“The Synod of the Family last year, set off alarm bells for most Catholics and we saw bishops against bishops and episcopal conferences fighting other episcopal conferences, and, in all of this, we…we know that heaven has given us a warning. And in 1973, at Akita, the prophecy was made that ‘The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops” and “the priests who venerate me will be persecuted.’ Of course, this is part and parcel of our experience.”
So began a talk given last week by Fr. Linus Clovis at a gathering of pro-life leaders in Rome. Fr. Clovis is a very well-credentialed, if not widely known, leader of the international pro-life movement. From his bio on the Board of Directors page of the Population Research Institute:
Fr. Linus F Clovis is a priest of the Archdiocese of Castries, St. Lucia in the West Indies. He studied for the priesthood at the Angelicum in Rome and was ordained in 1983 by Blessed Pope John Paul II.
Fr. Clovis is a qualified teacher and holds a doctorate in Mathematics and degrees in Theology, Canon Law and Latin Literature. He has served as dean of the Arts, Science and General Studies Faculty of the Sir Arthur Lewis Community College and for seven years was principal of St. Mary’s College, St. Lucia.
He is the archdiocesan spiritual director of the Legion of Mary in St. Lucia, through which he promotes devotion to Our Lady, especially that of the Rosary, the Perpetual Help novena, and the First Friday and FirstSaturday devotions. Additionally, he has led outreaches to the neighbouring islands, and annual pilgrimages to Marian shrines in over fourteen different countries.
He is also the spiritual director of the Population Research Institute and Family Life International and a versatile speaker on pro-life issues, Scripture, Mariology and on Catholic teaching in general. Not only has he many talks and homilies on CD to his credit but he has made literary contributions to newspapers and international magazines and has published a book entitled “A Biblical Search for the Church Christ Founded.”
He is currently the Director of the Secretariat for Family and Life in the Archdiocese of Castries, which works towards reestablishing family and family life on solid Christian principles in St. Lucia. In 2003, Fr. Clovis led the resistance to the St Lucia Government’s surreptitious legalization of abortion in his Catholic island and even refused Holy Communion to the head of state for having signed abortion into law.
In his carefully-articulated talk, Fr. Clovis outlines what he sees as a prophesied crisis in the Church, one he ascribes in no small part by the Holy Father, Pope Francis himself. I’ll post the full video at the bottom, but first, I wanted to share with you some points that I transcribed. (Together, these quotes comprise a nearly complete transcript of the middle section of his talk, but some ancillary points have been left out, and the text has been broken into bullet points to accentuate those arguments of greatest emphasis.)
You will note that his criticisms of this pontificate are almost all based in Scripture and the teachings of the Church. There is nothing angry or condemnatory in his tone or manner. He speaks with confidence and concern.
- “When a bishop — a Catholic bishop — can applaud sin publicly, it causes us to tremble. But this is essentially the ‘Francis Effect.’ It’s disarming bishops and priests, especially after the Holy Father said, ‘Who am I to judge?’ I as a priest say Mass, preaching, and I make a judgment about a sin, one breaking the ten commandments, I would be condemned for judging. I would be accused of being ‘more Catholic than the pope’. There used to be a saying — rhetorical — ‘is the pope Catholic?’ That’s no longer funny.” (in reference to Dolan’s “Bravo!” comments regarding the coming out of football player Michael Sam.)
- “Obedience is owed to the pope, but the pope owes obedience to the word and the apostolic tradition. We have to obey the pope, but the pope himself must obey the written word. He must obey the tradition. He must respond to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is owed to the pope, but it is the duty of the pope to give the character of possibility to this obedience. The pope has to facilitate our obeying him, by himself being obedient to the Word of God. Pope Felix III told us, ‘an error that is not resisted is approved. A truth that is not defended is suppressed.’ So we have an obligation to resist error, and we must do everything that we can to promote the truth.”
- “Once, we have had concerns about other popes, even St. John Paul, with the things he’s done which we felt uncomfortable about, I don’t think that…Pope Francis has done anything other than disconcert us. He has literally pulled the rug from under our feet. And so, he is the, the reason, the many reasons why we are concerned. Our Lord tells us in John’s Gospel, 15th chapter, ‘If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, and I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.’ The popes are hated, and I don’t think we had a problem with that per se. We didn’t like it. But I think that I’ll be correct in saying that we prefer our popes to be hated by the world than loved by the world. Because if he’s loved by the world, it indicates that he’s speaking the language of the world. And we know that there can be no relationship, no fellowship, between light and darkness. St. Paul tells us this.”
- “The Church’s traditional enemies — and this is vocalized, articulated in Time Magazine, Rolling Stone, The Advocate, and so on — approve of him, he appeared on their front cover many times over the past two years. I came across a quote from someone who knew him in Argentina. ‘Apparently, he loves to be loved by all and please everyone, so one day he could make a speech on TV against abortion, and the next day, on the same television show, bless the pro-abortion feminists in the Plaza de Mayo; He can give a wonderful speech against the Masons and, a few hours later, be dining and drinking with them in the Rotary Club.'”
- “So, how can you make a decision about a man like this, who is everybody’s friend? Our Lord tells us, ‘Nevertheless,’ this is 12th chapter of St. John’s Gospel, ‘Nevertheless, many of the authorities believed in him, [that’s in our Lord] but for fear of the pharisees they did not confess it lest they should be put out of they synagogue, for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.’ Am I making judgment? I don’t think so. I’m quoting scripture. Where the die falls, let it rest.”
