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Pope Francis on Benedict’s Abdication and “Ultra-Conservatives”

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Photo credit: AFP / Alberto Pizzoli, via La Nacion.

On 3 July, the Argentine newspaper La Nacion published an interview with Pope Francis which took place on 28 June (the same day that Pope Benedict celebrated the 65th anniversary of his own priesthood). In it, Pope Francis speaks mainly of Argentine topics. Near the end, however, he comments on two important matters which are pertinent to the current situation in the Church. First, he describes how he deals with the alleged “ultra-Conservatives” in the Church; secondly, he describes the putatively “revolutionary” conduct of Pope Benedict himself.

When asked how he was getting along with the “ultra-Conservatives,” Pope Francis – without challenging this depreciative description of the ostensibly orthodox part of the prelates – claims that “they say ‘no’ to everything” in relation to his own proposed reforms. As reported by La Nacion, he more specifically says:

“They do their work, I do mine. I want an open and understanding Church which accompanies the wounded families. They say ‘no’ to everything. I continue my path without being sidetracked. I do not behead people [sic]. I never have liked it. Let me repeat: I reject conflict.” He [Pope Francis] concluded with a conspicuous smile: “You remove a nail by applying pressure upwards. Or you tranquilize them, put them to the side, when they reach retirement age.” [emphasis added]

These words used by Pope Francis here are quite stunning, since they might well have been coarsely spoken by an old sailor or by a Mafia boss, rather than by a Supreme (Merciful) Pastor of the Catholic Church. His allusion to decapitation – or the “lopping off of heads” – should not even come into the mind or mouth of a pope, much less be expressed flippantly and publicly. (Was he then thinking of ISIS?)

As to his pontifical predecessor, Pope Francis also seems to enter once more into the discussion initially raised by Archbishop Georg Gänswein with regard to the specific remaining role of Pope Benedict as a retired pope, to include a more abiding contemplative “petrine role.” Pope Francis first tersely says about Pope Benedict: “He has trouble getting around, but his head and memory are intact, perfect.”

When asked about his own opinion concerning Pope Benedict,  he says:

He was a revolutionary. In the meeting with cardinals, shortly before the March 2013 Conclave, he told us that one of us was going to be the next pope and that he did not know his name. His generosity was unparalleled. His resignation brought to light all of the Church’s problems. His resignation had nothing to do with personal issues. It was an act of government – his last act of government. [emphasis added]

These few comments, however, raise further questions and speculations as to why, then, Pope Benedict had finally chosen to resign, if not for personal reasons; and also as to how his resignation “brought to light all of the Church’s problems.” These questions were not raised in the rest of the interview, however. Does this imply, for example, that his resignation was due to an overwhelming amount of corruption among prelates which Pope Benedict was not able to limit, much less to clear out? Nonetheless, the terse comments do make it clear that Pope Francis continues to praise Pope Benedict for his abdication, and he even now calls him a “revolutionary” for having done so. Moreover, by insisting that Pope Benedict’s last act of government was his resignation, Pope Francis also seems to try to limit further speculation about Pope Benedict’s continued “petrine ministry.”

In light of such abrupt and confusing messages in this informal interview – and by way of contrast – it is encouraging to read Cardinal Carlo Caffarra’s recent limpid and warmly spoken words in Bologna about being pastoral, and about the importance of a knowledge of a fuller Catholic doctrine. As reported on 17 June by the Italian website Italia Oggi, Cardinal Caffarra said in his own former Diocese of Bologna, and at a public presentation of a book about Cardinal Giacomo Biffi (d. 2015): “a Church which is poorer in doctrine is not more pastoral, but only more ignorant.” Caffarra received, according to the report, significant spontaneous applause. Caffarra also said that such a weakening of the Church’s doctrine will make one “more subject to the powerful pressure of the moment.” The Italian website characterizes these statements of the cardinal as “a challenge to the Church of Bergoglio.” Moreover, with reference to the recently deceased Cardinal Biffi – also formerly the Cardinal-Archbishop of Bologna – Caffarra recounts that it was Biffi’s “principal responsibility” to “proclaim the splendor of truth to all – including Muslims.” The cardinal’s clear statements might also be understood  as a polite and manfully indirect comment upon the Francis pontificate.

