Born in 1977 to young parents, I grew up with a lot of that era’s music in my home. My father’s record collection had quite a range, from the Beatles to the Doobie Brothers, Chicago to Dire Straits, The Eagles to Steely Dan. If he had a David Bowie album, I don’t remember listening to it, and I listened most of what he had on vinyl or, later, cassette tape.
For me, David Bowie will forever be immortalized in his role as Jareth, the Goblin King, in the 1986 Jim Henson fantasy classic, The Labyrinth. It was a memorable film, and Bowie’s acting performance, as well as the unique brand of music he added to the movie’s few musical numbers, demanded attention. I loved him in that movie (even if I wasn’t a fan of those pants) and ever since, that role was my point of reference when encountering him in a movie (like Zoolander), a show (like Extras), or even discovering some of his very eccentric music. I could never have been classed as a David Bowie fan, but I was certainly aware of who he was and the strange breed of iconic status he once enjoyed.
Yesterday, when I heard he had died at the young age of 69, I was as surprised as anyone. As I approach 40 myself, I’m living through the time when more and more of the ubiquitous figures in my life — both personal and cultural — have passed, or are passing away. When it’s a family member or the parent of a friend, I always have some idea about who they really were and how they lived, and there’s a consolation in that whenever I come to understand that they were men or women of faith, close to God in the sacraments and in the lives that they lived.
It’s a much more ominous feeling, though, when I hear that a celebrity has died. We tend to be aware of their personal proclivities and behaviors too, but often their worst ones. Bowie was famous for living the stereotypical life of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Whether it was his flamboyant, androgynous, and obviously chemically-fueled performances as Ziggy Stardust, or his open claims of bisexuality, or any of the other excesses he was known for to even a non-devotee like me, his was not a life that would ever have been construed — from the outside — as one that courted the sanctifying grace necessary for salvation.
Perhaps I’m just morbid, but when I hear that someone like David Bowie has just died, my first impulse is to think what a horrible shock the particular judgment must be. It’s terrifying enough for me to contemplate as a believer (and sinner) who expects it; what must it be like for those who live their lives as though such a thing does not exist?
Last night as I was getting ready for bed, I found myself imagining David Bowie in Hell – which led immediately to praying quietly for his soul. Eternal rest grant unto him O Lord, and perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and all the souls of the… and here I pause. Every time. Can I say “faithful departed” about someone like this? Can I hope that maybe in his last days, unbeknownst to us, or in his final moments, unbeknownst to anyone but he and God, there was a moment of grace? Of conversion? It could be! …all the souls of the faithful departed…and all the departed (just to cover my bases) through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen.
I know what the Church teaches. I understand the necessity of Baptism and the Eucharist and Confession and lived faith and even membership in the Church for salvation.
But the idea of Hell is so awful, the reality of eternal suffering in the knowledge that you could have kept yourself from it so horrifying, I find myself fervently hating the idea that anyone, even someone as weird and as openly amoral as David Bowie, being there.
After all, I could very well wind up there too. I could never take delight — not in this life anyway — in such punishment, even knowing that it is perfectly in accord with God’s justice.
There but for the grace of God go I.
So I pray for souls like Bowie’s. I hope that God, in His infinite mercy, gave him a moment to see, to choose, to understand, as did Dismas on the cross beside Jesus, that even a life spent largely in the pursuit of vice is no impediment to final repentance.
If I love souls, it is because God loves souls, but also because I see in others the same possibility of damnation that I see in myself — and the same opportunity for eternal beatitude.
It may seem counter-intuitive, but this is why I despise the promotion of the idea of universalism, that numbing self-deception that seeks to soothe our troubled minds with a belief that all men are very likely saved. If that’s the case, why bother trying? Why not live like David Bowie? Or for that matter, like Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot? Why make sacrifices or observe meatless Fridays or live chastely or go to Mass or practice the works of mercy or spend time praying or any of a hundred other things we must do on our path to sanctification, and ultimately, heaven?
Anything that absolves us of our sense of responsibility to live our faith, or to “go forth and make disciples of all nations” or to “instruct the ignorant” or “admonish the sinner” is a damnable lie, and will surely make it that much easier for souls to fall into perdition. Any attempt after death to canonize the dead instead of pray for them, or to simply cover over the reality of the Last Things with some empty sentiment is a grave injustice to the departed. After all, God transcends time, and thus, so can our prayers. If we do not know that a soul is lost, we can pray even after their death that He gave them that final grace of repentance.
Does Hell exist? It does, without question. Are people there? Yes, though we know not who. Is David Bowie in Hell? I certainly hope not, though at this very moment, he is somewhere, and ignoring it changes nothing.
Will I go to Hell? Please God, let it never be so. But there is nothing in my life that is so worthy of being called a Son of God that I could preclude it as a possibility. I may not live a life of sex, drugs, and rock and roll, but I have a long way to go before I am even consistent in practicing virtue. So I pray for the perfection of my soul, and salvation of the souls of others — even those who gave the appearance that they never gave a damn about being damned — because we’re all in this together.