- “The Holy Father has done many controversial things, and we are concerned with the major ones, not the aberrations which come up. And the one that will go down, I suppose, to the Second Judgment, is ‘Who am I to judge.’ One of the…effects that the Holy Father does is that he takes common prejudice against Catholics, and he uses it against us. So in other words, he’s accepting what is perceived, our position to be, as if it were true. The Church does not judge persons. The Church judges actions and teachings. Even the heretics. Luther wasn’t condemned for his personal moral life. He was condemned for his teaching. His doctrine. And so with all the other heretics. Arius. It was his teaching that the Church judged. And has the authority to judge. But when the pope says, ‘Who am I to judge?’, he is giving the impression that the Church judges individuals because of who they are and…what they’re doing in their personal lives. That is for the confession.”
- “Scripture tells us very clearly in First Corinthians chapter five St. Paul is writing to the Church of Corinth because they had accepted a man among them who was guilty of immorality. And the apostle writes, ‘But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders?’ Aha! What have I to do with judging outsiders? ‘Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Drive out the wicked person from among you.’ So, how can the successor of Peter say, ‘Who am I to judge?’ without contradicting Scripture?”
- “He complains we talk too much about abortion and contraception. Well…Do we? Again, the apostle tells us ‘convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.’ So, we have an obligation to speak about those sins for which the punishment is eternal damnation in Hell. We’re talking about the salvation of souls. The Code of Canon Law ends, ‘the highest good is the salvation of souls.’ And this is why Christ founded His Church: for the salvation of souls.”
- “The ‘rabbit-gate’ affair was an insult to all Catholic mothers. Those who have…risked their lives, offered their lives, and given their lives for their children, and above all, for the Gospel.”
- “Our concern is of course for the upcoming synod and what appears to be favored to bring remarried divorcees to communion. This is going to be a serious blow to the Church and to the faithful. Because already it has caused a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. Even in my pastoral experience I’ve encountered women who’ve said…a mother, her son’s divorced, remarried, and says, ‘Well the Holy Father allows him to communion, doesn’t he? I don’t think it’s right, father, but the pope…’ We have that problem already. And we see the pattern, is is done for Humane Vitae. It’s up there in the air, and of course it’s going to…become the law. You can do it. So, we really do need to have eyes firmly fixed on heaven, beseeching heaven, to guide our bishops.”
- “There are rumors of the pastoral relaxation of Humanae Vitae….it’s not going to be contradicted, it’s not going to be deleted, it’s going to be extended. Which is so much more deadly. Because we have presented something that is evil as if it were good. And we are building this evil thing on a good foundation.”
- “We love the pope! He is our father. He is our sweet Christ on Earth. There is concern among Catholics who are confused and fearful. And we and they do not wish to criticize, or worse still, to judge the pope. But, again, we are judging not his person or his office but the results of his actions. And we’re not doing this out of indignation. Because what he is doing is the cause of our indignation. And it is a threat to our faith. And it’s a threat to the Church. And it’s a danger to the salvation of souls.”
- “So, can we judge the pope’s actions? Yes we can. We have no less a person than the apostle to the gentiles, St. Paul, writing to the Galatians. And he says, ‘But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, ‘If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” And this is what we are facing today. We have prominent cardinals taking an anti-Catholic stance on moral issues. Which we thought were settled! We have the holy father himself seeming to support them. To give his blessing to them. And what does Saint Paul said? Barnabus! St. Paul’s right-hand man was carried away by their insincerity. So many bishops — and please, God, we have many good bishops still — when they see this, they also going to be carried away, and that’s why I think the suggestion made, that we should circulate our material to the bishops, and to priests — especially to priests — is so very, very important.”
- “We have the example of history, John XXII, who taught that the blessed do not see God until after general judgment. He was opposed by the theologians of the University of Paris. By cardinals and bishops and even by kings. So these were…we have the learned, the intellectuals, the theologians, who knew what was going on and were able to oppose the pope. And of course we have those in authority, the bishops. And we have lay people as well, the kings.”
- “The Code of Canon Law also tells us that we have a right to express our opinion, in Canon 212, section 3, ‘According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess,’ — and I think in this gathering…we’re showing our knowledge, the fact that we are heads of various organizations – our competence, and our prestige — we ‘have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful…’ And this is very important. We have, in other words, to go public on this.”
- “‘Now it can be said…’ — this is written by…Melchior Cano, a famous theologian in the 16th century — ‘Now it can be said briefly that those who defend blindly and indiscriminately any judgment whatsoever of the Supreme Pontiff concerning every matter weaken the authority of the Apostolic See; they do not support it; they subvert it; they do not fortify it… . Peter has no need of our lies; he has no need of our adulation.’ In other words, we must be vigilant. We must be objective in our approach to the present crisis in the Church.”
There is a great deal more in Fr. Clovis’s presentation. I urge you to watch it and come to your own conclusions:
It seems more and more obvious that as we approach the second half of the Synod — now just five months away — that we’re left with no more room for indecision. We must choose where to stand. It is not a question — and never could be — of choosing whether to stand with or against the pope. It is a question of ensuring that we stand as close as possible to Christ, no matter who chooses to move further away from Him than we would like. Even Peter.
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” – Matthew 12:30
Wow! God bless and sustain, Fr. Clovis.
So you found a priest from …St Lucia who takes c pride in speaking againt the Pope? No news. You are waking a thin ice here..I bet we can supply the names of thousands of priests from sorry America who stand by the Pope. Thousands. One more would be Burke. We shall wait until he comes out clarifying :I was made to look as Against three Pope.I an not. It s the media.!!
Give him 2 weeks
I didn’t know truth had a nationality.
Truth, no.