109 thoughts on “Pope Francis on Benedict’s Abdication and “Ultra-Conservatives””

  1. Cardinal Caffarra said: “A Church which is poorer in doctrine is not more pastoral, but only more ignorant.” Nowadays this is, unfortunately, a courageous statement with Pope Francis in charge.

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    • But more like statements need to be heard from the Hierarchy. Let’s hope & pray they follow the good Cardinal’s lead.

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    • What a brilliant point by the Cardinal. That is absolutely true. But can we all put our thinking heads and think: who would benefit from an ignorant Church? Who rejoices in the abolition of Truth?

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  2. Thank you for printing this interview by Pope Francis. I read it, and was stunned with such provocative language. Words such as ultra conservative, revolutionary should make the faithful shudder and pray to hold fast to the faith.

    He exposes himself more and more with this rhetoric.

    If it were not for the sacraments and our Blessed Mother……I would RUN!

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  3. There’s no reason to be “stunned”, “shocked” or “shudder” at the Pope’s language. I forgot “shiver”. I think he was referring to forcibly removing obstinate clerics (or ignoring them) who refuse to find common ground. That’d be SSPX not the ordinary faithful who obey the Magisterium. Lopping off heads isn’t peculiar to Radical Islam – it’s a form of speech. Hyperbole.

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    • Who are these ultra conservatives? Please Pope Francis clarify?
      You ‘think” he was referring to obstinate clerics who refuse to find common ground.
      And pray tell, what is this common ground Francis is referring to?
      And who are these obstinate clerics? Cardinal Marx, Kasper?? Seriously.

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      • This [papal] vagueness is divisive and menacing. There’s definitely a Stalinesque “is he talking about me?” in there.

        “Frankly” is an ironic word in the Francis pontificate.

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        • I am trying very very hard not to let my feelings get in the way.
          But, more and more, I feel like an orphan in the Church.
          Am I ultra conservative, am I a “trad” ( whatever than means).
          am I unmerciful, judgmental all because I hold on the faith, our Lord’s Word, His teachings?

          Yes, his words are very menacing, not only to the laity, but the faithful priests, and bishops. He keeps shooting these bows over the bough as warning shots, in my opinion. It is becoming too much.

          Let us hold fast to the faith, for our Lord is with us, and that is all that truly matters.

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          • Am I ultra conservative, am I a “trad” ( whatever than means).
            am I unmerciful, judgmental all because I hold on the faith, our Lord’s Word, His teachings?

            In all seriousness, cs:

            In the modern Church, the Church that Francis has so clearly demonstrated he supports and wants:

            Yes. Yes, you are. And you are the enemy.

          • I know I am the enemy of this modern Church which seems to be trying
            to swallow up and devour the faithful laity and faithful clergy. So cunning, so devious are its ways! Such diabolical energy that has been released within the last three years,

            In all serious LB236, perhaps God has given me the graces to see this, now and is preparing me..
            God be with our Church.

          • Psalm 37:7 “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; fret not yourself over the one who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices.”

            They will come!

    • Yet another exegete comes forth to tell us what the pope really meant–based, apparently, on nothing more than wishful thinking. Do you perchance have eight more “things to know and share”?

      I think he was referring to forcibly removing obstinate clerics (or ignoring them) who refuse to find common ground.

      You “think”, do you? Well, that convinces me. What more could anyone ask than the vaporous conjectures of some anonym on the internet?

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    • That’s the problem, “I think….” But you don’t know.
      We all have to speculate who exactly he is speaking of. You say the SSPX, I say the FFI who were “regular” but still devastated because of “being obstinate”, when all they were doing is what they have always done.
      It’s not a “form of speech” when past practice says the hammer comes down on the orthodox.

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  4. I keep looking for a post on Pope Emeritus Benedict’s carte Blanche support for every thing in “FrancisChurch”. Did he not say he feels “protected” by Pope Francis?? It’s peculiar that sites like 1P5, that hold out the possibility that Francis may be an “antipope”, and subjects every word, every gesture of Francis, Benedict, cardinals, bishops to the most scrupulous analysis, have ignored Benedict’s unequivalent support for this pope who is turning out to be more of a curse than a blessing. What say you??

