outside the Church? I’m not one, but sedevacantism for me anyway is merely a theological opinion, not a denial of a dogma of the Faith.

          • Is it not a form of schism? I certainly believe God can allow bad Popes but I don’t think it’s possible for there to be no Pope at all. That seems to me to undermine the very idea of the papacy

          • There have been short periods when the “sede” was vacant – three years once in the Middle Ages. The trouble with sedevacantism is that as the decades go by, their thesis becomes more and more unlikely. But I don’t see why they are schismatics, no. They don’t reject the Papacy, they just don;t think there is one.

        • When the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered. We are in the greatest apostasy and crisis in Church history. It’s every man for himself. Total chaos and madness right now. If these days were not shortened even the elect would be deceived the Scripture says.

  1. The incessant personal attacks are grueling, but then, one must consider the source and remember that we all judge others by ourselves. If Jesus knows me, what do I care what clerics and others think and say? They can’t harm anyone, just ignore them.
    When I hear the clergy following the example of PF in insults rather than building up the brethren in Christ, I can only believe that they must be pitied.
    The devil is the accuser of the brethren and is well known for his desire to cause rancor and division even among Catholics. May God prevail to bring peace after a good house cleaning.

  2. As a priest, I’ll just say that the fathers quoted aren’t so far off, in my experience: when I’ve celebrated for the community, I often get critiqued about the rubrics, etc., etc.,….but what is most disillusioning is the scorn from some (*some, not all, but difficult to swallow nevertheless*) who lament that I’m ordained under the novus ordo, I didn’t have ‘real’ doctrinal or liturgical training as the SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, et. al. I’m not a *real* priest. But they will deign to attend my Missale Romanum masses.

    Sure, I just try and take it, but who can withstand – on the personal, human level – the constant snarking about being inferior?

    • Father, God bless you. I am afraid I have seen what you are describing. it’s very discouraging when you are making the TLM available for them and in my humble opinion they ought to just shut up. However…. I have known such Catholics and even been friends with them once upon a time, and this particular set of friends have vacated finally to the sedevacantists. I don’t think with these people you can ever quite get it right no matter what you do. And in that sense I think the Pope is right when he calls out (some) traditionalists on rigidity and lack of charity. I’ve seen it. All I can say is all of us should be praying for and supporting all our priests and be grateful for them. Who will bring us the Mass if they get so discouraged they give up? A kind word, a supporting comment from the heart is so necessary for our priests. Father Pablo I’ve added you to my Priest Prayer List. Again, God bless you.

      • In my experience, for what it’s worth, for every “uncharitable” traditionalist there are at least four “uncharitable” uber-progressive Novus Ordo Catholics who, for example, blanch at the thought of the tabernacle being returned to the center of the sanctuary, become physically ill at the thought of eliminating “extraordinary ministers” of Communion, and who become more rigid and immovable than even the most intransigent traditionalist at the idea of having the classical rite offered once a month in their parish, let alone weekly.

        Let’s not pretend that traditionalists are the only “rigid” ones here.

        • I am sure that is true. Fortunately I never encountered this in my years in various parishes. If I gave the impression that traditionalists are the only rigid ones I apologize. They certainly have no corner on stridency or bitterness. That is an equal opportunity employer,so to speak. So again I am sorry my comment raised your hackles. I was trying to offer some support to a discouraged priest not wound any Latin Mass supporters. I have been one myself for many many years during the long dry years of Paul VI and for a good number of years under JPII. When we finally got the Latin Mass our priest begged us from the pulpit to dial back the critical attitudes and vitriol. So apparently even back then this “element” existed. Anyway God bless you and your passion for tradition.

        • I’ve seen charity among Traditional Catholics and some NO conservative Catholics than I have among liberal NO Catholics. They pontificate more on the Mass than the Pope! And if you even make a suggestion re more reverence in the Mass, they’ll chop your head off! I think it was Pope St. Plus X who said that liberal Catholics are the worst enemies of the Church. How true.

        • So what? If there are sins among traditionalists, are priests *not* supposed to observe this fact until all *other* people are immaculate? Where are meekness and mildness in all of this? Two priests observed some sinful behavior among traditionalists, or they claim that they observed it. What does *any* of this have to do with anyone *else’s* sins?

          • I am simply observing that very few priests I have encountered take the time to publicly criticize the sort of Catholics who meet the description above. Whereas traditionalists appear to time and again be fair game for public criticism.

            It’s a double standard that should be corrected, if only for the sake of intellectual honesty.

          • But this time it’s coming from priests who apparently tried their honest level best to be supportive of traditionalists. Also, this time the purpose was to encourage traditionalists to pursue their ends by constructive means. It was a constructive criticism.

            Traditionalists routinely fill comboxes complaining about the people you describe. It’s only fair to burst the echo chamber and remind traditionalists that even people who are (or were) well-disposed to them see faults among traditionalists.

          • So what? Don’t you know anything about martyrdom and suffering?

            Too many of my fellow trads seem especially suited to bellyaching and caterwauling at the treatment they suffer at the hands of others. I’ve been looking for signs in the trad community of charity, sacrifice, humility, and patience – all necessary elements in a willingness to teach others.

            For a group of people who seemingly qualify as caretakers of the sacred traditions of the Church, why do those qualities and other essentials seem to have disappeared from among many of our trad colleagues.

            This is a solvable problem, but we will NEVER turn things around by advancing arguments like Steve put forth here. I respect him and his work immensely, but the way to respond to legitimate criticism is to take responsibility for correcting the problems – NOT turning it around and placing responsibility on others.

            The problem is we have failed to convince conservatives and, yes, they can be obtuse and worse, with comparable terrible attitudes as are attributed to our community.

            Yet, the truth remains that the stalemate will remain until one side makes a dramatic move to bring about a breakthrough. This will not happen by insisting the other guy remove the mite from his eye first.

            Sorry! We may hold the moral, historical, theological, and traditional high ground, but since when have saints in that position been rewarded with victory under the terms they desire or, in this case, demand?

          • Don’t you know anything about intellectual honesty?

            At least you admit trads will be doing the heavy lifting.

          • Ohhhh, I don’t think they called it “sinful.” I think they called it “obnoxious.” There is a difference and the difference reflects on the priests and not the traditionalists.

          • Engaging in obnoxious behavior, when done intentionally, is a sin. These priests were saying that these people were being an unnecessary burden in an unacceptable way. We are called to be meek and mild and kind. All of the behavior listed consisted of real failings that a priest is right to call out. Obnoxious behavior is a sin against that. How many times does St. Paul tell us to be kind.

    • Fr. Pablo,
      First, many thanks for your sacrifice in offering the TLM- I don’t know about your particular circumstances, but I know that all too often a diocesan priest or even one in a non-traditional order sacrifices much in order to offer the traditional mass.

      There are certainly a few traditionalists who can be obnoxious when it comes to interacting with priests. What can make it tougher to deal with is that these are loudmouths who actually care about the mass and the Church (to the point that it overwhelms prudence and humility). They ultimately mistrust your training (or training that was like yours) because in the past (and present) it has been used against them and their family to justify abuses and erroneous teaching. As they say in management- it’s not your fault, but it is your problem.

      My humble advice would be to point out that given your “novus ordo” education you are better able to recognize the presuppositions that underlie some of the modernist errors. Throw in a relevant quote from Aquinas and usually even the most ardent of traditionalists will be calmed down. As long as they trust you (even if they don’t trust your training) then you should be able to get through to them.

      As far as the constant snarking is concerned- if they are constantly snarking about your they are probably snarking about everyone else and most people will ignore them. Besides, human respect is vastly overated. Try a few homilies about humility (especially the humility of Mary) and the sins of gossip/slander/ and especially detraction.

      I’ll put you in our family prayers and again, thank you for your dedication and generosity.

    • I am sorry for these rude comments that are hurled at you. And God bless you for persevering for the sake of the others as well. But…………
      Do not take it Father, not just for your sake, but for theirs. Obviously, these parishioners are lacking in need of virtue, of understanding of their own primitive pious selfishness, or whatever the case may be.
      Have they forgotten, that you are their priest and deserve great respect, regardless of their personal

      I have had qualms about my former Novus Ordo parish, but never would I even DARE to speak to a priest about how he offers the Mass…. I have suggested however, St. Michael the Archangel prayer after Mass, along with another parishioner, but only as a request, which he fully agreed upon.
      And yes, I have sat through these Masses, with the horrible music, and “rush rush” Liturgy, goodness, no time to make a proper Confession or Lord Have Mercy is ever given. But, I would never dare to bring this to this dear priest’s attention and neither should those under your great spiritual care, who cause you to lament for absolutely no sound reason.

      If you were my son, the priest, and were asking my opinion, I would tell you, to sit down with them, calmly and tell me them how this hurts you and your priesthood with these comments. And that you understand their concerns with the so many changes of the Church, ( assuming they are older), and that you gladly want to provide the Sacramental Church to them, and so forth and so on. And then that is to be the end of the discussion on this matter. Protect your priesthood from these snares.

  3. I also saw that post at USC, and I don’t get it, and/or I can’t see it.
    Our ‘new’ FSSP parish (August ’16) has people falling all over themselves trying to help. We have work/cleaning crews, flowers brought in by the congregation, raising money to fix the -100 yo bell mount, and re-installation of the communion rail. Every Sunday after Mass there is a coffee & pastry social, all run by volunteers and donations; some of these people have become good friends of mine.
    I suppose there are some curmudgeons around, but so far they’ve eluded me.

  4. The NO crowd has stood by over the past fifty years and not uttered a peep as the leftists revised every last detail of Catholic worship, and the NO clergy will not tolerate ANY resistance to their program (nor will “conservative” Catholics). I find myself having to check my crankiness on a regular basis.

  5. I attend both a Traditional parish where TLM and the the NO Mass (w Communion rail) are offered, as well as a NO only/typical Vatican II parish. Both parishes have terrific Pastors.

    I recall two occasions where the TLM Pastor had to comment in the weekly bulletin that those attending the TLM needed to monitor their ‘spiritual pride’ based upon uncharitable comments made to NO attendees. At the NO only parish I see people on occasion chatting during service, men wearing hats, and always folks dressed in shorts/flip flops.

    With Church attendance so low, I think we should just be charitable to our fellow Catholics and do our best to lead by example; ie the meekness to neither be angry nor docile.

    • I would really love to know what these “uncharitable” comments consisted of. “Put some clothes on.” “Stop talking out loud.” “No drinking pop during Mass.”
      “You can’t push your kid around the Church in a stroller during Mass.” “You can’t sit in the front of the Church with your spouse in the back and allow your preschoolers to
      run up and down the aisle during the Mass.” “No standing up with your back to the tabernacle and conversing with the people two rows behind you.”
      “It’s impolite to recline in the pew with both of your arms extended.” “Your kid is about to set themselves on fire playing with the candles.” “It’s distracting when you stand up and broadly swing your kid around in an infant seat during Mass.” “You’re not supposed to get out of your pew and run around the Church shaking people’s hand during the Sign of Peace.” “Polka Masses, African Masses, Clown Masses, Dance worship, Chirldren’s Masses etc. etc. etc. are abuses and not allowed.” ” When you are naming saints during a Baptism at Easter, there is no Saint Tiffany, Father.” “You are not allowed to put on a child’s Nativity Play during Mass.” “You are not allowed to blast ‘Proud to be an American’ during Communion.” “You are not allowed to throw your jacket over the statue of the Blessed Virgin.” “It’s upsetting when your waltz your aged grandmother up the aisle with your butt cheeks hanging out of your short shorts.” I have witnessed every single one of the things I have mentioned here and many more. I have, for the most part, kept silent. But the people showing a lack of charity are not the one’s who “comment” on these behaviors. The people, both priests and laity, who act this way and/or tacitly condone this behavior are the ones who show a lack of charity and a lack of reverence toward God in his House, and will have to for it.

  6. Work with Father to establish a schola, schedule educational sessions on the traditional liturgy, and to train servers for the Mass.