Bashing either, Though it seems to come from above the ecuador line mostly.
You disrespec the Catholic Church by rejoicing and finding pleasure in the words of such a man against this or any Pope.
I find no pleasure in Fr. Clovis’ careful but insistent words, but rather a sober realization that my own concerns and that of many of my fellow Catholics are valid. I have religiously followed the papal sermons and interviews for over a year and, while on the whole I find Pope Francis’ meditations refreshing, thought-provoking and spiritually valuable, there are almost always some spontaneous papal expressions or thoughts that I find out-of-sync with a traditional, orthodox understanding of Catholicism.
Fr. Clovis’ frank talk merely confirms my instinct to be on guard and to switch my heterodoxy meter “on” when I peruse the papal sermons. That is the present challenge, and the good that can come out of it is an increased interest and study in the faith on the part of those who are watching to see if the Pope’s daily sermon will conform to what has been taught ubique, semper et ab omnibus or will contain some new doctrinal novelty.
While I always expect Pope Francis to teach what his predecessors have always taught in union with all the bishops in the world and am always edified and astounded by the beauty and perspicacity of his thought when he does, I agree with Fr. Clovis that Catholics need to bevigilant for those occasions when he strikes out on his own theological path. I think our challenge with this very lovable Pope is to seek out those very worthwhile gold nuggets in his words and actions and leave the rest.
Yeap.
Two churches. .Only one under Peter though.
The other one follows Burke? Pell? Who knows?
“spontaneous papal expressions or thoughts that I find out-of-sync with a traditional, orthodox understanding of Catholicism.”
Strange coming from the same man who welcomed the SSPX in Argentina.
Who am I to judge?
Yes, Marcelus, it is strange and confusing. That is the entire point being expressed here.
…you assume that individuals speak out as a matter of pride, Marcelus. That is presumption. And Catholics are to stand by the Catholic Faith, that is why they, in charity, are to speak up clearly whenever anyone, including the Holy Father, appears to deviate from the Faith.
This is not to judge the Pope. Absolutely not. But to counter scandal – yes. The reality that Catholics are increasingly put into this position by Church hierarchy is the true scandal. Much like it would be to place a child in the position of having to call his father’s place of employment to make continued excuses for his absence and/or disregarding of the duties of his employment/office.
Nobody “wants” to have to speak out in this way, Marcelus. Quite the contrary.
There is nothing angry or condemnatory in his tone or manner??
Are you serious?
“We love the pope! He is our father. He is our sweet Christ on Earth”
“There are RUMORS!!! of the pastoral relaxation of Humanae Vitae”
“Because what he is doing is the cause of our indignation. And it is a threat to our faith. And it’s a threat to the Church. And it’s a danger to the salvation of souls.”
“He complains we talk too much about abortion and contraception. Well…Do we?
PF mentioned that once 2 years ago, and so did Benedict. Too much?
“Obedience is owed to the pope, but…”
“The ‘rabbit-gate’ affair was an insult to all Catholic mothers. ”
“The Holy Father has done many controversial things, and we are concerned with the major ones, not the aberrations which come up. And the one that will go down, I suppose, to the Second Judgment, is ‘Who am I to judge.’”
“The Code of Canon Law also tells us that we have a right to express our opinion,
Corrrect, except he is a priest speaking about the Vicar of Christ.
And you pride yourselves in such priest?
When this goes viral, this rebelious priest will apologize.
GO to confession.
You should actually make an attempt to rebut his arguments, if you disagree with them. You’re cherry picking, then twisting.
What has this priest said that would offend Our Lord?
What has this priest said that would offend Our Lord?
Insulting his Vicar fair enough for you?
“There are RUMORS!!!!
Rumors.you gotta be kidding me. Basing a statemen . such an enlightened priest on rumors. Oh God.
Benedict:
“I always knew the questions in advance. They concerned the ordination of women, contraception, abortion. . . If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears.”
This Priest on Francis:
“He complains we talk too much about abortion and contraception. Well…Do we?
The rest, not even worth the effort.
He should be kicked out. At once.
If the Catholic Church ever focused on ridding our planet of legalized abortion, it would happen – 1.7 billion world-wide and counting. And know that Jesus has watched each and every one. “Woe to you if you do not succeed in defending life.” St. Pope JPII. Note that he didn’t say, “try.” Don’t be a goat.
“He complains we talk too much about abortion and contraception. Well…Do we?
I went years in my previous parish (a big suburban one in the midwest) without once ever hearing a word about abortion or contraception anywhere inside the church building – in homilies, catechesis, or otherwise. There was a crisis pregnancy flyer in the rack in the front narthex, but that was it.
I don’t think there’s been an abundance of talk in the Church about either of these subjects over the past five decades – quite the opposite.
“He should be kicked out. At once.”
Such sentiments are in direct contradiction to the call for mercy issued by the Holy Father. If the pope himself does not want to “kick” this priest “out,” by whose authority does one make such a statement?
SO? It is just my opinion, not the Pope’s
I not the kind to pretend to neither hold nor know the truth.
“If the pope himself does not want to “kick” this priest “out,”
The Pope does not even know who this man is.
But expect son explaining and clarification in the near future from this priest as it happens with Crd Burke after his interviews
How do you know that the pope does not even know who this man is? Assuming you are correct, do you think the Holy Father wants to kick him out?
If it is not the pope’s opinion that this priest should be kicked out, why is it your opinion that he should be kicked out?
Are you placing yourself above the pope?
In your view, exactly how does kicking a priest out of the Church show the mercy that the Holy Father is demanding of us?