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        • I don’t because I don’t trust the statements attributed to him by the vatican. Sorry, can’t trust that crowd, I want to see the video of Pope Benedict actually speaking the words.

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  5. Thank you Cardinal Cafarra, for saying it so wisely and clearly: a Church which is poorer in doctrine is not more pastoral; it is only more ignorant.

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  6. At this stage it simply isn’t acceptable for anyone to consider PF as a truly elected Pontiff. His governance in Argentina should really have been enough to exclude him from going forward for such office. The election itself was not carried out according to the rules laid down by JPII & the canvassing & secret meetings beforehand should have made that conclave null & void. Every day since his election we have had to endure endless Doctrinal heresies, listen to his outright hatred for anyone trying to keep the True Faith of their fathers (including the clergy), making Modernists promotions & demoting Orthodox men, siding with the LGBT activists & those in ‘irregular’ states.

    Of course this didn’t all happen overnight – we have had fifty-five years of non-stop tearing apart of CC Doctrine, Magisterium, Tradition, Liturgy of Ages, Ten Commandments et. etc. Why cannot Canon Law deal with this imposter? It seems to have rules for everything BUT the dismissal of a fraudulent pope. Our cries for action from the Hierarchy fall on deaf ears. What is wrong & is ANYONE going to right it before it’s too late? Our Lady of Fatima HELP US.

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    • Not even getting into the fact that you can’t “lean on” a pope until he resigns, you can’t even suggest to a pope that he resigns (which they did). or you have an invalid “resignation.”

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      • Quite, but as long as no-one in the Hierarchy is going to admit that, we are lumbered with PF until be dies. Our concerns now should be who will follow him. It is absolutely necessary for the Third Secret to be revealed & probably PB is the only one that can do so, but to date he has not complied with Our Lady’s instruction on this & the Consecration of Russia. Quite extraordinary for any pope to turn his back on Our Blessed Lady!

        It is also, I believe, essential that the SSPX & Traditional Orders be regularised by Rome to avoid them having to receive faculties from NO Bishops. This would mean Tradition would be kept inviolate until a pope is elected that will discard the NO church worship & reinstate the Old Rite. It would also mean they could evangelise whole continents who have never heard or seen a Traditional priest in their lives. This must happen for the sake of souls who have been baptised by water & the Holy Ghost but have never received the full sacraments they are entitled to because of the obstinacy of two warring factions.

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  7. “I do not behead people [sic]. I never have liked it.”

    So he has has removed heads (figuratively I know, I hope) before but did not like it?

    “Let me repeat: I reject conflict.”

    This speaks of being angry inside. Those that avoid conflict let things boil over and explosions occur. It leads to psychological and passive aggressive behavior that deals with getting back at people this way or that (like his nail analogy). He would rather use indirect insults or paper sanctions to penalize instead of confronting them to the face.

    The Bishop of Rome has shown his anger in a variety of situations (he seems to react quite quickly with his emotions). It speaks of a passive aggressive and hard headed individual in situations he does not get his way. This is not a good trait for the earthly leader of the one true faith.

    He should pray and we should pray for his temper.

    “Imagine your anger to be a kind of wild beast, because it has ferocious teeth and claws, and if you don’t tame it, it will devastate all things even corrupting the soul.”
    St. John Chrysostom

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  8. “a Church which is poorer in doctrine is not more pastoral, but only more ignorant.”

    The doctrines set us apart from all heretical sects. Logical theology brings smart people into the Church to fight the culture of death.

    Because a moral and thinking person will not become a useful idiot of the State.
    Unfortunately, this is above Pope Francis’ head.

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  9. I can see the same division here between the pope and the orthodox as we see not only in our own country, but across the globe. When have we all decided that working with people of diverging views was unacceptable? When has digging on ones heels to prove fidelity to a concept/interpretation been considered faithful rather than headstrong.

    In regards to this happening in the church, there are in fact unchallengeable truths. Truths revealed over time as to what our faith is grounded on. If the pope is calling for mercy, inclusion, pastoral responses, how is that accomplished while accepting fully those truths? The pope is acting like Obama in the if they won’t agree and support me I will use executive action to do it anyway. Where is the collegiality in that statement. Conversely, one does not need to refute truths to come to those who are suffering in one form or another either.