    Now this is a good idea…. I could use this…

  7. Traditionalists – at least those who are not SSPX – have been denied a proper parish setting for the practice of their Catholic Faith for decades. And now these n’er-do-wells moan and castigate them for not putting down roots? Well, the likes of Unam Sanctam and the (anonymous!) priests he talks about need to think again. Traditionalists OF COURSE have developed a siege mentality, having been spat at, scorned, laughed at, maligned and insulted by the Church at every turn for fifty years.

    Where is the charity? As my mother pointed out to us in the early 1970s, in the mainstream Church it is very thin on the ground or nowhere to be found.

    I will say that at my local SSPX Priory, there is never a word said, not by priest nor by people, against Novus Ordo Catholics. When we think about them at all (rarely, at least in my case) we just desire of course that they also come to know Tradition once again (or, more often, for the first time); but there is no sense of superiority, rather gratitude that we have the unadulterated Catholic Faith as the pearl beyond price. We only wish that the wider global Church would come to understand what it has thrown away onto the midden heap with such utter irresponsibility.

    Personally, I believe that Novus Ordo ‘Catholicism’ and the Catholic Faith are mutually antagonistic, one being the contradiction of the other. This means that in order to keep my Catholic Faith I will have as little to do as possible with the mainstream Church whose leaders more and more resemble * paganistic vipers and devils. God will sort it all out in His own time. In the meantime I have to guard my Faith and try my best to get to Heaven.

    If before Vatican II we were not to pray with the protestant sects, then this now applies too to the Novus Ordo sect (discuss).

    * “more and more resemble” is a kind of Vatican II “subsistet in” evasion. I mean “are”.

    • I’ve seen more than my fair share of “mean-spirited . . . hyper-critical . . . obnoxious” people in many a Novus Ordo parish, Great One. They’re called middle-aged women on the liturgy committee, and these are the very people who unleash their unbridled wrath upon anyone who dares to oppose their “innovations” and “pastoral ideas”.

      I have yet to see a NO pastor do anything but bend over backwards to accommodate them and make them feel “more involved”. Yet, if one suggests actually following the (admittedly scant) rubrics in the NO missal and cutting down on the “extraordinary-but-not-really-extraordinary-’cause-they’re-scheduled-ministers-of-Communion” or—God forbid—that a Mass in the classical rite be scheduled . . . well, then that person is obviously obnoxious and rigid and not to be listened to, because that’s the one thing someone is forbidden to be in the modern NO Church.

      • The clergy of today are terrified of these women who traipse all over the Sanctuary as if they are in their kitchens or living rooms at home. Like you, I have seen it countless times. They are implacable. St. Paul had it spot on with regards to the fairer sex and the Church.

          • Lived and worked in the ex-USSR from 1997 to 2011. Speak Russian, know the history, the literature. When I left, I created TGS as a comedic vehicle to poke fun at all things Russian. Have grown attached to him, though he nowadays comments more or less only on Catholic matters.

          • Perhaps “The Great Stalin” could show Linda by explaining how he deals Apparatchiks who get out of line and complain. (I have a great affinity for your posts and enjoy the sarcastic humor).

          • Thank you Comrade! To answer your question, anyone who has doubts about the wisdom of the White Sea Canal or the latest Five Year Plan is sent to the agricultural station in Kolyma, the “Red Chicken”, there to raise poultry for the hungry masses alongside the Vatican’s black-clad priests who lurk in their incense-choked dens plotting against the Moscow Metro.

    • If before Vatican II we were not to pray with the protestant sects, then this now applies too to the Novus Ordo sect (discuss).

      Interesting concept, comrade. Does this mean that I should not pray with my mother, a number of my brothers and sisters who only attend Novus Ordo Masses? Is there a distinction between private prayer and public prayer? If we recite the rosary at home with our Conciliar families is it less effectual then if we recite them in the local conciliar, parish Church? I would simply advocate that we do not attend Novus ordo Masses unless we are in a situation that requires our charity. In other-words attending weddings, baptisms, etc. Again, are conciliar Catholics less Catholic than “Traditionalists”? I guess that depends upon the person. I suspect the Church supplies for traditionalists and conciliar Catholics alike for the good of souls. What I would say is that the Tridentine rite of Mass is more Catholic than the rite of Paul VI. And so Lex Orandi Lec Credendi!

      • Good points all. I would answer randomly as follows:

        1. I suppose I meant public prayer as opposed to private, family prayer.
        2. I agree that NO Catholics are in theory closer to us than the protestants (but I emphasise the “in theory”).
        3. Conciliar Catholics, insofar as they imbibe protestantism and secularism at the breast so to speak of the Novus Ordo and are taught a faith contrary to Tradition are indeed less Catholic than Traditionalists. This does *not* mean that this or that Traditionalist is holier than this or that NO Catholic – but frankly, it should mean just that. Who is more likely to (a) not assume he/she is saved? (b) practice penance and mortification? (c) hold to the integral Catholic Faith, which the Athanasian Creed tells us we must if we are to be saved?

    • A bit strong, I think, Joe.

      One thing I will say I have noticed, though: mainstream parishes, and parish priests, of course, who include in their bulletins information about goings on in neighbouring protestant churches (special events, ecumenical services, etc.) but wouldn’t dream of doing similarly in the case of the SSPX.

    • At the SSPX there is never an “uncharitable remark” about the NO Catholics. But online they’re “paganistic vipers and devils…” Yes, St. Paul’s words about women are thoroughly endorsed at the SSPX, lest “traipsing” in the Sanctuary be countenanced. I attended SSPX and I have never experienced such hostility toward women in my life, and I’m old. Young healthy males sitting surrounded by women and won’t get up and offer a seat, mothers struggling with multiple children while their spouses ignore them, grown men standing on a narrow walk way and forcing everyone to walk onto muddy grass, with a driveway a few feat away, not allowing women to go first through a door or holding the door for them, even the young boys completely ignore a woman who is trying to direct them away from a car backing up. They only respond to a man.
      From the pulpit a priest will critique women’s fashion (don’t dress like a frump) or they way they prepare a meal (don’t use a microwave). Once an older woman became ill in the Confessional. She was faint and had to be helped to a pew and was only semi-responsive. In a normal situation women would surely come to her aid, but not at the SSPX. Only the acknowledged male “leaders” were permitted to respond because only males can “speak” in a Church. Yes, it’s that ridiculous. The SSPX attracts a certain kind of person and it seldom has anything to do with religion. From his remarks Stalin fits the mold perfectly. It was interesting to me to note that many of the men were foreign and from countries where women have few rights.

      • How would YOU describe the heresies of Bergoglio, the paedophile protection of his chum Daneels, the homo-heresy of his chum Forte, the on the record obscenities of his chum Ricca, and the heresies of his various Latin American chums he has promoted?

        They are demons and vipers.

        As to your description of an SSPX parish, it must be from some fantasy world you have dreamed up. I attend Mass at a local SSPX Priory and the two priests are relaxed, funny, very kind-hearted – true Christian pastors of souls. You on the other hand describe Jim Jones’ mad cult in Guyana.

        After Mass in the Parish Room it’s usually me who makes the coffee for the ladies. And I am definitely a man! haha! Sorry, those of us who know the SSPX ain’t buying your version.

        • That goes for me too. And I know all these at the moment: several No.Ordo priests who have learned the TLM & say them for various communities in Southeastern Michigan / Southwestern Ontario as well as 1 Eastern Rite priest; 1 FSSP priest; 2 Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest priests + 1 deacon; 1 Canon New Jerusalem; & 1 Miles Cristi; & they are, to a man, as described by Great Stalin.

    • If you want a church near you to offer the Mass you desire, then you should not behave like a tourist who drops in occasionally.

      Summorium Pontificum explicitly set the stage for a TLM being granted in a regular basis to the benefit of a stable community which requests it. “Community” means something, and so it is not unreasonable for a priest to bemoan trads refusing to be a part of that community in active support of the parish life which makes the TLM available to them.

      I keep seeing trads expressing difficulty with suffering and martyrdom. Yeah, I know about the mistreatment… so what? If we can’t handle 50 years of this low-grade mistreatment, then how will we behave in the face of actual persecution?

      The early Christian martyrs would laugh at our whining.

      Worse, our refusal to clean up our own act completely undermines our ability to point out the mite in the other guy’s eye.

      I’m getting tired of these excuses, and also attacks on me by fellow trads every time I post my views on this.

      However, I know what I’m talking about. It takes honesty and courage to examine oneself and make the first move to take responsibility. It seems, though, that folks would rather whine about the persecution they’ve suffered.

      The larger question is whether the trad community has what it takes to reach down into our hearts to unfailingly be Christ-like and saintly in exhibiting charity, patience, and humility in our dealings with those who mistreat us. How many lives of the saints who did just this very thing and still managed to persuade their persecutors do we have to read without ignoring the obvious example of what we’re called to do today?

  8. As I had written five years ago in my piece, “The Latin Mass: Why You Can’t Have It,” the main reason for the lack of massive proliferation of the Traditional Mass is a simple matter of supply and demand. There are not enough priests who can celebrate it, and not enough of the faithful who want it. No pastor is going to risk the ability to pay the next month’s bills on the prospect of keeping attendance viable, if he interrupts a Sunday morning schedule with a form of the Mass that less than one percent of the faithful will want, and most of *those* from outside his boundaries. It’s administrative suicide.

    In the Diocese of Arlington, out of sixty-four parishes and missions, eight parishes up to now have offered the Traditional Mass every Sunday, to meet the demand of (you guessed it) less than one percent of the faithful. Thankfully, beginning next Sunday, and ten years after the issuance of the motu proprio, one centrally-located parish will offer it every Sunday, and (unlike the others) in “prime time” (in this case, at 9:30am). This didn’t happen overnight, and not without cultivating a love for Catholic tradition at the offset, through the reverent celebration of the “ordinary form,” including the use of the Proper antiphons, and Latin plainchant for the Ordinary.

    Yes, traditional Catholics are often their own worst enemy, investing nothing in the parish whose Mass they attend, to say nothing of the amateur rubricists who morally bludgeon the priest who is doing his best with what little time he has. Many of them have been pushed around long enough themselves. It’s nothing to excuse, but it’s something to keep in mind.

    • There is not enough of the faithful who want it, because they have not been exposed to it or know about it. The TLM is not just for Traditional Catholics. It is for and belongs to every single Latin rite Catholic. It is for the Novus Ordo Catholics too. Priests have not pushed or exposed the TLM in prime time for Novus Ordo Catholics. The TLM will have more success when a priest decides he is going to schedule a TLM in prime time and pushes it hard on Novus Ordo Catholics. Works hard at convincing those who attend a NO Mass to attend the TLM and give it a try.

    • Let’s do some math with your example in Arlington: 64 parishes x an average of 4 Masses per weekend = 256 Masses/8 Masses offered in the EF = only 3% of Masses are offered in the EF. I would hazard a guess that there are more than 1% of Mass attendees in the diocese at the EF Masses. But even if it’s only 1%, that is not such a bad number for so few Masses.

      • That’s one way of looking at it. Here is another. One eighth of the parishes and missions of the Diocese of Arlington offer the TLM every Sunday, and less than one percent of the faithful attend. Either way you add it up, it is a situation where the supply considerably overtakes the demand, and making it more available does not necessarily lead to a proportionate response.

        And there is only now, nearly one decade after the motu proprio, one parish where it is going to be offered every Sunday, but at a convenient time. Given the circumstances, especially when it is harder to build something back up than it is to tear something down, we have to content ourselves with two things. One is the fact that this is going to take quite a few years before interest rises above one percent. The other is that it will have to before a pastor can justify a “stable group” from within the parish that is actually supporting it.

    • My experience of going from the Novus Ordo to the Traditional Mass is that it is just more effort than most Catholics are willing to expend. It’s like asking someone with a recently broken leg to dance, instead of giving them a crutch to help them walk. I’m sure this opinion will upset many traditionalists, but I really think being able to offer the Traditional form in the vernacular would help to transition people to the older form of the Mass. (It would also make it easier to get diocesan priests to try it). One could even keep the Kyrie, Gloria, Agnes Dei and a few other parts in Greek/Latin. Unfortunately this is not an option and probably never will be- although the Anglican Rite parishes have an approximation of it.

      • We attend a FSSP parish. My wife suggests from time to time: “They should have just allowed the Old Mass in the vernacular and been done with it.”