It would be interesting to see your thoughts now, will all that is coming to light! You seemed quite indignant that anyone would speak out or even judge the words, actions, and fruits of the current Pope?
Big deal. Another Marcel Lefebvre. The Church has always had to deal with dissenters. Fr. Clovis wasn’t the first and won’t be the last.
How can one dissent from the Church by being faithful to her teachings?
Which teachings are we talking about? Lefebvre and the SSPX to this day still dissent from VII’s Dignitatis Humanae.
All of them.
Dignitatis Humanae deviates from the teachings of several previous pontiffs on religious liberty, perhaps most firmly expressed in Bl. Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors. You don’t have to be SSPX to see that. You only need to be able to read.
True but again nothing new under the sun. Feeneyites swear that the catechism of Pope Pius X contradicts the teaching of the Council of Florence on the fate of non-Catholics. You either believe that the Holy Ghost protects the papacy from teaching error or you end up a protestant that sifts everything from your own understanding of Tradition.
“Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he PROCLAIMS BY A DEFINITIVE ACT that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.”
Feeneyites have, theologically speaking, a legitimate argument, even if it’s one I find personally distasteful. I’d like to believe that Cantate Domino, ironclad though it may be in principle, has some room for the providence of divine mercy.
But Feeney was reconciled to the Church without being forced to recant his positions (after all, Augustine said the same things), and the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary still hold to these teachings, but are in good standing with the Church.
Pope Eugene IV wasn’t wrong about the necessity of baptism or membership in the Church for salvation. Neither was Boniface VIII. It’s as simple as John 3:5, or John 6:48ff.
I personally don’t know how to reconcile those conflicts (as I understand them) but I haven’t read Pius X’s catechism. But arguing about what baptism truly entails based on intention (and remember, we can sin by intention but not commission and be saved by intention if we make a perfect act of contrition but die before confession) is not the same thing as flatly contradicting Christ’s teaching on the sixth commandment, subverting the primacy of God as the obligation of man’s love, questioning the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, making it possible for forces set on regularizing sacrilegious communions to gain power and sway, arguing against the conversion of those outside the Church as unnecessary, giving the appearance of at least some degree of sanction to those living in the sin of sodomy, etc. etc., ad nauseam.
These are different times we’re living in. This isn’t nuance or evolution of doctrine. It’s all but flat out contradiction.
Fair enough but I just disagree profoundly that we’re somehow living in different times. If you can reconcile Cantate Domino with the letter of the Holy Office under Pius XII or the Catechism of Pius X then you can certainly reconcile the teachings of Pope Francis with Tradition.
And we haven’t even waded into the issues surrounding torture, usury, slavery, etc.
Grácias por ponerse la camiseta, boludo mio. ¡Hagan lío!
Lastima das nabo. Habla en ingles que no te entiende
Bajá un cambio, mi pendejo.
hablas ingles? mandate
¿Quién soy yo para hablar ingles, pendejito querido?
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SSPX had the humility to ask for the help of Crdl Bergolio and gladly accepted his hand and that of Crdl Poli.
You have no idea.
Go to confession, you or anyone supporting this “man” should do that
The help the Society asked for is that of the lawful acknowledgement that they are Catholic, Marcelus. And in all justice, the Society is Catholic. So whereas it was kind of Cardinal Poli to do as he did, it was also just that he corresponded in such a way.
Such liberal Pope and bishop should have turned then down. How do you explain that?
Bergoglio you are taking about here.
Marcelus: This is not a contest between liberal and conservative. This is the reality that Catholics are called to promote, support, spread the truth – the Catholic Faith.
It was just for Cardinal Poli to state the Society is Catholic. They are.
But the intimation that the heresy sprouting from the Rhine is theology that is done on one’s knees – while not an outright endorsement – is no condemnation of what – sorry – is a burgeoning heresy.
The order of the day here, in my view, seems to be a hierarchy that takes the devil’s taunt and jumps off the cliff because they know Christ has promised to stand by His Church. But what I see, sorry, is continued presumption that allowing heresy in for fear of schism is causing precisely what is feared.
You may not agree. And that is your prerogative. Ascribing joy at such a position as mine and/or attempting to label it as somehow unfaithful or mean spirited, however, is a complete unsubstantiated leap.
God bless you and let us pray that the Pope navigates through temptation successfully. The higher up one is, the larger the temptation and the more what one says matters. I do not envy PF.
Thank you for your answer.
We agree on the SSPX.
ANd about the Rhine, I do not know. that was a moment in time and PF said Kasper’s report or whatever it was had 4 beautiful chapters on family.
WHich when it came out, I was surprised to find out even traditionalist authors said they were very well constructed , and one last that dealt with what to do with the divorced.
I do consider Kasper and the rest to be on the heretical side, maybe as much more during these lasts months , openly now.
Do not forget, he wrote Jesus the Christ back in 76 and later, was made a Cardinal by St JP2.Most of his stuff is in that book.
The problem may lay in Germany now,.
Now the Pope has said openly:
Communion for divorced: No. He wants them back in Church life, so he said. Reintegrate them. Probably lifting some godparenting ban or so.
SSM: It did not even cross our minds,
ABortion: There are lots of statements.
Those are hot issues, in particular for the 1st world.
And thank you for your patience . You are most kind
You are correct, in my view, in questioning the prudence of previous Popes in elevating those who were already toying with the deconstruction of scripture. Absolutely correct in my view. There were truly bad management decisions made all around and those “shepherds” have born rotted fruit – thanks to lovely books that toy with “could be” “don’t know” “impossible” and/or “just a myth – hahah” theology.