    Have these divisions been aptly discussed in depth, not some super weekend get together which does nothing to come to an amicable solution. But the church is spread so thin with their fingers in so many pies, that I don’t think they have the time, nor the energy to actually focus on these dividing issues of faith and response. Instead we get rogue individuals who are so certain their way is the right way and the other is so wrong that nothing positive will come out that is faith filled, grounded in truth, and brings the Lord to people in a meaningful way.

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  10. The Holy Father doesn’t avoid conflict, but rather foments it. Passive aggressive is the word.

    The grinning menace.

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      • …don’t be afraid. Just look to the signs of the times and engage appropriately. God is still in charge. And, no, that doesn’t mean we should just go along with Simon-Says-Now. Translation: Maintain the state of grace as best you can and educate your children about “all” the pitfalls around them.

        It’s like that conversation one sadly must have about those who stalk children, using candy at the park or asking “innocently” for directions from a car with no handles on the inside passenger door. And despite what the neighbors may think, we need to include the seemingly “safe” Uncle Rod or cousin Billy if we’ve got those lurkers in the family tree.

        Taken in that light, this clear showing of one’s cards by Francis,, on a regular basis, is a godsend. Makes if far easier to identify a threat. He says he doesn’t like to lop off heads etc. Sounds too much like a b-grade movie where the villain blames his captive for what she forces him to do to her. But since “he” doesn’t like it, well, that absolves him from all guilt in the matter. “Look what you made me do.” After all, he doesn’t like conflict.

        Thank God we have God and that He told us to expect all manner of nonsense. To include being tossed out of the temple for sticking with Him. That’s comin’ round the corner.

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  11. More seeds of discontent sewn by the one who is supposed to be feeding the lambs and the sheep and strengthening the flock.

    I wouldn’t believe a speck of the ridiculous spin that Pope Francis and the Vatican propaganda machine tries to give to Benedict’s resignation. All I can say is, “Lord, forgive him for abandoning the flock the way he did.” It must have been something truly terrible that he was either being blackmailed with or overwhelmed by.

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    • What could be more terrible than the notion of standing before God answering for your abandonment of the papacy?

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      • Very sad end that the distinguished theologian Benedict endorsed Pope Francis and his pontificate of mercy. The Vatican is an old boys network of insiders, as is seen in the lack of confrontation to Pope Francis and his nonsense.

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  12. “… might also be understood as a polite and manfully indirect comment upon the Francis pontificate.”
    *
    I am awaiting a bishop, any bishop to make a polite and manfully direct comment upon the Francis pontificate.

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    • I have been thinking about this a lot lately.
      It is surely what we want. But is this what God wants? Perhaps what God wants is to let the Pope created his havoc. There’s a reason behind all this and on the need to know basis we do not need to know. He simply tells us to trust and do our best to counter the false teaching.

      A scripture phrase fleeted through my mind jus then: the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

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      • He simply tells us to trust and do our best to counter the false teaching. Agreed.
        *
        the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. Agreed.
        *
        Having said that you cannot say, ‘perhaps what God wants is to let the Pope created his havoc’, because God is no lover of iniquity. He allows it and still achieves his end but he does not will it nor want it. The good are purified and the unrepentant are given a chance to repent, yet if they do not repent, they as you say, are allowed to to fill their cup of iniquity and the God acts, and he will act.

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        • You are correct. It is His permissive will, but not His active will. He cannot possibly desire the chaos but perhaps allowing this chaos is the only way we will wake.
          I think too of sin being punishment for sin.