        As an ex-Lutheran, I’ve seen that approximated in the NO.

        As a one-time attender of Anglican services in Africa, I’d love to attend an Ordinariate Mass.

        • However, Latin is the language of the Church and must not be abandoned for the Mass and the Divine Office. There are excellent translations for pew sitters to follow so there is really no NEED for the priest to pray the Mass in the vernacular.

        • An Ordinariate priest on his blog recently commented that the English translation from the Latin “and lead us not into temptation” was clumsy, and should have been “And do not allow us to succumb to temptation”. So even translating acceptably the Latin into English could be fraught.

        • Two things:

          1) The Second Vatican Council called for the rites to be revised, not merely translated. (The extent to which the former got out of hand is a worthy subject, but another one entirely.)

          2) The purpose served by Latin not only provides for theological clarity, and universality thereof, but from a purely anthropological standpoint, it is common for a people to use an ancient and arcane language when addressing the Divine.

    • Wasn’t it Padre Pio’s funeral Mass that turned out to be a “Sung Low Mass” of sorts? I wonder what the purists would say about that. Or Missionary Masses where all the material details are lacking.

      I think we have all seen pix of priests World War 2 praying the Old Mass in combat theaters. Who would condemn them for a lack of perfect rubrics and pronunciation?

      In today’s world, I’d say anywhere the TLM is prayed is a combat theater, and the priest praying that Mass should treated accordingly, ie with great respect and full support.

    • I’m in the same diocese, and in one of the parishes where the TLM is celebrated each Sunday and at an extremely difficult hour for family attendance. Since I used to read your own blog, I know that you’ve been involved for a long time as an MC- in short, I respect your service and do not dismiss your opinions.
      Here goes, though: if “traditional Catholics are often their own worst enemy,” I have yet to see it. I’m no saint myself but I’ve never failed to thank our marvelous PVs for offering the TLM, verbally after Mass and in writing at least annually.
      As to parishioner involvement…hmmm. Legion of Mary head, she’s there every week. CCD teacher/ American Heritage Girls unit leader, she’s there too. The married couple very involved in pro-life work, they’re there and so are their kids. I’ve worked in our food delivery ministry (ecumenical organization with us Christians as unpaid volunteers for county social services, basically) for 11 years.
      And we still can’t get a Mass time our teenagers can reasonably be up for. The monthly Knights of Columbus’ donut Sundays are not held after our early-morning TLM. The Trail Life/American Heritage Girl fundraisers don’t set up outside the doors for the TLM, only the later morning Masses.
      I try to be “sympathetic” to pastors who battle the bishops, on one hand, and OF parishioners on the other, to ‘allow’ us the TLM. Yes, they’d lose money by moving the TLM to a better time slot, and they’d have to be men of iron to withstand parishioner outrage.
      But I’m at the point that I think they MUST impose better conditions. The laity (the 1%!?) that “wants” the TLM must be ‘grown,’ from the top down at this point, with catechesis, speed and a spine.
      To excoriate the TLM-supporting laity as uninvolved in wider parish work, as complainers so much worse than our usual Catholic selves/fellow pewsitters, is grossly unfair in my experience. We should be grateful for what we have (especially here in Arlington!), and always thank our priests. But trads aren’t our own worse enemies, not by a long shot from what I see. The critiques can be taken to heart when personal conduct has been uncharitable. It can be dismissed as gaslighting, otherwise.

      • SAF:

        Thank you for your reply.

        The experience can vary from one place to the next — Arlington is an exception. Most places are not — and if I for one was ungrateful to our priests, it’s unlikely I’d be working with them. My article goes into more detail than three paragraphs (and I suppose as one of my readers, you would know that). It includes why having a TLM at a convenient time in a typical parish is no small task, and for very practical reasons. As for people not having been exposed to it, I can only say that it is much easier to tear something down than it is to build it back up.

        You can’t operate several large buildings, pay staff a decent wage, and operate a parish school, on nothing more than a spine. It takes our treasure as well as our time and talent. A pastor is responsible for good stewardship of his parish, for the souls of those who are content with the “ordinary form” of the Roman Rite, and are already contributing members of the parish.

        I could go into some horror stories of my own, how I fell in love with the Old Mass again after remembering it as a child (yes, I am that old), as well as what (not to mention who) I had to overcome to fully appreciate it.

        I gave an example in my first comment here, not only of a parish where appreciation was growing, but WHY it was growing, and that it wasn’t all at once. A reverent celebration of the Novus Ordo Missae, with priest and people all “turned toward the Lord” at the altar, the use of chanted propers instead of the “four-hymn sandwich,” and the use of Latin and sung responses (either in Latin or English), can have a gradual effect on the faithful. What began as once a month was found to be sustainable enough that the pastor did what pastors never do lightly, and changed the Sunday Mass schedule to accommodate it. He was heard to have said that it would take a year to gauge its popularity. It only took four months.

        I get a lot of positive comments from priests for what I’ve written, by the way. I’ve been as (pleasantly) surprised as anyone.

        • We are in the same camp, though we don’t seem to be making the same points.
          At my parish, we’ve had the poorly-timed TLM for years. We have a schola. We’ve had, since Advent of 2016, ALL Masses said ad orientem. For at least 8 years and one pastor prior to that, we’ve had the Gloria and the Sanctus in Latin for OF Sunday Masses, at least semi-regularly. The “prep” has been done. And we’re still the red-headed stepchildren of the parish, in some respects.
          Our diocese is indeed an exception. It’s almost cruel, I think, to have this discussion on 1P5, where the majority of readers don’t have anything like what we’re talking about. I still can’t agree that TLM supporters don’t contribute enough-financially or in terms of service to the church.
          Whatever scoldings come our way, from the referenced blogger or from such as Pope Francis, the fact remains that the laity did not impose the OF Mass. Many are grateful, and patient, and very, very justifiably tired of “friendly fire.”

      • He may not be around, so I’ll respond that if you mean to ask which parish is soon to begin a 9:30 am Sunday TLM, it is St. Rita in Alexandria.

  9. I’m still pretty new to the traditional movement, but my feeling has long been that if a diocesan (‘Novus ordo’) priest wants to learn to say the traditional Mass, then good for him! This is very much needed, since the traditional priestly institutes can’t fill the demand all by themselves. But, there is a learning curve involved, which I’m sure is why the FSSP and ICKSP offer seminars (I’ve been to one SSPX chapel now, and I believe they could be a great help in this area as well). I imagine that many of these priests feel themselves in between a rock and a hard place (unsympathetic bishops and liturgists on one hand, and *some* disaffected traditionalists on the other). It’s difficult, I know, but patience and charity are very much needed – on both sides (priests and laity).

  10. The Sunday obligation is to ATTEND MASS. Not to attend a TL Mass.

    Ideally, in the long run, the NO will fade into oblivion. In the meantime, no one is helped by making the perfect the enemy of the good.

    ALL the most traditional priests I know, or have known, in the past 40 years, have taken it as common knowledge that Traddies are frequently (not universally, but characteristically) bitter, angry, and hypercritical, and rash in their judgments. When it is possible to point this out without a torrent of bitter, angry, hypercritical, and rash posts on Traddy blogs, a new level of maturity and self-knowledge will have been reached.

    • What you describe is common but by no means predominant, at least in my (pretty extensive) experience. Those are signs of spiritual wounds — most of which are not self-inflicted. While we should all do a better job of not being ruled by impulse and emotion, it’s not unjust to say that after 50 years of betrayal, abuse, and patronizing contempt, traddies are wary. We are only flesh and blood, and most of us are far from being saints. One thing that sorely tries our patience is grudging concessions by clergy who don’t understand tradition in more than the ritual sense, and make those rituals available on ungenerous terms: irregularly, at times that are untraditional, incompatible with family life and a genuine but not monastic eucharistic fast. You do not get thriving, engaged communities when you subvert them ab initio. If you program for failure, you will get failure — and yes, the only sort of traddies you’ll meet will be the sullen die-hards with serious spiritual and social defects.

      Most of the traddies I know are normal and functional beings, capable of engaging in mainstream social, professional, and family activities. For over 30 years I’ve had the good fortune to belong to a diocesan parish that makes traditional Latin liturgy available in the same suitable place and hour. We have continuity and stability and identity. The parish thrives, even though only one mass a week is TLM, because parishioners make sacrificial efforts with their time and treasure. That is what happens when one’s not made to feel like an unwelcome intruder in one’s own spiritual home.

    • Much of the anger and this torrent of bitter you describe, in those who seek the TLM, stems from a profound sense of loss.
      If only, others would realize that as well.
      And that saddest part, is that many in the NO have no idea what this sense of profound loss is, nor do many want to know.

    • I’m sorry, but “characteristically bitter, angry, and hypercritical, and rash in their judgements” is very poor. That’s not my experience at all – quite the contrary. I particularly take exception to “characteristically”.

  11. I can’t help but scratch my head seeing a priest complain about coming across people like these trads who lack virtue. It’s hard to not just respond “Then call a priest!” If you are a Priest and a parishioner is right in front of you demonstrating a lack of charity, a tendency towards usurpation, pride, etc. you certainly have the option to run and complain about it anonymously online. On the other hand, since they are standing right in front of you, you could correct them and teach them virtue. Unfortunately, even as a Priest, you are going to have to interact with people who aren’t yet perfect.

  12. A few months ago, a rumor was published that a certain bishop had prohibited ad orientem Masses.

    Since the rumor concerned my bishop, I wrote in that the rumor was simply false.

    I was instantly attacked as a “modernist, and the name of the “modernist” seminary I must have attended was demanded. One of our chancery officials also wrote in, and was immediately attacked by name–with “Father” put in quotation marks!

    That some non-negligible portion of Traditionalists are bitter, uncharitable, and even vicious, simply cannot be denied. The proper response to this truth is humble repentance and prayer for increased self-knowledge.

  13. Unfortunately, both these priests have left their posts in offering the TLM, due to the “headaches” of their parishioners. Well, that is life, I am afraid. Does a Novus Ordo pastor decide to say, ” hell with this congregation” when he sees the lack of modest attire at Mass worn by many, the lack of reverence before and after Mass, the chit chatting during Mass, the IPhone during Mass, etc., etc.?

    Both of these priests featured in this article are scapegoating common rude behavior, along with laziness, found EVERYWHERE!!! Their hearts were not in the TLM, not really. They did not understand what it is about the TLM that raises their priesthood, inspires their priesthood even more, in spite of the restless crowd.

    Forgive me, but their justifications are lame. I do not deny their experiences, but to justify their ceasing to do the TLM because of it, is so childish and self centered.

    • I couldn’t agree more! Seems to me they don’t understand their priesthood at all-regardless of which Mass they do!

    • The “lack of modest attire” extends to those exercising a particular “ministry”. (Everything is a “ministry” these days, but then this is the Age of BS). I have long since reached a point where I cannot even abide the very sight of “Eucharist ministers – especially women, who predominate numerically by a ratio of ten to one. How can the younger generation who are so abysmally poorly educated in the faith, possibly develop a sense of awe and reverence for the Eucharist when they line up to stick out a limp hand to some woman in skin tight jeans, cowboy boots and a man’s hair cut, or some guy who presents himself as though he’s turned up for work on a construction site.

        • A few months ago, I attended a novel odour mass at a nearby parish. When the time for Holy Communion came around, the ‘sanctuary’ (for want of a better word), was invaded by a veritable regiment of ‘Eucharist ministers’ while the P.P. disappeared somewhere towards the rear of the church; (It would have come as no surprise if he’d gone out into the street to give Holy Communion to passers-by). When Holy Communion was finished, the token male member of said regiment ascended the sanctuary steps, swigging the remaining contents of the chalice, which he then handed to an acolyte to clean, As he turned around and descended the sanctuary steps, he quite emphatically wiped his lips, obviously still moist from the Precious Blood, on the back of his hand. God only knows what he did after mass; he probably went to the toilet!

          • An “Odour Mass”?! Fantastic concept. The priest consecrated examples of eau de cologne? Chanel No. 5 etc.?

            As to the rest, it’s just ordinary Novus Ordo sacrilege, isn’t it? The invasion of the holy by the profane.