I think of religion as the rational will trying to live by that which is known by faith.
Aristotle taught (correctly) that all living things have souls, spirits (anima). It is that which makes them living, animate. Even vegetables have vegetative souls.
On man has the rational and willful soul.
To claim to be “spritual, not religious” is like saying, “I like to drive without a steering wheel.”
To make that claim is to essentially claim the birthright of a cabbage.
Religion means Bond with God and owing to the fact that God created that Bond, there has only ever been one religion.
There are innumerable false religions and as to spirituality, one can be in spiritual communion with Satan
The 2006 film “Longford” dealt with the relationship between a Christian member of the British peerage and a female serial killer.
In the film Lord Longford say his role as performing corporal works of mercy by ministering to someone in prison.
During one of his conversations with the female killer, Myra Hindley, she told him (I paraphrase), “Don’t you realize that evil is a spiritual experience too?”
The film is based on a true story.
Lord Longford was a real person, and Myra Hindley and her boyfriend were convicted of what came to be called “The Moors Murders”.
I can’t remember the source but somebody once said trying to be spiritual without being religious is like trying to speak without using any particular language.
Excellent.
I once met a young man (mid 20s) at a party who had been an agnostic/atheist but came to believe in God while studying linguistics/language.
I didn’t grasp his argument, but it had something to do with his conclusion that human language could only have a divine origin.
We know Judas is in Hell
http://tinyurl.com/ndmvp22
and IANS is pretty sure that official who said Rob Lytle of the Denver Broncos scored against the Oakland Raiders when he clearly fumbled on the three yard line in a playoff game is, or soon will be, in Hell.
I LOLed.
We do not know that Judas is in hell. The official position of the Church is that she does not know for a certainty is a given person is in hell.
True to an extent that the Church teaches we don’t know who is hell but Christ state clearly that “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” – John 17:12
Seems pretty clear… Christ knew where Judas went.
My father (earthly one) told me, as a younger girl, about predestination. The Judas story seems to bear that out. If Scripture was fulfilled via Juda’s denial, what free will did Judas ever have? That has bothered me all my life, that there was one appointed by God to deny JC. Again where was the free will in that scenario for Judas…what choice did he ever have? If in fact, he was preordained to do it.
I don’t think predestination is the correct word. Because God is all-knowing means that He knows from the beginning of time what choices each of us will make. He knew the parents of Judas would have him for a son. He knew Judas would lose his faith in Christ when the LORD gave the Bread of Life discourse (John 6:35-71). But always there was/is personal choice. The parents of Judas were not *forced* to marry and have children. Judas was not *forced* to become a disciple, nor was he forced to betray the LORD. God turns all things to good for those who love Him (paraphrased from Romans 8:28). We who love Him have been redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice. Horrible things had to fall into place or that sacrifice could not have occurred.
And yet it all happened exactly the way God planned it…hmmm. Amazing how God works. There is no freewill, only the illusion thereof. God will have His perfect work!
Au contraire mom of six…..predestination does in fact have the connotation of God knowing what the future holds for us.
pre·des·ti·na·tion
prēˌdestəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: predestination; noun: pre-destination
(as a DOCTRINE IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY) the divine foreordaining of all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others. It has been particularly associated with the TEACHINGS of St. Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin.
NOTE—I did in fact in my previous post use the word preordained and that is actually what God does..foreordain!
If you prefer Webster’s dictionary, this is what you will find.
“belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed”
Proverbs 16:3 is “pray and acknowledge God and let Him show you the path He has for you.” It is a great path. This informs me that God has chosen the path already, thus you have little to say about it.
Romans 9: 18 -22 is a favorite of Calvinists…”So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction
“Could Paul be clearer? Our salvation is entirely dependent on God’s UNCHANGEABLE WILL. The FREE WILL of which the Catholic Church speaks is SIMPLY UNBIBLICAL. Shall we all join the local Calvinist ecclesial community, then? The answer seems—predestined.
Spiritual, Not Literal, Death
“In fact, the Catholic Church agrees with the Calvinist in saying those who are “dead in trespasses and sins” do not have the power to “bring themselves back to life.” Man cannot “work up” grace or faith; these are unmerited gifts from a loving God (see Eph 2:8-9). The hundreds of millions of babies the Church has baptized should suffice to make this point obvious. How many good works has a baby done to merit anything from God?”
Mom of six, lest you think I made any of this up, check out this Catholic site….lots of great food for thought if you have a philosophical bent or religious leanings. A great quote on nations is so apropos to today’s crazy world.