That is precisely why I do not see Fr. Clovis’s assertions being made against PF, per se, but rather I see father’s statements as a necessary counter and/or line-drawing to a Vatican diplomatic policy gone awry. Appeasement and/or looking the other way to keep “everybody” happy has to end somewhere. (I’ve no doubt there was pressure brought to bear on other Popes when it came to who would be and who would not be elevated to certain positions. Compromise is the word and everyone seems to be effected… only the degree is in question.)
Sadly, at this time in history, Francis seems to be the one in the hot-seat. Matters have come so far, especially with that which was entertained at the October Synods, that faithful must speak up. Especially when loose statements are given on a regular basis, statements that for all intents and purposes seem to promise that which cannot be delivered.
The Holy Father has said that he has been blessed with a certain oblivion. If this is so, then it is even more important for the faithful to speak out clearly and often as to what is being said and the potential damage that is clearly being done. For meaning well and doing well are, despite what we’d like, different things.
Again, prayers for him. And thank you too for your patience.
Well, if you’re supporting Kasper, it is easy to see where you’re coming from and I won’t bother wasting my breath reading what you have to say or responding to it.
KAsper??
Not at all.
Where “I come from” Kasper does not exist and is not widely known, nor are any trad bishops.other than SSPX.
So like those in the 1st world siding with this and that part , are completely foreing to the huge majority of the RCC.
Let me tell you if you care about sticking your head out of the hole:
So you seem to acknowledge 2 sectors in the RCC ? or whatever it may please you to call them.
Yours and Kasper’s or the German’s.And please do not give me the “oh I hold the truth and the rest do not ” line.
Indeed those are two very small extremes of the Church which goes right thru the middle.
There are 3 “Churches”. Only mention this in this manner since you bring sectors up:
Politically speaking (not talking about doctrine here):
1) The rich Church of the first world,, traditionalists likely
2)The liberal church of Europeans particularly Germans.
3) THe Church of the 3rd world. the majority by far, from there the Pope comes .
The first 2, as rich churches, do have some media exposure, though numerically , they are limited to a 10% each I’d say? a minority in any case.Engaged in a struggle that espectators from the “3rd Church” watch in amazement.-
The 3rd world church (Latam where 50% of the RCC resides and remaining smaller churches in Africa and Asia), not doctrinally or politically far from the first, however is extremely strange to the expectations and forms of the 1st.
The 3rd world is now in charge, politicaly speaking. And it will be so for the years to come it looks, since the Cardinals that are named are from that region mostly, Just look at the way the college of Cardinals is being “stacked”.
As I have said before, there are no traditionalists order in Latin America except for the FSSP in Mexico and Colombia I think. It is hard for a priest used to traditional forms, requirements and liturgy to attend to the needs of the poor churches of the 3rd world where even a candle is hard to come by. Much less vestments, music and I suppose the latin laguage,. Whereas the other way around is perfectly possible.I know many priests in the first world come from the 3rd.
Other than that, you have the SSPX anywhere down here.And run from Argentina.
Dear Steve. I too had similar definitive thoughts on D.H. but reading Fr Harrison at the Roman Theological Forum and his summary of his work on DH now makes me think that the council was correct and that D.H. is a legitimate development.
Of course, we can see the confusing consequences of that document on the part of the willful but the document itself appears to be orthodox
Absolutely agree. There are far more than SSPX finding fault with many of the Second Vatican Council documents and it’s not hard to see where they deviate from fundamental Church teaching. Holland closing down 3,000 parishes because of those documents saying all churches are equal and so they didn’t bother to evangelise.
True but again nothing new under the sun. Feeneyites swear that the catechism of Pope Pius X contradicts the teaching of the Council of Florence on the fate of non-Catholics. You either believe that the Holy Ghost protects the papacy from teaching error or you end up a protestant that sifts everything from your own understanding of Tradition.
Pope Bashing=Church teaching.
Good
Pope bashing – you’ve got to be kidding. I have never heard anyone do more bashing than this Pope has done of nuns, priests, laity. No one has been spared except himself. Give me a break. The Church has been in turmoil since he was elected and we’re going down the drain fast or hadn’t you noticed? Mind you, from all reports, the Church has been in a bad state in Argentina ever since he was a Cardinal there. Good on Fr Clovis for having the gumption to say it as it is and as many Catholics perceive it is …
Wow. the Church in Argentina you are familiar with….oh Google..
Thank you again for engaging in logic, Steve.
Willard, ML had at least what it took, right or wrong , to stand his ground, and endure the consequenses. And I do not think he ever openly insulted a Pope evenn if he disagreedwith them.
This man, I think thought he was speaking in the bathroom or something.
Sad to see such a man speak like that about his “sweet Christ on earth”, Should wash his mouth before quoting ST Catherine.
Even Crdl Burke went back and clarified every time he went of rails.
It seems safe to say that Fr. Clovis knew that making this kind of unambiguous statement is bound to have negative consequences for him personally. He has essentially placed his neck directly over the chopping block; at the very least, I can’t imagine him being allowed to speak like this again without losing his faculties. Or does Archbishop Rivas have his back? Either way, he felt compelled to speak up, and my hat is off to him.
If this is to amount to something, it must reach as many diocesan priests as possible, as Fr. Clovis himself mentions. I’d be interested in knowing what “material” he is referring to specifically. If he has material to share, there are a dozen or more blogs willing to help him get the word out.
I hope it does amount to the most severe penalty possiblle. We, as faithfull , no matter what you think inside your head about the VICAR OF CHRIST!!! (you are talking about the Pope here, not a Cardinal this or that-), we mus make sure this goes viral. I wil do my share believe me.