          • Speaking of ‘concepts’: A few years ago, I attended a mass at which, while I was waiting in line to receive Holy Communion from the priest, there were women ‘ministers’ popping out from gaps between the pews, waving the Sacred Host in our faces and sporting sickly smiles while announcing; “the Body of Christ” This gave me an idea; we must move with the times; how about a Eucharist Restaurant franchise. Just imagine; each one would be rendered visible for miles by the huge, illuminated yellow letter ‘E’.”Eat in, take away or drive through; Would you like any fries with that? Enjoy your Eucharist; have a nice day!

            I apologise if I sound too cynical, but sometimes I could despair,

          • Cynicism is fine as long as it’s not evidence of despair! Our Lord Jesus Christ is still very much in charge of His Church. It’s easy to think otherwise, with the Visigoths rampaging about a despoiled and befouled Sanctuary. Yet His seeming silence is a chance for each of us to be a hero, of holiness in an evil world, of resistance in a Church blind drunk on madness and myriad heresies. Oh what a time to be alive, in other words!

            “It behoved that there should be sin; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.”

            Our Lord to Mother Julian of Norwich, late 14th Century.

          • Couldn’t agree more, thank you for putting it so clearly! And Mother Julian of Norwich…inspirational woman.

          • Fear not, dear Josyp Vissiyaronovich; literal despair is not, and never will be on my agenda. It is a great, though often frustrating time to be a Catholic. We have an unshakable certainty that all this detritus will be swept away and erased from human memory. It is our God-given role to help usher in the new times for future generations, and for this we must be prepared to suffer, and gladly.

          • Oh I love Julian of Norwich and I do do do love Eliot’s poem that cites it. I think of Christ asleep in the boat while the winds howl and the waves all but dismantle the timbers. “Don’t you care that we are perishing???”I do feel like that but it is going to get worse I fear before it gets better. The important thing is not to despair. That is the strategy of the evil one these days for faithful Catholics. Like the ring of power from LOTR. “loook on me and despair”. So like Galadriel we must pass the test. Malachi Martin used to say that times like these would test the faith of Catherine of Sienna.

          • Thanks for that great quote – reality is often the only antidote to despair. It is reality that every single one of the “weeds” will be pulled up and flung into the fire. We just need to be wheat in the same field.

          • I used to think it was like the Ziegfeld Follies when they would come sweeping down the aisles and ascend to the altar. Terrible! And all this in a church that had been built to look like an Elks Club. Shattering to my aesthetic sense and devastating to my soul. When I was able to go to my first Latin Mass after the Bishop finally made it available I almost cried. I think I did cry. Now it is harder to get there with health issues etc (more than an hour away) we have very reverent NO Masses here with very devout and very orthodox priests and that for me is a huge blessing. (I know that flies in the face of never attending NO but so be it)

          • I can well understand why you feel this way. However, I am approaching my seventieth birthday, time is precious, and I have zero inclination to squander any of it by playing silly games such as “making things up”. I assure you; what I described is what I witnessed at a 9:30 am Mass on Sunday October 16, 2016. It was at a parish that I very occasionally visit, and seeing what I described reminded me of why I so much dislike the place.

          • That man and his priest should be reported to the bishop. If the bishop will do nothing, he should be report to the Congregation of Bishops at the Vatican along with the priest. This abuse has to stop!

      • It’s doing me a lotta good to listen to everyone’s real experiences in most NO parishes. I instruct children to receive their First Eucharist, and what these children actually end up experiencing as as part of receiving the Eucharist, contradicts the doctrine they learned….primarily the Mass as “the source and summit of the Christian Faith”. ! There should be signs out front with Dress Code for Mass!

  14. Here’s an example of what Traditionalists have had to put up with. Is it any wonder a few of them have grown bitter (a state I do not condone nor encourage)?

    I lived in central Portugal for some years and used to attend Mass in Fatima every Sunday, usually with the FFI (now of course no more) or at the SSPX Chapel close to the Fatima Sanctuary when Mass was available there (one Sunday each month).

    At the Sanctuary office, any visiting priest can ask for a time slot to say Mass at the Capelinha. An SSPX priest approached the office for permission, omitted to mention that he belonged to the Society but did say he would be saying the Old Mass.

    He was deliberately given a time slot of 0430 in the morning of a very cold and wet Winter night so that no pilgrims would see the Mass. I won’t forget that Mass in a long time: there were about five of us in attendance, with the rain sheeting down, a temperature near zero and nothing much visible in the gloom of a Winter night.

    That’s the disdain, even hatred, that Traditionalists have suffered for decades for simply wanting to be Catholics in the same way as all our forefathers were. Yes, we have some embittered and uncharitable folk among us. Not many. I would say even very few (at least in my experience). But all of it pales into insignificance in the face of the persecution (yes, persecution) we have faced from Rome, from Popes, Cardinals, Bishops these fifty years. May God forgive them, and give all Traditionalists the grace to forgive them too.

    • Yes. Well said. There is no denying that a real animus existed/exists toward the powerful grace filled magnificent Latin Mass. and it is persecution. Yes. May God forgive them and have mercy on us all for all our own failures. What you describe in Portugal has the light of the catacombs about it. Perhaps I am too old to be bitter now. I just long for God’s grace to once more shine in the Church. To see reverence and purity and charity and to receive Holy Communion at the altar rail and to see long lines at the Confessional. Before I die, please God. In the meantime I unite this agony and sadness to the Heart of Christ hoping to in some small way to console Him.

  15. As convert, I have not experienced the multi-decade trauma many of you have.

    I was received into a novus ordo parish but it was a meat grinder. I think they went thru 8 priests in 10 years. Terrible situation. Folks were bigotted about rubrics except everybody had a different spin on what constituted correct rubrics so everybody was “wrong”. When I actually studied the rubrics and visited multiple parishes, I began to understand just how much of a mess was the actual-practice of the novus ordo.

    In “my” parish, the Deacon would saunter around talking out loud with folks in the nave before Mass, even chatting during the Rosary some were attempting. A parishioner SCREAMED at one priest in the nave about moving the “choir” from the front of the nave to the choir loft. The Deacon’s wife cornered the priest in the sacristy and SCREAMED at him about a plethora of silly issues so much so men rushed to the scene to prevent an escalation. The priest asked me if his life was in danger.

    We have lots of SSPX folks in the area and they have a terrible reputation among the novus ordo folks for essentially telling everyone who is not a card-carrying SSPX’er that they are going to Hell postehaste.

    I eventually wound up at an FSSP parish.

    Basically, my spin is that the whole cotton-pickin rank and file in the Catholic Church are so broken up, so utterly PTSD’d after 50 years of chaos that anyone can make any criticism they care to make at whomsoever they care to make it and probably it’s true at least to a degree.

    I’ve seen more unity between Baptists & Methodists and than among Catholics.

    I had no idea what I was getting into when I became a Catholic. I feel as though I walked in on somebody’s domestic squabble at times.

    I fully believe the DOCTRINE of the Church but the particulars of culture in the Church today are pretty horrifying. “Civil War” is the term that gets bantied about, and I suppose that is a pretty good summation.

    I will say this; At the FSSP parish, the priests do call out belligerence when the see it, and maybe consequently, I see order and decency prevail.

    Just my $.02.

    • I’m kind of an oddball as we go to Novus ordo during the week (due to lack of TLM availability) and SSPX when available and FSSP when available during the weekends. My experience has been the opposite of yours where the SSPX chapel seems to have more humble, accepting parishioners than the FSSP. This might be because the SSPX’ers are more insulated from having to deal with the crazier antics within the diocese.

      I also don’t get my feathers ruffled when someone gives me their opinion on the “Concilar Church”. Haven’t had anyone tell me I’m going to hell yet though. If I did I would probably just whisper “presumption” in a low voice.

      Having said that- I think a lot depends on the local culture of a particular chapel/parish, especially who is in charge of things- and how the priest deals with those who have the loudest voices.

      To sum it up- when there is a lack of leadership- Chaos follows.

      • I think that is a good post.

        I really cannot say this or that is worse. I just see a lot of fragmentation and lack of unity. Lots of trauma.

        I can certainly understand why some are struggling with deep anger.

    • We were in a diocese that is known for its ‘innovations’. It was a great cross to bear for ten years. We often went to the Precious Blood Monastery, but even there they stood after receiving until everybody else had received, in obedience to the bishop. But at least they didn’t tap us on the shoulder and tell us that we should be standing! When we retired we moved to a sanctuary in a little town with a great bishop. It is a NO Mass. Our priest put back the altar rail, brought out the most beautiful old candle holders, much is sung in Latin, he faces east and preaches about things that he would be thrown out of our previous diocese for saying. Only priests and deacons hand out the Eucharist. Most kneel and receive on the tongue. It was such an immense grace to come to this very special place.We recently went to a Mass outside our parish and all the old distractions reared their ugly heads…..terrible music at the front of the church, women milling about everywhere, too many ‘extraordinary Eucharistic ministers’ for a small number of people receiving. Cardinal Sarah’s book, The Power of Silence is a must read for all.

  16. Hang on a minute! Let me see if I’ve got this straight. You mean to tell me that after half a century of liturgical chaos, vandalism of churches, catechetical disaster, closure of parishes, homosexual infiltration of seminaries, doctrinal confusion, episcopal ineptitude, sex scandals out the wazoo, ridicule of tradition and the destruction of all that Catholics held sacred………that after all of this, some traditional Catholics are actually angry!!!

    Wow…….that’s truly amazing!!

    Well, I have no way of knowing if this is true or not but if it is, I have just one thing to say.

    It’s about DAMN time!!

      • Is there a Nobel Prize for putting ones foot in it because if there is, I think Kiwii should get it. The bulk of the huge civil service in the Vatican cannot possibly remember our Church before Vatican II. And, sadly the “Peter” that the Holy Spirit and the St. Galen Crowd saddled us with is more “Lutheran” than he is Roman Catholic.

    • You have a good understanding of the underlying problem. And I would agree.

      But, at some point, we all must get over it and give our good priests who are trying to do their level best, our best efforts in support. I know, many are still on guard, and for good reason.
      But, if we are so suspicious of each other and that includes the priest reacting to the parishioner at times,
      not much good will be accomplished.

      • This is true, specially when one remembers that there is already a stacked deck against the TLM in some dioceses the powers-that-be are ching for reasons to obstruct.

        A good principle to follow is to avoid giving them a reason to criticise.

        I seem to remember my Mother giving me advise of a similar nature back about 45 years ago…

  17. I’m one of those who has to travel 45 minutes to an hour every Sunday each way and the very reason I do not join the parish is exactly what he wrote-we can’t make reasonably make that trip more than once a week. Not only that, but I have been bringing a Protestant family with me who love the Latin Mass and want to enter the Church but will have to join a different parish that does not offer the TLM closer to home in order to do RCIA. And I have never run into a rude TLM Catholic or seen or heard of any that treat the pastors who offer these Masses badly. We are most grateful that they are. If only we could get at least one parish in every vicariate that offers TLM every Sunday! And priests who make comments like that in my opinion don’t understand their priesthood very well.