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    • Abp. Chaput even though not condemning AL, has shown up. God bless him and God has blessed his flock and shown them mercy. This of course sets him on a collision course with Pope Francis and his Exhortation. May he stand courageously and tend the LORD’s flock in his sublime name, and to be brave to oppose Pope Francis to his face for his condemnable Amoris Laetitia and other acts.
      *
      – Can the divorced and civilly-remarried receive the sacraments? – Pastoral Guidelines for Implementing #AmorisLaetitia, Archdiocese of Philadelphia, July 1, 2016 [https://thewarourtime.com/2016/07/05/can-the-divorced-and-civilly-remarried-receive-the-sacraments-pastoral-guidelines-for-implementing-amorislaetitia-archdiocese-of-philadelphia-july-1-2016/]
      – The pastoral situation of same-sex couples – Pastoral Guidelines for Implementing #AmorisLaetitia, Archdiocese of Philadelphia, July 1, 2016 [https://thewarourtime.com/2016/07/05/the-pastoral-situation-of-same-sex-couples-pastoral-guidelines-for-implementing-amorislaetitia-archdiocese-of-philadelphia-july-1-2016/]

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  13. Dear Pope Francis, Send your choice of henchman to execute the truth. Who will you choose to spill my blood? Will it be Marx, Kasper, Daneels, Schonborn, Sean, Tim or that little fella Weurl?

    Will it be someone that wears a turtleneck and jeans or someone that wears the collar and jeans?

    If your conversion costs that much bring it on, however remember that my two small children will watch this execution. Is my marriage invalid, I doubt it.

    Is dancing in the church that you visited in Argentina acceptable my answer is No. Is putting a beachball on the Altar of Christ good, my answer is No. Is not showing any reverance by a nod or generflection is acceptable again the repsonse is No. If you think that you can drive us from his Church……………….Jesus Christ’s faith your answer will again be No. As Jesus said to Judas “Whatever your plan is be quick” and as a non traditionalist Catholic only being a practising Catholic trying to follow the truth through difficulty the response is this………… No surrender.

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  14. Poor founder of the Jesuits, Ignatius de Loyola – what can he possibly think of the Jesuits he founded now?

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    • Hi Beth, just a suggestion but think of it this way, Jesus never said that he would protect to the end brotherhoods, sisterhoods, catholic universities, catholic schools, catholic hospitals, catholic newspapers, catholic cardinals, bishops, priests, laypersons or catholic online publications. Jesus said that scumbag satan will never prevail against his church. so therefore are we not witnessing the fall of everything else around us even considering whether his church is falling but his church through the promise of Jesus will not fail. Just an idea………

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  15. Having been at sea in my youth, I suppose I might be regarded as an old sailor. So I must take exception to the presumption that I speak as coarsely as the Pope or a Mafia boss.
    I’m coarse, but I’m not that coarse.

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    • It’s for the same reason that the Church ecumaniacs dialogue with non-Catholics and blabber on about how many similarities they have but then shun traditional Catholics because they won’t “open up” to “new” things and possibilities. Maybe the old saying of “my enemies enemy is my friend” applies here.

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  16. This reminds me of when Bernard Janzen interviewed Fr. Malachi Martin on one occasion, he asked him if he would be a good pope. Fr. Martin said no, he’d be “terrible”. Janzen asked why and he said because on day one, he’d fire 1/3 of all clergy. Not reassign them to cushy retirement jobs, but literally dismiss them saying “your services are no longer required” and “there is the door”. This is what needs to happen. We need a Pope Pius the XIII The Terrible (or Magnificent, depending on how you see it). The regard for “sensibilities” has to be set aside at this point in history and the reset button hit. Most clergy need to be fired. If not, Fatima predicts it will be done anyway, the hard way.

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    • In the 16th century Pope Pius IV had this atttitude and tried to clean out the Roman Curia. However, it didn’t work. There is no radical solution. How did the Cluniac Reform work in the 12 century. The Charter of the monastery was approved by Pope John XII, one of the worst popes of all, who was murdered by the husband of his lover when he was caught in bed with her. Then the Monastery was governed by three great and saintly abbots and it came to have as many as 1200 affiliated monasteries in all of Europe. Several great and holy Popes came from there, especially Pope Gregory VII. There is no short cut to radical reform nor is there any way of cleaning out the Herculean Stables by means of diverting a river. However, the reform of the Church is in its history is an extremely interesting topic. When the Church seems to be in dire straits, Providentially great reform movements arise. Someting similar happened after the Protestant revolt and also after the French Revolution. The Lord never abandons his Church, nor is the Holy Spirit asleep at the wheel.