And I am no liberal for the record.
Various Marian prophesies compel us to believe that the Church will have people in leadership who will do much to harm it. We have previous popes as examples. Can it not be the case that we must criticize the pope like St. Paul, St. Catherine of Sienna, and St. Athanasius did? It hurts the church greatly to not speak the truth.
Interesting you bring up St Catherine!!
Sweet Chris on earth she called her Pope IN PUBLIC!!!
Privately she wrote to him differently.PRIVATELY!
“Various Marian prophesies compel us to believe that the Church will have people in leadership who will do much to harm it.”
So it is fair then to assume Our Lady mentioned Pope Francis according to this “priest” and yourself and gives a green light for bashing.
I mentioned St. Paul as well as St. Athanasius, who spoke publicly.
It’s fair to assume that we are living in the time Mary spoke about, considering how much more frequent her messages have become. The media response to the pope is telling.
So you are right then.
It is an evil Pope.
That isn’t what I said at all. I said there will come a time when those higher ups in the Church will lead many astray. That doesn’t mean their intention is evil, only that their actions and words will lead many astray. I don’t know what is in their hearts, nor do I presume to know. The “who am I to judge” statement has lead some astray. I’m a seminarian and I’ve had to hear multiple people use it as a defense of all sorts of evil. Every person is fit to judge good and evil actions because the law is written on their hearts.
Oh well.
I am argentinian.
I could tell you about that WAITJ but it would not make a difference to you
“if a person is gay and seeks the Lord in good will WAITJ?”
Refers to the actions, not the person.Does not mean approval.
We use it all the time.
But….
ANYONE can seek the Lord. Acceptance by the Church is a whole other and different thing.
finally:
“I’m a seminarian..” and you expect my limited level of knowledge to be anywhere near yours? Hey that is cheating!! Kidding!!
.Good for you and all of us. Thank you. God bless you.
God bless you.
“I don’t know what is in their hearts, nor do I presume to know.” In other words, you are saying: “Who am I to judge?” You say this as a preface to intimating that the Pope has led people astray by saying “Who am I to judge?” Irony much?
Saying I can’t read men’s hearts isn’t the same as saying I can’t judge right from wrong.
And upon what grounds do you suppose that Pope Francis meant anything different from you with his identical sentiment?
I think the context, which is a question about what he thought about gay priests, is what caused the problem. Anyone who identifies as “gay,” or in other words, has deep seated homosexual desires, and still pursues the priesthood and even accepts being ordained has committed an objective sin, which is disobedience. The very vow he takes is wrong. In that regard a person may judge the action.
PRIVATELY
….are you opposed to making public excuses for the Holy Father? One would certainly do as much if one’s father made a public spectacle of himself, making erroneous statements that cause scandal to the family and those outside the family.
Could be that we could all state, the Holy Father is indeed tasked with navigating through this crisis, but Cardinal Kasper is advocating heresy, not doing theology on his knees.
That would be acknowledging the Pope’s tricky position while at the same time correcting error.
“are you opposed to making public excuses for the Holy Father? One would certainly do as much if one’s father made a public spectacle of himself”
Could it be you then assume the HF is stating a show or v making a Fool of himself?
That is just it. take As you will but my guess? The vast majority of the RCC will not agree with you on that.
Which leads is to what or who entitles to judge the Pope!!
I understand it is only logical, I was not born yesterday , there is no way on earth your side you ever express up b to a certain degree or mere toleration instead of v the love you have been mandated for v the HF. But few are the ones, must include this man from St Lucia then who date speak his hate with clear words. Let’s hope he does not backtrack. Like Crdl Burke
….it is not a matter of whether or not the vast majority agrees, Marcelus. Catholics follow the Faith. Please, also, stop asserting that judging the actions of a Pope is the same as judging the man. It isn’t you know.
But that could be why you misinterpret Cardinal Burke’s clarifying his statements for the benefit of those who would go off half cocked in believing he is setting himself up as the Holy Father’s judge as backtracking.
Try reading what people are posting instead of telling them what they are saying/doing. You may as well post back and forth with yourself if that is your method of engagement.
Your a moron who seems to be fine with causing dissent and spreading ignorance – We are supposed to love the Pope and defend him, that is true. HOWEVER, when the Pope goes against CHURCH TEACHINGS (Doctrine), he is no longer acting in the place of our Lord. Therefore, we are OBLIGATED to speak up (Promoting Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc). This is all in the Catholic Catechesis, which is part of every Catholic’s education on the faith.
Pope Francis, quite frankly, either needs to get better at speaking CLEARLY or take a FIRM stand for what he believes. Right now, there is a lot of confusion regarding him and all it’s doing is splitting the Church.
You should not follow Holy Father blindly (Letting Transexuals into the church, his other controversial actions), to do so will lead to the destruction of the Church. What if he accepts homosexuals as priests? What about bestiality? Such things are against everything we believe, and if you don’t question the Pope, such things will come to pass.
Your no ‘Radical Catholic’, your an ignorant fool – A sheep in the highest sense if you follow the Pope without question. Are loyalty is to GOD and HIS commandments about ANYTHING the Pope does or says. The Pope should be in line with God, so there isn’t normally an issue, but when he isn’t (His controversial actions), then there is a problem.
Well it was bound to happen. I knew the insults would come by sooner or later.
I should but will not answer you VB in the same way even more taking advantage of the fact that you seen to be a woman.
PFPF promoting abortion SSM?
Check your pills.
Goes to prove my point .
Not only the Pope but everyone else finds insult and hatred coming from the likes of you.