  18. This is a really interesting discussion going on here. I have to say having been for years embedded in a full traditional parish until I moved to CT, there were indeed some, shall we say, eccentric types? But it was not rudeness. Quirky, yes, and that I attributed to scars of battle until they found this new home for them. There was, though, beyond quirkiness a subset who were profoundly prone to critique, critique, critique rubrics (how widely were Father’s hands spread), vestments (how deep is the lace), and other things (some practically walked around with a ruler to measure the inches from the floor of women’s skirts, and did pretty much nothing but scowl at those they felt “immodest,” — to me, it actually felt like it was THEY who had sex-on-the-brain.) Others made themselves walking Denzigers, and no conversation could be had without a dissertation with chapter and verse of each and every rule/law/dogma/doctrine that might apply. Some were amiable about it but too much fisticuffs, all apologetics-all the time, raring for a fight with “liberal” Catholics. It was exhausting. It took a lot of the joy out of being around. The day I got yelled at by one man who accused me of the sin of flattery because I complimented Father on his (truly excellent) sermon was the day I realized that it is not unusual in any form of human behavior for people who have long been denied something precious and good to obsess a little bit about it. And so until we have normal parish life again, we are going to have a few who are hard to deal with, and unfortunately often it is these few who are the more vocal. In a much bigger parish setting those few are mitigated by the larger majority who are less intense. When there are fewer, the intensity stands out. It is the way it is. A very good Nun-friend of mine, a cloistered Dominican of traditional order and full habit (but not a traditionalist order) who was raised in a very strict traditionalist setting says they hear and see often at the Monastery lay folk who are desirous of the traditional Mass, or as in Holy Week, a traditional Triduum, who express disappointment and deflation when they see how very simple is the Sisters’ liturgy and chant, which is based on the Dominican Rite. As if it is somehow not good enough, because it does not have the pizzaz they want. She is virtually 100% sure that all this grousing is about the Holy Mass in its traditional form being “out of context” for the very vast majority of Traditionalists, with no organic connection to it, no “culture” to be steeped in from infancy, and so (she shudders when she says this, fearful it will be taken the wrong way) the Mass is seen as an artifact. A “thing” so to speak, with almost too much concern for externalization of form and not sufficient interiority developed in its lay adherents, nor even the priests who offer it. She is very, very, very supportive of the TLM. And the priests who offer it. She puts all the blame onto those who caused this mess and not those who are the acting-out victims of the mess. Still, she bristles some. What did she say…….paraphrased, “Some of these people when I speak to them seem to see the TLM as a set-piece, as if it is a museum item to be dusted off and taken out for display, or a Broadway show instead of the very lifeblood they seek.” She is sad when she says this. She gets why it is. She is NOT making fun. She is mourning the loss, absolving those who err, but acknowledging the imbalance, too. I hope that makes sense.

    • All very good points. Look, at the end of the day these obsessives can be more than a nuisance, they can put new people off Traditional Catholicism altogether and where found, they need to be put in their place. Fr. P____ at our SSPX Priory comes down on any semblance of what you describe very hard indeed – so we don’t get any trouble like that at all.

      But these people too need understanding: it’s all a reaction to the collapse.

      What we should all be aiming at surely is to be the same kind of pious, ordinary Catholics as our pre-Vatican II parents (if old enough) or grandparents, neither more nor less.

      • Ah, oh Great Stalin, thank you for your kind words, and perfectly said for your larger points. I totally agree that a rebuff from proper authority to the most outre would help, if given in charity to them. And with a jot of humor, too. To your point that this behavior puts others off… it is true. I really do not think that is the intent, quite the opposite….but it can be a little stuffy, a little stiff, a little too serious. Heck, can we talk about a baseball game once in awhile?! My Mets are in last place, let’s get our priorities straight, ya know?? 😉 But to be serious, yes, yes, it is all a reaction to the collapse. It is a very real form of PTSD for many, no joke. And for all of us there is a root of profound sadness and loss. The point I love the very most of all you say is that we should strive to be simply “ordinary” Catholics. Piety woven into warp and woof, not self-conscious, is what I think you mean. Perhaps that is it most of all at the root of any of these problems: nothing is natural and simple and easy and self-less in all this rarified approach to Tradition. This is not a criticism. I said to a friend a couple weeks ago at my TLM that I feel like I’m playing dress-up on Sundays. I did not mean it only because of dress.

        • My prayers are answered. I just learned the Mets are now 1/2 game up on the last place Atlanta Braves. God is good. 🙂

          • And my Blue Jays are blowing it again!! Where there are humans, the evil serpent is lurking to take the joy out of our hearts and our interior life at Mass. I am constantly asking for assistance in being recollected.

          • I struggle with being recollected not only during Liturgy but also during morning and evening prayers.

          • My husband is a rabid Phillies fan. When I think of the Phillies and Boston and the Cubs I think “all things come to those who wait”. Had the joy of seeing them win a series (phillies going back to 1980) I am a Boston fan and my father was a Cubs fan his whole life and never lived to see their triumph. (At least from this side)

          • In the world to come, where all wrinkles shall be ironed out, the American heavenly mansion will play only cricket and rugby, with basketball, baseball, hockey and American football banished to the nether regions.

        • Coming from the Novus Ordo to the True Mass is like stepping into a new world, which can lead one to a self-consciousness which really is an attempt to be a Traditional Catholic in a sort of manufactured or imagined manner. With weekly SSPX Masses and other devotions in a very stable parish setting, I just don’t have this problem at all – it’s truly in the warp and woof, as you say.

          It’s only where the Mass exists cheek by jowl with the Novus Ordo that you get these problems. Which supports what I say below about them being mutually hostile entities representing different religions.

          But that’s precisely what the Novus Ordo was designed to be. It’s not Catholic.

        • What a very excellent comment.

          Fwiw- as the older, truly traumatized generation- people who were in their thirties in 1969- die, we are seeing less of this.
          The young people who are coming into the parish are angry that they were deprived of the EF growing up and are feeling their way into incorporating Tradition into their family lives. It can be hit or miss and even the most ordinary piety can look overdone to friends and family in our present world. Right now, it doesn’t feel natural, b/c it’s not yet natural.
          I’m afraid the Bunker Mentality will take decades to undo.

    • Very good comment Julia, however please try using paragraph breaks, your good thoughts will be so much easier to read! 🙂

  19. Given the topic under discussion, the appearance of this link on LifeSite News is quite timely.


  20. I have seen few priests willing to fully embrace the TLM. I have attended a N.O. parish considered to be “orthodox,” however, the sizeable group in pursuit of a Traditional Mass have been stonewalled by the Pastor for years. It’s truly a grind to sit through the N.O., after good exposure to the TLM. The TLM is a heavenly oasis from the noise and dumbed down prayers of the N.O. It is difficult for “Trads” and N.O. Catholics to really agree on much, due to the radically different views held by each, with regard to VII. The VII “saint” popes are a clear example. For example, “Saint” Pope JPII’s writings and thoughts on Islam and other religions, circus like stadium Masses, eccumenical prayer gatherings, would likely have had him sent off to a remote monastery for a life of prayer and hard labor, had he done such things as a Bishop, during the reign of Pope St. Pius X. Traditional Catholicism is what was taught consistently for nearly 2000 years, until VII. N.O. Catholicism is of a completely different mindset, as evidenced by the completely different views of Pope Saint Pius X, and JPII.

  21. I’m blessed to have several options close to home, and I feel sympathy for those who have to travel a long ways for Mass. We have our Ukrainian Byzantine home parish 2 miles away, then about 45 minutes away in Veneta there is a St Pius X parish and school, as well as an indult Extraordinary Form Mass nearby. Then probably about 10 Novus Ordo parishes of varying degrees of heterodoxy.

  22. One has to wonder if the priests in the Unam Sanctam piece believed that critical personalities never existed in the Church prior to the modern era of liturgical choice. I mean, if you want picky, ask an Eastern Orthodox about the “right” way to make the sign of the cross, or whether and when to kneel. Looked at another way, the priests should be grateful that all the Catholic complainers have gone to hang out at the TLMs. This leaves them with the naturally compliant regulars who will never prevail upon their patience and forebearance. How fortunate for them.

  23. Seems to me we should concentrate on making the Novus Ordo Mass more sacred. Because that’s where most of the hungry sheep reside.

    Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Luke 5:32

      • There is considerable work in this area. The Church Music Association of America has convocations for teaching Gregorian chant every year, along with regional workshops elsewhere, teaching for both forms of the Roman Rite. And two publishers publish worship aids for proper celebration; Corpus Christi Watershed, and Illuminare. If you go to the website for “New Liturgical Movement” (, you will find out more.

    • This seems be the tack Cardinal Sarah is attempting to take though it appears he is meeting strong resistance from The Usual Suspect {-s}.

    • I think Fr. Fessio had in mind a reform of the reform of the liturgy encouraged by the writings of Pope Benedict. In 2013 Fr. Fessio set up Adoremus to gather the like-minded into this project. But we know what happened in 2013. I am unsure whether the whole idea is laid aside for the present.

  24. Most diocesan bishops have instituted policies that won’t allow priest to “bump” one of the OF Masses and replace it with an EF Mass. Second: To replace your OF for EF would be financially risky for the Parish ( I know, what you will say ” Father the people are hungry for the EF they just don’t know it.” Father you have no faith, God will provide”). EF and OF attendees all want Mass at 10 am and so if you change the OF to EF the people will leave the parish. Catholic choose a parish for Mass time and parking.

    • 75% of Catholics already don’t attend the Novus Ordo. That’s already a disaster. So some of the parishioners will leave the parish. They will be replaced by the Catholics drawn from other parishes and around the diocese.

  25. “The standard complaint against traditionalists, that we are demanding and obnoxious, has surfaced yet again in the Catholic blogosphere.”

    If someone hears the same complaint often enough, it might indicate that there’s some truth to it.

    “always reveal a much larger and more prevailing problem in the Church today: the continued lack of support for the traditional Latin Mass.”

    I thought it revealed a different problem — the fact that self-identifying traditionalists often enough meet the description provided in the article. I know that I have/do meet that description to some extent. Some people would say “to a greater extent.”

    “That being said, of course some traditionalists need to demonstrate greater charity toward their pastors. All of us, regardless of rite or form, must do so. Patience, reassurance, gratitude, and most of all prayers are owed to our priests.”

    Then much of the criticism is conceded.

    “Unfortunately, for traditionalists it seems that the insults will continue until morale improves.”

    Or, God will continue to chastise whom He loveth, and those who don’t understand that (and who don’t take even restrained criticism mildly), will continue to fill comboxes rationalizing unproductive behavior as the result of victimhood.

    “All of the above suggestions presume that you are in an environment supportive of the traditional Mass.”

    A lot of those suggestions don’t require good will or support on the other side. Sometimes, you need to go first with that.

    “And, in the meantime, maybe more of the clergy and laity can stop looking for stereotypes when they see traditional Catholics and begin to see a group of faithful desperate for community, stability, and a parish home.”

    And maybe traditional Catholics can stop circling the wagons and adopting a siege mentality when someone observes that sin exists in their own community. Shoot the messenger? Or do outsiders have no standing?

    That said, I think the point about parish participation by commuting traditionalists, especially ones with large families, is apt.

  26. My take is Smoke =Fire. Our rep didn’t come out of nowhere…

    Been a member, on and off- and we’ll get to the off later- of our EF community for over 25 years.
    Our situation was unlike that of trying to have the EF in an NO parish- we continued in the same spot at
    the same time(s) for Sunday Masses nearly 17 years until we were allowed to buy a parish church of our own.
    We have always been served by one of the Trad orders. And while we had the usual drawbacks of driving times,
    lack of parish life, having to travel for some sacraments in the EF, we actually had it pretty cushy.

    And yet, the neverending complaints and negativity about everything- but our priests- finally drove me to
    take a break for several years. Now, I blame myself for lacking fortitude and charity, but my reasoning at the time was
    if this is the best form of the Mass, and, as we argue, it disposes us to worship better and be more amenable to grace,
    why are a significant number of us so bitter, critical and rude? We crossed over that fine line between zealous and crazy more often that I like to remember.

    I think it is true that the larger the group, the less the curmudgeons stand out- this has certainly been our experience with the
    explosive growth of our parish. And yet we still get the reminder at announcements that we’re not the Modesty Police, so cut it out, and the regular homilies on Fraternal Correction.

    We are held to a higher standard becasue we claim a higher standard.

  27. The blogger who posted the original article in question attends the TLM and I think would share the sentiments as many commenters here. He was simply relaying what the priests told him and sharing these stories so that hopefully we can learn from them. TLM attendees oftentimes immediately go on defense and start pointing out the similar flaws of lack of charity in the NO. We all understand that not everyone at the TLM as cynical as the examples provided in that article, but I think the whole point was that it left a bad taste in the priests mouths. When we are fortunate enough to get a diocesan priest willing to pray the TLM, it will oftentimes start as a once or twice a month experiment. That’s just the reality that we have to deal with. Eben if it’s not much, run with it. I would suggest that it’s up to the laity to help make it grow to a weekly or daily mass, or help to make it go the other direction into extinction. This is a learning lesson so that we can work to avoid similar things in the future. Let’s not turn it into another “woe is me” pout fest.