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  17. Let the “Church of Bergoglio” collapse and perhaps its spittle-flecked, wall-eyed nutty apologists will wake up.

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  18. Of course he rejects conflict with his cheshire cat grin, just undermine from behind, no conflict necessary.

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  19. Francis Says that “He was a revolutionary. In the meeting with cardinals, shortly before the March 2013 Conclave, he told us that one of us was going to be the next pope and that he did not know his name. His generosity was unparalleled. His resignation brought to light all of the Church’s problems. His resignation had nothing to do with personal issues. It was an act of government – his last act of government” If this was truly Pope Benedict’s mind at the time of his resignation then canon 188 must seriously be considered, for there cannot be 2 Popes no matter what. Canon 188 says: “A resignation made out of grave fear that is inflicted unjustly or out of malice, substantial error, or simony is invalid by the law itself.” It would be substantial error on the part of Benedict if he sincerely believed that the Church could have two Popes at one time!!!

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    • I wouldn’t mind betting the St. Gallen Group did know the name of PB’s successor. The collective Hierarchy are to blame for not demanding that the rules left by JPII were adhered to & if they were not to call the election null & void.

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  20. Speaking of “ultra-conservatives”: Let’s see Francis do this…
    Vatican Liturgy Chief asks all priests and bishops to face east for Mass, faithful to kneel for Communion.
    Cardinal Robert Sarah, the highest authority on the topic in the Catholic Church under Pope Francis, asked all bishops and priests to adopt the ancient posture in the Mass where the priest faces the tabernacle along with the congregation, rather than facing the people. He asked that the posture be adopted by Advent of this year, which begins November 27.

    The announcement was immediately recognized by Catholic Herald deputy editor Dan Hitchens as “the biggest liturgical announcement since Benedict XVI’s 2007 motu proprio Summorum Pontificum gave greater freedom for priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass.”

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  21. Can someone confirm that the Pope really said this: He [Pope Francis] concluded with a conspicuous smile: “You remove a nail by applying pressure upwards. Or you tranquilize them, put them to the side, when they reach retirement age.”

    If he did, then this is really quite shocking. This is indeed a Mafiosi mentality. Something rather nefarious. Even for him, this would be a new low.

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    • The man is showing what kind of man he is. Or that which is is being pressured to be. Much like a nail. Not the driving force, per se, but the destructive mechanism to poke holes and provide inroads to rot the wood.

      Give thanks for his honesty.

      Having reality highlighted so that one can engage against clear threats is a good thing.

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      • There was an article that this toughness with sexual abuse was merely a ploy to get rid of those Cardinals he dislikes.
        After all he is extremely friendly with Daneels .

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        • Francis has shown himself to work by way of ploys. That’s why, for me, the more he grins, the more I distrust the man. One can judge policy by hires and fires, not by what they say or what they say they really mean.

          Francis is also a Jesuit, highly trained and savvy despite the bumbling veneer. The “bumbler” is often the perfect spy or subversion artist as one would dismiss his actions.

          But much like Our Lord warns that not all those who cry, “Lord, Lord!” will get into Heaven because the Father knows them not this pretense of “faith” followed up by evil actions and/or ill actions will not go unpunished. That mentality is Protestant, as if the pile of dung instead of being transformed will merely be covered up by a thick coating of snow. Or in this case, grins and protestations of empty mercy that denies sinners the font of grace wherein to transform their actual lives.

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  22. One advantage of Pope Francis being non confrontational is that it prevented the Synod from being as unmitigated a disaster as it could have been. Rather than ramming through the Kasper proposal as he could have done, Francis settled for passive-aggressively castigating his opponents in a homily and vaguely alluding to the Kasper proposal in a footnote

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  23. BREAKING NEWS

    Pope Francis said Thursday that the majority of the words that come “spilling” out of his mouth are invalid because most of the time he doesn’t understand that what he says is permanent.

    Reply
  24. this is both mentally conflictual, and tears at your gut. if you are truly a. Roman -catholic, you @re being led up to golgotha ,and you suddenly realize that in these times, the wood is dry. Oh what bitterness! You read t?he news of burning man and the peoples descent into he’ll. by THEIR OWN CHOICE!!!

    Reply

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