Thank God you are what? 6% of the church?
So we got you on one end and on the other the Germans Kasper and the rest.
The remaining 80% will stand by Peter.
Really now? I doubt Peter would be very happy at the state of things these days. The point I was trying to make, before I got very angry, was that Pope Francis needs to speak more clearly, or take a firm stand in what he believes in. The news media has gone crazy over him, and many believe Pope Francis now condones the actions of homo-and transsexuals. I acknowledge that Pope Francis might not be for any of these things and that he may very well be against things such as abortion and the like as a true Catholic should be, but with the way he has spoken previously, it might as well be interpreted that he is for such things if he doesn’t keep a firmer grip on his words.
I apologize for my words earlier, I’m on edge with everything that has been happening – But you should also mind, that not everyone against the Pope is ‘bashing’ him, I for one, love our Holy Father, but I’m also very concerned. I just think more people need to speak up, as blind faith towards a single man (When not acting in the place of our Lord) can be dangerous if we follow with no thought.
Accepted-
80% of the Church will stand by Peter? Was that meant to be a joke?
In Argentina, what is the percentage of Catholics who faithfully attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation?
I can’t speak to the South American experience because it is outside my knowledge, but I can tell you that 80% of U.S. Catholics do not “stand by Peter.” The overwhelming majority of Catholics here do not even attend Mass, and of those who do, there is a large percentage of Catholics who contradict one or more major tenets/practices of the Catholic Faith.
The number of people who “stand by Peter,” that is, those who actually believe and practice the Catholic Faith in its entirety, at least here in the U.S., is closer to the 6% cited. It is a demonstrable fact that European countries are faring just as badly.
The majority of Catholics do not “stand by Peter,” and most certainly not 80% of them.
Well I am in SA and those numbers do not apply.However, and only my humble opinion:
All of us are sinners and nobody has the right to state:I fully follow and practice and THEN you may stand by Peter..” (no offense)
If so, There would be a 0% of people with a right to follow the sheppard.Standing by the Pope, and not bashing does not have to do with the level of “religous commintment” for want of a better word with the RCC.It is accepting the Pope,and loving him as commanded. And praying for him.
Of course we all must but as sinners, not a single one is entitled to say so,
We do satan’s work when we insult the Vicar of Christ.
He must be jumping with joy. Even if things may not be clear , trads bashing the Pope are helping the devil.
“I am in SA and those numbers do not apply.”
Well, where do those numbers apply? And can they apply to the Catholic Church as a whole?
You stated:
“Thank God you are what? 6% of the church? So we got you on one end and on the other the Germans Kasper and the rest. The remaining 80% will stand by Peter.”
Where did you get the idea that “the remaining 80%” of the Church “will stand by Peter”?
Is it not a demonstrable fact that the overwhelming majority of Catholics, particularly in “western countries,” do not practice and/or believe in the Catholic Faith?
DJR
Again , maybe IIam not making myself clear enough;:
“I am in SA and those numbers do not apply.”
Your numebrs do not apply I meant.
All you have to do is cross the ecuador and see for yourself
Standing by the Pope or not bashing him is not related to how ofter you go to Church I meant.
Of course, I do know non practicing catholics are a mayority nowadays and has been so for maybe a generation.
However. it is not linked to the fact that the majority of the RCC, that 80% ? love and respect the Pope.
Then you have two extremes struggling.
Now, I understand you being american may not be able to see ,precisely because you have trads or a weak NO following to call it somehow, maybe liberals, inmersed in the middle of the so called cultural wars.
Those wars do not exist everywhere and the2 sections ,neither.
AsI said, there is no significant presence of trads in Latam, and that is to say , half the RCC.
Only the SSPX everywhere and the FSPP in 2 countries if I recall.
You may ask people here, in Latam, catholics I mean, if they know who Kasper is or Burke, or Marx , you are likely to be answered asking you in which European soccer team they.
We have our own Bishops, our own battles and problems, some of which are abominable to the traditional side of the RCC, such as poverty, good or bad, within the boundaries of the Social Doctrine of the RCC or not, just like Africa.
ANd you are talking about lotsssss of catholics, More than any othe place in the world.
I cannot tell you how often I have heard Catholics say when I say gay sex is against Catholic morality…”who are you to judge?” and use pope Francis’ words about not judging to solidify their argument. NOTHING now can be said by Catholics against anything immoral without coming across that one-liner shut up comment. It is really hurting the Catholic church…
“We love the pope! He is our father. He is our sweet Christ on Earth. There is concern among Catholics who are confused and fearful. And we and they do not wish to criticize, or worse still, to judge the pope.”
Something has to be wrong with either you or this man, seriously.
Forget about the tangible love you feel for Francis
This guy got ribbon #1 in Pope bashing and then he goes saying??:
“and we and they do not wish to criticize, or worse still, to judge the pope.”
I am temptted to use a diifferent word.
None of us wish to criticize anyone if there is nothing to criticize. We would rather have the world full of people above criticism. But it is our duty and obligation to do so at various times, even if we do not wish it.
What he is saying is that he is not coming from a spirit of animosity or jealousy or hatred. He is doing it out of obligation.
You are joking right?
Obligation?
Do not tell me is also like Cdrl Burke’s “brotherly correction”.
Man , nobody is asking you or any other person in your sector to express love fro the Pope, which you should by the way as it is mandated. But that is ok.
I gues you are a layman like me. We may even afford the luxury of a little papal criticism now and then, but a priest?