  28. Most of the comments cover most of the problems with these two priests. Can I just say that I have personal knowledge of three NO parishes where all of these difficulties can be found – in spades. These problems are not rite specific.

    To point out several things that might cause these problems, that ARE different from NO parishes: many TLM parishes draw from whole districts and are not ‘just down the street’ like in the old days – it’s very difficult to foster that community spirit we all love. Second many of the TLM parishes are small, and there is no pool of volunteers because there are just so few people to go around – men are at work, young people are at college or working, women are at home teaching their children…on and on.

    One more thing. We are often told we are unwelcoming! In my TLM parish we pray the Rosary before Mass and Father is in the Confessional so there is no “greeting ministry” available. After Mass we stay for our Thanksgivings so there is no ‘good-bye ministry” either. Father takes off his vestments, and says his prayers – only then does he come outside to greet the few who can stick around – and then only when it’s nice weather. In NO parishes the priest leads the grand parade outside (in his vestments no less) and there is a loud meet-greet-good-bye opportunity from the Altar to the parking lot. Can all this be one source of this rudeness and lack of community?

  29. I saw the post by Boniface on his blog and didn’t think it was excessively critical or unjust, just a word to the wise. I’m surprised that it is being singled out here. Being trapped, as I am, in an area where nothing exists but the Church of HappyTalk and loony leftist SJW’s, I would like to think that, if the TLM were offered in my area, I would be extraordinarily grateful and uncritical. However, I can attest that after years of seeing what you love being crapped on by the church at large, and countless souls being misled, it is pretty easy to become embittered.

  30. I was pastor of a parish for 16 years before accepting my present assignment. I established a “Tridentine Mass” at the parish as soon as it was allowed by our bishop. It was every Sunday at 9am. Some of the people who attended it were rude, demanding, stingy and critical; others were not. You find that at any parish Mass. My difficulty with the “Latin Mass crowd” was that they were following a different calendar than the “English Mass crowd”. It was like having two separate parishes. I really wonder if Rome thought about this problem when it established the norms for the celebration of Mass in the “extraordinary rite”. Also, it was true that some of the people who attended the Latin Mass did not join in with the rest of the parish in various parish programs or at parish social events. But guess what – neither did most of the people who attended the English Mass. Our bishop has now established a quasi-parish, staffed by three priests, where all Masses are in the “extraordinary rite” , and all the rest of the sacraments, as well. It is so new that I do not know whether this will cause other parishes in the area to drop their own Latin Masses. I hope not.

    • May I ask what diocese this is in? And are these three priests diocesan or do they come from one of the traditional societies?

    • I, too, have scratched my head over the alteration to the calendar. But then I suspect it was directly chosen as a means by which to facillitate what became the “Common Lectionary” w/ the Protestants which is now more or less defunct.

      As an ex-Lutheran, I simply laugh out loud at any suggestion that the NO Mass was NOT an attempt to Protestantize the Mass.

      I am only a convert of 4 years, but at age 53, I hope to live long enough to see in the Catholic faith a re-established unity of doctrine and teaching. I have no problem with 24 Rites, but I do have a big problem with more than one Magesterium. And practically-speaking {as in, what people commonly see and hear as opposed to what is doctrinally true}, as is highlighted by this pontificate, we have at least a plurality of “Magesteriums” at this point in history.

      I liken this to the situtation when we had 3 contenders for the See during the Great Western Schism. In fact, all thru that crisis, a crisis of decades, we never had more than one true Pope.

      Just as today we have exactly ONE true Magesterium.

      But just as then when many supported bogus Popes, we have today many who support bogus Magesteriums.

      May God clear away the chaos soon!

    • That is the absurdity of having two different Roman rites. Two different calendars for two different Masses because we have the unprecedented crisis of having two different Roman rites at the same time.

        • I don’t think it will be. I think what is going to happen is that it will at some time in the future be reformed a la the goals of Cdl Sarah. When? A long time from now probably. There are just too many people world wide that have known nothing but the NO. Hundreds of millions, actually.

          When the heretics finally leave, I do think they will take the NO w/ them, but I also think what that will do is leave the job of reforming the NO that much easier.

          I mean, can you really see the Church abrogating the NO in it’s entirety?

          I just can’t see that.

          Just $.02.

          • The Novus Ordo is not Catholic Rod. Sacramental validity is the very least quality it should have. There is so much more. I am 100% certain it will be abrogated one day (and Vatican II declared a false Council).

    • Maybe if those who pushed for VII didn’t eff up the mass many of the issues of the calendar wouldn’t be present.

  31. Mr. Williams, don’t take this the wrong way, but it appears you need to read more in-depth
    from an historical, unbiased perspective into the early gatherings for the Lord’s Supper of
    Christian communities. The Tridentine Mass was an innovation itself. Your sentence containing
    “a Mass …and organically developed (with minimal change) over 2,000 years” is untenable
    from an historical perspective, especially bereft of any truth if the posit is to denigrate the
    Mass of Paul VI or use of the vernacular language.

    • The “Tridentine” Mass has existed in a form very similar to its current state from at least the time of St. Gregory the Great. St. Pius V, when he promulgated the Missae in 1570, did so to stop a variety of strange masses cropping up and any use that did not have at least 200 years of patrimony was to be ended and those places were to take up the use that existed in Rome at the time. This liturgy has become known as the Tridentine Mass. That indicates that the Roman liturgy existed for at least 200 years prior to this. But if you trace the lineage back, it goes way, WAY back. The Tridentine Mass is not an innovation, and it grew as a liturgy organically over time, taking small elements from various places and incorporating them into the liturgical rites until eventually that was simply “how it was done” while being carefully cultivated and nurtured by the pastors, bishops, and popes over the centuries. Comparing the Novus Ordo (which you’re doing here) to the Tridentine Mass is simply unjust. The Novus Ordo was constructed by a committee of protestants primarily. The Traditional Latin Rite was most certainly not.

      • For example, I understand that the Canon remained unchanged from the time of St Gregory, in the 6th century (and I gather that the change made then, to the Hanc Igitur, I think, caused riots in Rome) until the time of Pius XII, almost 1400 years later.

        I don’t like the phrase “Tridentine” to describe the traditional mass, because the implication that it was created following Trent is used, I think, to imply that the creation of a new rite following Vatican II is normal and has precedent. That is not true.

      • A few Protestant observers does not mean the Mass is Protestant. Brush up on your Mass history, but not only the liturgical arrangements, the entire congregational protocols. Do you believe the Utraquits and Callixtines should have been executed simply because they wanted the Precious Blood in their Masses? The Orthodox are more correct to dip the Eucharist (intinction), as Christ did in the Gospels, than the Tridentine Masses which reserve the Blood only for the celebrant.

        • If you don’t think the Novus Ordo is at least strongly influenced by Protestant liturgy, then take a look at this. It gets interesting at about page 151.

          Why would I think someone should be executed because of liturgical practices? I may not have all the intricacies and names of various groups throughout history down in memory, but what I do know is that the Mass as it existed up through 1962 can be traced back all the way to Apostolic times. The various customs involved became ritualized sometime in the 4th and 5th centuries, and then was codified by Pope St. Gregory the Great around the year 600 AD. There have been minor changes, additions, and alterations that developed in an organic way over the centuries, but there was no strange, novel construction as occurred with the Novus Ordo.

          Your comments here raise a question for me that I hope you would answer. Are you Catholic? Where we proceed in this conversation depends on whether you are or not, I think.

    • Ahh.

      /begin denigration

      Trent, Session 22
      CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.

      /end denigration

    • “The Tridentine Mass was an innovation itself.”

      Well, one has to admit that it didn’t exist in the First Century BC. But it did exist in all essentials by the end of the First Century AD.

      What a fatuous post. I’m glad I haven’t come across your blog before now. I won’t be visiting it.

      • Very charitable response. Way to win others over. Nope, no traditionalist has EEEEEEEver been personally obnoxious.

          • “A classic example of the bent perspective presently posing as reason in Roman Catholicism. This is simple ignorance. The passive aggressive superiority comportment exhibited in this comment is symptomatic of the irrationality that has managed to survive in dark places from 1978 to 2013 and now reigns venomously. Rest assured, no one with open eyes is deceived. I’m told there are a host of denominations which you would
            find unthreatening and quite cozy in their tailored to fit ideologies.”

            How many tacks were you sitting on when you typed that?

          • Hey, let’s keep it civil guys! That goes to everyone in this particular thread. Either bring it back to the topic at hand or let it lie!

    • unam_sanctam

      It was Bl. Pope Paul Vl who argued at the Council that some vernacular could be allowed in the Mass, with a warning, “Brother Bishops we must proceed with great caution and prudence on this” He was ignored and after the Council with great sadness said, “Because of the Council, the Church is in auto destruction” He tried to restore Latin but it was too late. The Council made a firm decision, “Latin is and remains the official language of the Church” We don’t slam the New Mass because of Bl. Pope Paul Vl. We slam all the abuses, we slam Bugnini who was proven to be a Mason and we all know what the job of Masons are. Just one point in fact, Annibale Bugnini with his New Mass inserted heresies into it. That’s when the Otavianni intervention comes in. Bl. Pope Paul Vl ordered those heresies removed. St. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl recognized the damage done to the Mass and they called for “The Reform of the reforms” Cardinal Raymond Burke is still working on restoring the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar as well as the option for Priests to use the ancient Offeratory. Pope Benedict XVl made it clear that the Mass is supposed to be said “Ad Orientem” that Mass facing the people is an error. And somehow we Traditionalists are reactionaries for supporting the initiatives to reform. The Church recognizes that there is in fact disorder and if we Traditional Catholics agree then we are only to be condemned as being mentally ill because of bad experiences.

  32. I have to wonder, did the priests who quit saying the Traditional Latin Mass because of the rude people even try to win the people over? I understand there are rude traditionalists. It’s been my experience that most are either mentally ill, or are bitter because of their life experiences. The mentally ill ones can’t help how they act. People should just ignore them if they can’t handle them. Those who are bitter because of their life experiences probably need someone to take an interest in their well-being, get to know them, and help them find peace. It may be difficult, it may not seem to be effective at first, and there may be setbacks, but people of good will generally respond to kindness. These priests have probably visited prisons. I’m sure they’ve worked with the homeless and with drug addicts. They’ve encountered rough people in those crowds. Even elderly people in nursing homes, who they hopefully are visiting regularly, can be pretty cranky sometimes. Somehow, I doubt that the priests who stopped offering the Traditional Latin Mass also stopped visiting those people. They know that when people are broken, or are not feeling well, they often lash out at people who are trying to help them. Traditional Catholics have their problems too. Why don’t they deserve to be treated with patience compassion as well?

      • I think Michael is saying that most rude traditionalists are mentally ill or bitter. I think “mentally ill” is wide of the mark in most cases, but not uncharitable; I can perfectly understand bitterness, as I think you do, too.

          • The alternative, Great Stalin, is that most rude traditionalists are perfectly mentally healthy and therefore completely at fault for their rudeness. Maybe you should try not reading so quickly.

          • Have you met the same rude traditionalists that Michael has met, such that you know his characterization of them is wrong? Are there no mentally imbalanced people who attend the TLM? Or is it a miraculous place where no mentally imbalanced people ever go (which would make it the one place on earth where one can’t find the occasional mentally imbalanced or embittered person)? Your posts in this thread fit a stereotype — the chest-thumping zealot who brooks absolutely no alternative perspective. The original criticism over at Unam Sanctam touched upon this very reality.

      • I said “I understand there are rude traditionalists. It’s been my experience
        that most are either mentally ill, or are bitter because of their life
        experiences.” I should have worded it better. I meant that most of the rude traditionalists in particular are either mentally ill or are bitter because of their life experiences. That certainly doesn’t apply to all traditionalists. It only applies to a small minority.

        • A classic example of the bent perspective presently posing as reason in Roman Catholicism. This is simple ignorance. The passive aggressive superiority comportment exhibited in this comment is symptomatic of the irrationality that has managed to survive in dark places from 1978 to 2013 and now reigns venomously. Rest assured, no one with open eyes is deceived. I’m told there are a host of denominations which you would
          find unthreatening and quite cozy in their tailored to fit ideologies.