“There are RUMORS!!! of the pastoral relaxation of Humanae Vitae”
“Because what he is doing is the cause of our indignation. And it is a threat to our faith. And it’s a threat to the Church. And it’s a danger to the salvation of souls.”
Please show me the love in that one for I can not find it
“The ‘rabbit-gate’ affair was an insult to all Catholic mothers. ”
Love is in the air!!
please my friend, there is no way to work this one out.
“Because what he is doing is the cause of our indignation. And it is a threat to our faith. And it’s a threat to the Church”
You say : He is doing it out of obligation??
And to think nothing has changed in the RCC in terms of teaching so far-
And nothing will. It cannot, but a wayward shepard leads many sheep astray, which he pointed out various times in the article.
It is an obligation. Would you call St. Catherine of Sienna a sinner for telling the Pope he must leave Avignon and return to Rome? Or did St. Athanasius sin when he told the pope he was teaching heresy? How about St. Paul correcting St. Peter? Do you think JPI’s teaching on contraception was correct? These things, while not capable of changing the Church’s teachings, can cause serious harm to the faithful. St. Athanasius was a bishop, as was St. Paul, and they corrected the pope. This is a work of charity.
I answered to that bellow
Correction, if necessary, which is another barrel of fish is one thing,. and from either Saints and Doctors of the Church.
Too much of it is suspicious.
Even Crdl Burke clarified each and everyone of his now famous interviews,.
I am sorry , but everytime a trad steps out of line, asis the case with this man and those defending him, we face the same reaction:
“Well, it is actually brotherly correction, remember St Paul,ST Catherine and all the rest,.”
Simple:
St Pius X
And how must the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. [Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth – 1 Jn iii, 18] When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, “si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit,” [if any one love me, he will keep my word – Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.
Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
A beautiful statement by St. Pius X. But then does St. Paul contradict the teachings of St. Pius by publicly declaring that he is in the wrong?
No need to keep going that far back,.
No way any of your arguments may clear this priest from his responsability and insulting words.
And I do hope he gets what should come to him.
Though I doubt the good Pope would mind
Do you think St. Paul’s actions are contradictory to your interpretation of St. Pius X is the question.
It is also a work of mercy. To condemn error is to expose it so that it is out in the open and one who believes it or teaches it is corrected and the error does not spread.
Take it fro a pro . St Pius X (and I know why and when it was said)
And how must the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. [Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth – 1 Jn iii, 18] When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, “si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit,” [if any one love me, he will keep my word – Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.
Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
Love the headline:
Leading Pro-Life Priest Laments “The Francis Effect”
You know, and this is being picked up by various catholic blogs and sites, just checked it, the funny thing is some of them are like editing and just going with the nice headlne and pasting two paragraphs that state nothing offensiive and the link to : read it all on OP5!
Go at it with full force then: What Francis effect? he laments and despises the POPE!! have what it takes and tell it like it is and stand by this priest
Will see how long the good Fr.will stick to this line of thought.
Are you OK with Pope Francis and his ambiguous statements?
Ambiguous-
You are assuming they are ambiguous. For a trad , I do not doubt that.
I believe he has been clear enough on topics , such as abortion SSM etc.
However, your side is constantly picking or even looking for these words to go at him.
Thing is, what makes a trad or who made a trad the “owner” of the truth, like this good man writting this pcs explains?
The Holy RCC expands far beyond the limited % of truth owning spiteful tradtidionalist, and I suppose not all are disrespectul or hateful when it comes to speaking of the Pope of fellow men-
Thank Gog I live in a Latam where 50% of the RCC resides and this “Oh I can judge you not you not me” simply does not exist,
The RCC worldwide is loves Christ and his Vicar.
That leaves the crazy german left on one side and… you on the other extreme-
Making a sport or competition out of bashing as most trads do is offensive to thee Lord himself
You are not called to judge the Pope!!You or I are insignificat next ot the Vicar of Christ. Please grow up.
Humility. is something that comes to mind in this cases.
You are in agreement theen with an insulting priest,
“If you find yourself hanging on every word Pope Francis says, simply looking for that one word, that one statement to crucify him with, remember the scribes and pharisees did that to our Lord”
I wonder – has Pope Francis officially condemned any heresies? Or perhaps it is healthier to let heresies circulate freely? Or perhaps there are no corrupted ideas spreading today? Or it is somebody else’s job to condemn heresies, not the Pope’s?
Pope condemn heresies? No, more like initiate them. It appears the only ideas our dear Pope considers corrupt are those beliefs held by orthodox Catholics.
Well there is one this priest forgot about: Pope is a heretic.
Good for you
Marcelus–I will add to to my prayer list. May God help both you and our dear Pope.
Thank you. I doubt he needs your particular prayers.
And IF by any chance we belong to the same church, doubtfully but Who knows, you may ask forgives for calling his Vicar a heretic..
Why insist on stating then? You got leaders Burke And others, we can now add this leading priest from St Lucia.
@SteveSkojec Thank you and may God continue to bless his work at your hands.
Fr. Clovis–a saint for our times! Great article Steve. This is the most uplifting article I have read in months or is it years. Fr. Clovis leaves little doubt that Pope Francis is doing much more harm than good. His very popularity condemns him. May God bless Fr. Clovis and help Pope Francis to see the error of his ways.
Now this IS a priest, a leader, for our Church.
Wow!
I cannot tell you how often I have heard Catholics say when I say gay sex is against Catholic morality…”who are you to judge?” and use pope Francis’ words about not judging to solidify their argument. NOTHING now can be said by Catholics against anything immoral without coming across that one-liner shut up comment. It is really hurting the Catholic church,
A good article, but I couldn’t read all of it. Lord, have mercy!