        • I have a sister who works in a very senior mental health position in England. I can assure you that to talk of people being “mentally ill” without any background in that profession is to stand on very thin ice. Yes, you should have worded your caustic comment much more accurately – which would be to say that the vast majority of “rude Traditionalists” are NOT mentally ill.

          • He didn’t mean “the majority of Traditionalists—who are rude people—are mentally ill.” He meant that the majority of those traditionalists *who happen to be rude* — the rude traditionalists, as opposed to the non-rude ones — are either mentally ill (i.e. they act that way) or are embittered. It’s not difficult to see that that’s what he meant. He was purposely trying to say, “Those traditionalists who act rudely don’t do so because traditionalism itself conditions them that way.” He was on your side! If you’d read more slowly and deliberately, you might have seen that.

          • Bonifacius, If anyone has mentality problems it would be the Novus Ordo Modernists who know nothing about their Catholic faith. They have no idea of what they have been robbed of. As for Traditionalists having some bad experiences? They sure have. When the Church they love is being ravaged, that is the worst experience anyone who loves Christ and His Church could possibly have. What can one do when the wrecking ball has been swinging against the true faith established by God Himself for salvation? Like Christ in the Temple they become indignant. When fanatic modern Catholics start attacking Traditionalists with a barrel of errors, tell me what they are to do.

          • PaxTecum57,

            Go read Michael’s post again. He was coming to the defense of traditionalists. He was saying, “I have met some traditionalists who act obnoxiously. Most of those rude ones either have mental issues or are embittered.” He then went on to say that there’s simply no helping the mentally ill ones — nothing can be done there, and it doesn’t reflect on traditionalists. As for the embittered ones, someone should reach out them. Then some people above, who apparently either can’t or won’t read with charity, misinterpreted it.

            So, Michael said that he has, on occasion, encountered some people who attend the traditional Latin Mass, and these people seem mentally unstable. Sounds perfectly plausible. There are mentally disturbed people in every grouping of people. You’ll get that. He was *not* saying that mental disturbance is in any way typical of traditionalists. I was responding to the misreadings of Michael.

            On a side note, the excessive displays of raw emotion and poor reasoning in this thread is a much better proof of the existence of obnoxious traditionalists (i.e. the existence of traditionalists who on at least some occasion are obnoxious) than the post over at Unam Sanctam Catholicam was. Michael above made a quite reasoned *defense* of traditionalists, and got slammed for it. Many, many of the responses on this thread are hysterical. Someone somewhere observed that some people “we” identify with have, on occasion, proven to be flawed human beings in a very specific way. And *that* somehow elicits however many hundreds of posts in this thread.

          • Bonifacius, I went back and read Michael’s post again. My opinion does not change, Michael is giving to us Traditionalists a pathetic type of pity that no one deserves nor desires. What you read in it, may have confused you. We know what Michael is saying. Now I want Michael to write something on the Catholic Modernists “mental illness” and “their bad experiences” that explain why they act toward Traditionalist Catholics the way they do. Let him write on how we are marginalized, condemned, laughed at, made a joke of, their error laden self attained Infallibility, all the evil they practice against Traditionalist Catholics in the name of the “”New Church”. Whats the excuse for those nutty Novus Ordo’s with all their programs that have been forced on us and have failed Christ during the past 50 years?

          • Bonifacius,

            I am going to relate to you a true story that may be food for thought.

            A few years back I went on a Pilgrimage to Rome and Fatima. From the beginning a Priest struck up a conversation with me. It was sort of a question and answer session that lasted 8 days. He began by asking me what type of Catholic I considered myself, “Liberal, Conservative or Traditionalist”, I answered Traditionalist. That’s when our long conversations began, in no way were they debates. He asked many questions on what my opinions were on the Church as a Traditionalist. I gladly answered all his questions with sincerity. An example was that he asked me my opinion on Vatican Council ll, I answered, “The worlds Bishops gathered in one place. They raised a beautiful long stemmed Rose and presented it as the present Church. They decided to make the long stemmed Rose more beautiful. So they ripped off the foliage, plucked all the petals from the Rose and snapped the long stem in many different places. Then gladly presented the Rose, The New Church, more beautiful than ever.”. At the end of the Pilgrimage he asked, “Do you know why I asked you all those questions?” and I answered no. He then said to me that he was on this pilgrimage seeking what Traditionalist Catholics were all about. These were his final farewell words to me, “I am a Liberal and I had no idea what we Liberals done to Traditionalists. I apologize to you for what we have done to you. When I return to my Parish I will apologize to all the Traditionalists in my Parish. I now understand.”

            Before judging a Traditionalist do as this Priest and with true sincerity find out who we are before giving us this lame pity.

  33. Bravo, Brian Williams!! Excellent article. I too have read about these two priests and I don’t think it was a very fair representation of traditional Mass Catholics. Thank you for a very balanced look at this issue.

  34. Great Article. But something that was not elaborated on, is the way Novus Ordo’s treat Traditionalists. In my Diocese we had weekly Traditional Latin Mass at a Chapel located on the grounds of the Diocesan Chancery. We were a peaceful group who accepted the validity of the Novus Ordo. We were complained about to the Bishop as being reactionaries, it was they who began to attack us. We were then moved to a Parish Church. The parishioners spoke to us with smiling faces and told we need to accept change, to forget the Old Mass and rather attend their guitar Mass’s. Traditionalists responded, we were then condemned to the Bishop as being reactionaries. At another Diocesan location we had little or no contact with other parishioners. Yet they then reported to the Bishop that we rejected Vatican ll and were not accepting changes, they claimed we were reactionaries, the Bishop ended our Mass’s. Now I’ve witnessed some real reactionary Traditionalist but mostly reactionary Novus Ordo Catholics. According to Pope Benedict XVl those Novus Ordo reactionaries were programmed that way. Sad they viciously attack and then claim we Traditionalists are causing problems to the unity of their Faith Community.

    • That is closer to the mark, in my experience – and not just in the case of traditionalists. I know priests (not many, but a few) who have been victims of similar complaints for things like not using extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, not having female altar servers, wearing the cassock, etc. – even to the extent of being excluded from parish ministry for several years as parishes are closed or merged for lack of priests.

  35. Hello, I happen to be a Catholic that goes to the Norvus Ordo Mass and was starting to visit a traditional Mass at a convent maybe 30 minutes away. It was going along, but then my wife and I attended a birthday party for one of the priests at a restaurant. I had to leave. Every single word out of the mouth of the people there was how terrible Catholics that don’t choose the traditional mass are. It was awfully insulting and constant. Complain complain complain, slam slam slam. There was no charity, no love. This turns me off so much so that I had to leave. It wasn’t just one it was all that I met. Sheesh!

    Lord Jesus, touch them deeply. They know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Open everyone’s hearts. Amen.

    Mary Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us. Amen.

    • Given the ecclesial environment they — and we — inhabit these days I’d say their comportment, while poor, is understandable.
      Are you following the news out of Rome the past four years?
      Our Church is on a suicidal trajectory which the Bergoglians regard as a joy ride. There is ample reason for bitterness.

    • Roland,

      Thanks for your input. What were the Traditionalists saying? Now tell us about the Modern Catholics who are by far worse in their, “Complain complain complain, slam slam slam” Have you ever heard them? Did you just excuse them? Did you leave never to return to a large group of anti-Traditionalists? I am a witness for years of how Modern Catholics attack the Church, insulting her, calling her a backward Church etc.. I didn’t leave and haven’t left, I have no choice but to put up with their blasphemies and sacrileges.

  36. I see a lot of comments about, “well, if we weren’t treated this way” or the tone of the post “if the Church had more TLMs…”

    1) We bear responsibility for our own actions. That’s like saying Christ was spit upon so if He had lashed out, it wasn’t His fault. But Christ said the example, remember? We are not the victims, because we’ve been given such a grace.

    2) For every vine that does not grow fruit, the Lord will prune and cast into the fire. Traditionalists are complainers; it’s pretty simple. There are varying degrees but to deny that it’s endemic is silly. Fr. Ripperger even says the traditional movement has a generational spirit, either of complaint or criticism. If we are not growing in holiness and conquering our vices, why would we expect the Lord to give us more TLMs in the Church? If this vine is not bearing fruit…

    • The vine is bearing great fruit, and hence the number of TLMs grows world-wide year on year.

      And that’s with many if not most of the vineyard managers trying to uproot the vines with their bare hands.

  37. I attend the Latin Mass St Ann in Charlotte NC, about 45 min away, the same one pictured above. I used to teach the JPII Catechism and Scripture at my former parish before I really knew the Traditional faith, and eventually that parish became bi-ritual too, with a great and holy pastor . I have come to be in complete agreement with Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre with regards to Vatican II. So do you think Fr Reid would let me teach Catechism to kids knowing that I am a “Lefebvrist” ? Or do Bible studies? No, he probably would not, because I would teach the opposite of what Vatican II taught. So, even at a “traditional” parish, I am still effectively an outsider.

  38. The fundamental issue is that there is almost no integration between Catholics who attend the traditional Latin Mass and Catholics who do not.

    When a parish offers the traditional Latin Mass, even if it is celebrated weekly, the TLM goers will be a small sub-parish unto themselves, having limited interaction with others in the parish even if they have a thriving ecclesial life with one another. This will be the case even if the pastor is extremely positive about the TLM, and very welcoming to those who attend.

    An excellent example of what I mean is the parish where my family attends the TLM. We do not exclusively attend the TLM, we also attend Mass in English at another parish. I would estimate that we attend TLM about 1 time per month, and in English about 3 times per month on average. My 10 year old son is an altar server at the TLM (we didn’t want him to serve at the English Mass, because at least in our are most of the servers are girls).

    By contrast to the usual stereotype, the people who attend the TLM at this parish are warm, extremely friendly, and have a very strong community (with weekly ‘convivium’ lunches after the TLM, and many other events and activities). Fortunately the pastor is very supportive, and he is generally the celebrant at the TLM. He very actively encourages the TLM community, and can often be found participating in the events which extend beyond Mass. So far so good, right?

    But the issue is, as I suggested above, that the TLM community is it’s own little world within the larger parish. The TLM community does not have much of relationship with the wider population of the parish. This is not by way of the stereotypical self-righteousness or holier-than-thou-ness that people associate with traditionalists. It is simply a consequence of the fact that the TLM group has their own Mass time, their own lunches after Mass, their own parish events. They are a sub-parish, a parish within a parish. And I this is the case even though the pastor actively seeks to integrate the two communities as much as possible.

    I don’t say all this because I have some easy answer to the problem. I don’t, I’m not sure that anyone does. It’s just a fact that if people celebrate liturgy separately, and experience the life of the parish separately (engaging with a different group of people, seeing different faces at Mass and at parish events), then there will be in the concrete two parishes in the same building. Something similar happens with the other parish we attend, where there is a large Haitian community. Because many of the Haitian parishioners only speak Haitian Creole, and do not speak much English, there is a distinct Mass time where our Haitian priest (Fr. Jean) celebrates Mass in Creole. But as a consequence there is little interaction between the Haitian members of the parish and the other members.

    It’s not an ideal situation. Many would respond by saying, “Well, you wouldn’t have these divisions if every Mass, everywhere in the world, was in the same language (Latin).” To give an answer to this would mean jumping back into the arguments that I always end up getting into here on 1P5, namely the validity and worth of the Second Vatican Council. But I think we can all agree that the current situation is not great. In places where there is not much support for the TLM, people who desire to attend the TLM every week end up (effectively) without a parish, driving hours just to go to Mass and thereby fulfilling the stereotype that they just have a Latin “fix” to satisfy insofar as they don’t make the same long, expensive drive during the week to attend other parish events. But even in places like the parish I discussed above, where the TLM is offered every Sunday, and where the pastor is extremely welcoming and supportive of people who want to attend the TLM, there is invariably a parish within a parish, not integrated into the larger community.

    At the very base of all this, of course, is the theological division that causes people to decide to attend Mass exclusively in Latin. Putting it simply, many are convinced that the Mass approved by Paul VI (the so-called “Novus Ordo”) is not really the Mass, even if they do not for that reason reject the Council outright or deny the apostolic succession of the popes of the last 50 years. Why would you take your children, or yourself, to something that isn’t really the Mass, something that is at best a pale substitute and at worst a horrific mockery?

    Of course people are going to be willing to drive 3 hours each way to go to the TLM if they are convinced of this. On the other side of the spectrum, you have “progressives” who are upset that Benedict allowed for the TLM to return at all, and who resist the TLM wherever they encounter it (and many bishops and cardinals are included here). The result is that hard battle lines are drawn, which only exacerbates this parish within a parish reality.

    I would defend the position also taken by Cardinal Sarah (if I understand him correctly): i.e., that the Mass approved by Paul VI is truly the Mass, and that attending it is not a participation in something evil, but that the changes made were done in a deeply problematic way, and that there is a desperately urgent need for liturgical reform insofar as liturgical abuses are contributing in a decisive way to the destruction of the faith of millions. Hence I attend Mass in English and also in Latin, as we want our children to know both forms (though our sons will only serve in the TLM).

    I pray that the next Pope will (somehow, in spite of Francis stacking the deck of the college of cardinals) not be one of the same faction that elected Bergoglio, and that in addition to helping heal some of the grave damage wrought by Amoris laetitia, the next Pope might make one of his chief concerns the reform of the liturgy.

    • I would ask a different question. Why would anyone want to “integrate” with other people who have a totally different view of what is the Christian Faith?

      Don’t expect integration between two different religions. That’s not being “holier than thou”, merely realistic.

      • I disagree, someone has to take a step to work with others that may not know Latin. If that person went and introduced themselves and spoke with those that do not know Latin maybe bridges would be built. I say this based on never knowing the Latin mass but on experiencing Latin to a certain degree through our parish. Now as a Father of two young children I know that their faiths would be better seeded by the TLM. The ordinary form does not flow as a mass should.

          • Thanks GS, I understand. Anne Catherine Emmerich spoke of this. Sadly we have a similar situation in our parish in the sense that there are Baptisms, Marriages and Funerals where another priest is invited to the parish because the people do not agree with our parish priest.

            I’m guessing that this is the same sort of thing.

      • You’re hilarious, man. You say (both here and in other comments on this article) that “Novus Ordo” is a different religion, not even Catholicism, and then you simultaneously complain that Traditionalists aren’t treated well or welcomed with open arms by parishes or dioceses. Of course people aren’t going to receive traditionalists well if they get the strong impression that the Traditionalists don’t even see them as being actual Catholics, and have every intention of eventually ‘taking back’ a parish that they see as being occupied by another, false religion. If you speak to people about them having a different religion, then expect that they will return the favor in kind (i.e., viewing you and your TLM buddies as a different religion, and therefore unwelcome in their parish).

        If you had legal claim to the buildings of a parish, and had your dream situation (only TLM celebrated, nothing to do with the “Novus Ordo”) how receptive would you be to a small group of “Novus Ordo” people that wanted to have a Mass there? How welcome would you make them feel, if they openly declared that TLM is not the real Mass anymore, that you aren’t really Catholic?

        I fully understand that there have been times in the history of the Church when buildings really were occupied by groups claiming to be Catholic who weren’t (in particular, during the Arian crisis; also in England after Henry VIII, and at various other times). Your point is that if the “Novus Ordo” is a betrayal of Tradition, then the celebration of it is not really Mass, in which case those who participate are not really Catholics. I get all of that. My point in reply is: Don’t speak in terms of “different religions,” and then complain when Traditionalists get treated as outsiders or unwelcome by “Novus Ordo” parishes. If you’re a different religion, then you should fully expect to be treated as such.

        You accuse hundreds of millions of people of being non-Catholics because they participate in the “Novus Ordo,” and then you expect them to open their doors to a group that wants to have the TLM and roll out the red carpet. Think again.

        EDIT: Oh, and by the way, this comment isn’t only directed at Stalin, but at all the many here who don’t necessarily speak honestly (as Stalin does), but who make it clear in every single comment that they understand “Novus Ordo” as a wholly different religion from Catholicism.

        • No hilarity about my views at all, Comrade. As I noted, these problems only occur when Catholicism confronts Novus Ordoism in the same physical space.

          Yes, of course it would be ideal to have the two wholly separate. Then authentic Catholicism can begin the centuries-long task of re-christianizing the world while Novus Ordoism slides further and further into liberal protestantism then finally the atheism and total irrelevance that lies at the end of that process.

          In the meantime, stop moaning. It is Traditionalists who have had their birthright plundered and stolen from them, not the Novus Ordoites.

          • Stop moaning? I pointed out that your position is inconsistent. On the one hand, you claim (at least 5 times in the comments on this article alone) that “Novus Ordoism” is not Catholicism, but a different religion. And yet you also complain (on every article on this site) about how poorly and rudely Traditionalists are treated by various parishes, dioceses, etc.

            If it’s really a different religion, if these parishes are not actually Catholic parishes but the parishes of a different religion, then you shouldn’t expect to be treated well, or in fact welcomed into the parish at all. Would you expect to be welcomed into a Lutheran church, and invited to use the buildings? If you’re going to say that “Novus Ordoism” is fundamentally the same thing as Lutheranism, then you should expect the same warm welcome in both cases. You can’t get angry about rude treatment and then also talk of two different religions. Stop moaning indeed.

  39. [Additionally, of course many are “chasing” after traditional Masses; this has to be done when TLM’s are only offered one Sunday a month at 4:00PM (or later) or on a “semi-regular” basis. Providing a stable location for the Mass will natural produce…stability!]

    This about sums it up. In my city with *many* well attended parishes, there is 1 Latin Mass once a month at 4:30pm. While I appreciate even that, of course you won’t end up with a community. You didn’t give it a chance!

    My wife isn’t super into TLM, and its inconvenience and inconsistency makes her hesitant to go, when we have a pretty solid Novus Ordo parish. At the end of the day, family unity is more important, so I mostly skip TLM.

    But you can bet your butt, that if it was offered weekly on Sunday mornings, that would be our Mass. That would be our home. And I know many more like me.

    • It is my opinion that the TLM appeals somewhat more strongly to men than women, which might help to explain the prevalence of families in the TLM parishes.

      • I know loads of women deeply disgusted w. the novus ordo & loads who are in heaven at TLM. I see authentic holy catholic masculinity in the TLM though, instead of the simpering stuff at novus ordo, so naturally you’ll get the men connecting.

        • I agree. My wife is one who sees in the OF and community much mischief.

          I do believe men have a place in the TLM communities that does not exist in the same way in the more “Protestantized” communities where for lack of a better word effeminacy or what might be called a matriarchal society rules.


          Family size.

          All Catholics should indicate a higher family size on average than the godless secular world and the immoral Protestant communities, but as we all know, that is simply not true in the OF communities. Why? It’s obvious; the truth isn’t being lived and “why should it” if it isn’t being taught?

          I’d like to see a study of the percentage of priests coming out of TLM communities per capita vs the NO communities.

          • Yup; we were just discussing in our 22-yr old TLM community (we rent the church).
            We have had 1 fulfilled vocation to priesthood (Canons Regular of New Jerusalem) & 1 entering seminary fall 2017. Not bad!

  40. The picture in your article is none other than the beautiful St Ann’s in Charlotte! It is a blessing to be able to attend the TLM there each Sunday, truly a great gift from God. The priests – Fr. Timothy Reid (Pastor) and Fr. Jason Barone are very supportive of TLM and the Latin community. Treat yourself to some of their homilies at the parish website

  41. This entire topic seems to be oriented toward presenting an overall negative impression of Catholics who prefer the Latin Mass. Even those comments which appear to
    be sympathetic toward Traditional Catholics by explaining why they are “obnoxious” agree that indeed they are “obnoxious.” Isn’t this an amazing twist on reality?
    In the past 50 years the behavior of “Catholics” and priests has degenerated to the point where it is actually painful to attend a regular parish Mass. You never
    know exactly what you are going to see, but you know it is going to be irreverant, impious, irrelevant, possibly blasphemous, innovative, silly, meaningless, disrespectful, attention seeking, one or all of the above. The people will come in talking loudly and continue to do so until Mass begins. They will sing a few pop songs. They will have a few Bible readings. There will be a homily of sorts. They will offer up bread and wine. They will take Commuion in their hand from a lay person. They will say the Our Father and all shake hands. They will receive a blessing and depart. The people will dress in their Saturday cleaning attire. Their children will act out without correction. Everyone will begin talking loudly again, in Church, as soon as the priest departs. That’s the Catholic Liturgy. No one seems to have any problem with this picture. These are the good Catholics that the priests prefer because they don’t give the priests one bit of attitude. Everyone is perfectly accepting of whatever goes on, and that’s how everyone likes it.
    There is very little of God in any of this. Oh He gets mentioned, but everyone is completely convinced, including the priests, that God is just like them, accepting of everything.
    God loves me and God is just so happy that I’m here that it doesn’t really matter what goes on. We’re all going to heaven anyway, so this is just a little social function that makes me feel like I’m a good person and like I have an identity and belong. I’m a Catholic. It doesn’t really matter what religion I am, but I AM a Cathlic and this is what we Catholics do.
    If you have a problem with any of this well then YOU are the problem. I honestly believe that most of the comments here are from shills. I believe tthe intention is to create a seemingly agreed upon by all negative image of anyone who still actually has the Faith. Those people are obnoxious. That’s the internet for you. But the internet is not reality.

  42. How troubling, and deeply sad.

    I knew two priests who left the traditional Mass. They said it every day. Perhaps sometimes several times a day. They were in a fully TLM community. There was not a single NO.

    Yet I sat with this one priest on numerous occasions and listened to his struggles. I tried to encourage him, but I was faced with the simple fact that I understood where he was coming from.

    I remember he said to me at one point, before he had notified his superiors that he was leaving, something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing) “when I leave they will blame me. They will say there is something wrong with me. It is always the fault of the one who leaves in their eyes.”

    I found that so sad. That a group of people could be so incapable of maybe looking and saying, “what did we perhaps do to make this individuals life so difficult that he would leave? Someone who spent years in the seminary studying, who came to this with great intentions, who gave up wife and children and comforts….and now, to be with us only makes his life so unhappy that he must leave.”

    Certainly, some individuals may have personal sufferings that are exacerbated, yet why are they not looked at with compassion and charity, rather than punishment? Why are they not heard?

    I do hope that the Church returns to the TLM, but I hope that when it does, God works a miracle in the hearts of those within it. Within all of our hearts.

    I hope that he makes us all more loving, charitable, compassionate and understanding. I hope that he makes us less likely to be the type to leave a nasty note on someones car about how they dress for their first visit to a TLM, but more the type to reach out in compassion to those who are misguided and do not know HOW to dress.

    I hope that he brings priests who are less close minded, less self-protective, less intent on protecting their rights and more intent on reaching out to souls.

    That was one thing this priest said to me, that the thing he could not stand the most was how it was more about protecting their rites than about people, and what could I say? In many cases, I knew he was right.

    Traditionalists have so many graces, but truth be told, we lack faith. We lack it because if we had it, we would not sit around acting as we do, but we would be so much more positive! We could see the errors but move forward in joy, not such bitterness.

    Such little faith! I joined a traddie group one time and tried to encourage them to have faith and pray for each other – I felt shunned from then on as though I had suggested something terrible! No, they just wanted to work it all out rationally – but God does not work things out through us rationally! He works things out in His way, through Faith!

    With Faith, then yes… the rationality can come. But without faith and love and hope, we are just those horrible annoying people on the internet complaining about anything but contributing nothing beautiful that inspires and lifts the soul.

    There was a saint, a Bishop of Rome I think, who was once told to bring all his treasures to his enemies, and so he went and gathered the people of the town – the poor, the sick, the lame, the cripple. He then said, “these are my treasures.”

    THESE should be the treasures. Religion was made for man, not man for religion.

    Ah, how sorry I feel for such losses that the traditionalists have unknowingly experiences! Losses of souls with gifts and talents who came to help them, but were driven away.

    Yet worst of all, how sad that traddies will never be able to set aside the ego wound that they feel when someone challenges them, and just look within.


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