“If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.” (Jer 18:7-10) Sounds like our nation is headed to Dante’s hell unless all turn around and acknowledge their portion of evil.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/predestined-for-freedom
Not sure if this answer matters to you anymore but I thought I will reply 🙂
The key point to understanding the situation of Judas (and many others in the Bible that seem to suggest a predestination to hell) is that God’s foreknowledge does not necessarily impede our free-will. God knows, in his omniscience, what we will freely choose to do in a given moment. So the words in regards to Judas would always be fulfilled in the circumstances he was in.
Now the main objection here might be that God putting Judas in this situation knowing that he will act in this way, still suggests that God predestines people to hell.
But the key point again is that this is not necessarily so.
In fact, one could argue that God has seen all the possible responses Judas would give to God putting him in various circumstances and that there was nothing in which Judas accepts God’s grace. So God hasn’t really predestined Judas to hell but only allowed him to do what he freely chooses to do. God has also taken the steps to use the evil that Judas commits to bring about good (death and resurrection of Christ).
Another person can also argue that God’s favor toward every human being is not equal. So in this view, God provides sufficient Grace for everyone to be saved. In other words, everyone receives a certain amount of Grace that if they had responded to it, they would be saved. But some freely choose to not accept those Graces and God allows them to choose hell. Those who choose to accept the Graces, God predestines them to heaven. At the same time, God chooses to give those he favors, more Grace than the sufficient Grace. So in this way, God can be said to predestine who goes to heaven.
So the position of the Catholic Church is that God predestines persons to heaven. But those who end up in hell were also given sufficient Grace to be saved. They ended up in hell through their own fault.
Calvin was wrong in that he suggested a double predestination, one to hell and one to heaven. God does not do such a thing. Furthermore, Calvin was in error for thinking that the only way to reconcile what is said in Scripture is by postulating such a double predestination. One need not do so as can be seen from the two alternate positions presented above.
Thank you for a conscientious and tender reflection, Steve. When someone as iconic and gifted like Bowie passes, it becomes a clarion call. I appreciate how your focus turns within rather than without. Of what merit can there be for those folks who choose to dwell, under the guise of witness, in the speculation of any soul’s disposition, much less consigning them to destruction. Heed the voices of our exorcists, the enemy salivates over our pride in any form. There is merit in the disciplines of our faith and doctrines, provided we don’t wear our phylacteries (sp?) on our sleeve, and parade our ritual gestures as false aesthetics before the true Creator and creation. There has to be merit in the acts of worship and charity themselves, which are “enough for me.” The catechism is, and it speaks wisely.
A friend shared this quote after reading this. I think it’s a perfect fit:
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.
All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one
or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.
There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.” – C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory
Thanks to your friend for sending this to you..and, to you, for sharing.
I believe it is “faithful departed” as opposed to “faithfully departed.”
https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/purgb3.htm
Yeah, that’s just because I make a mental typo when I say it. One of those things I probably heard wrong as a kid and it stuck with me.
I fixed it.
It always gets my goat when people say “faithfully” but I resist the urge to correct them right after praying, but this provided the perfect opportunity. 🙂 Thanks for taking it in stride.
Kinda like when I recently wrote in a column the expression “who could care less” and more than one person emailed me to (rightly) assert that the expression should in fact be “who couldn’t care less.”
Interesting. From what I’ve read American English uses “who could care less”, but English English uses “who couldn’t care less”. Myself, I use Australian English 🙂
“Something something judge not lest you be judged” Ring any bells?
“Something something read the whole thing before commenting” Ring any bells?
Actually means you have no argument frrolfe because it can only mean to the reader, “What does that have to do with the price of beans?”
Just an editorial note: The group was the Dire Straits.
Again, this is what I get for not googling things I think I already know.
Fixed it. And feeling dumb because “Dire Straights” doesn’t make any sense anyway…
I’m in dire straights right now, because I am reading this essay and comments at 2:16 AM and just had a cup of coffee.
I am 10 years older than you and have been well-acquainted with David Bowie from my youth. My daughters came to know him through “Labyrinth” and we often refer his performance in it with a strange fondness. When I heard of his passing from this life, I prayed for his soul as well – not just because he is “David Bowie” but because he is a fellow human being. Yet, I must say that I prayed with a bit more fervor because of his well-noted lifestyle. Then, upon viewing his “Lazarus” video, I prayed even harder for the man – the imagery of a man on his way to “heaven” was not serene nor uplifting. It was rather frightening and bereft of passion. The video is quite striking and Bowie doing what he does best – while on this earth, he was the ultimate showman. I could not help but compare the song and video to Johnny Cash’s “Hurt” which was his swansong and recounts his sorrow and regret for the life he had lived and his turning to Jesus. It is painful to take in, but there is comfort and hope in knowing that the man repented and believed. Back to Bowie – seeing his wife’s tweet, “The struggle is real, but so is God” gave me some comfort that somewhere, somehow God was in his life, if even through his wife. In what capacity, none of us can know and we certainly do not know what the man’s final hours were like. We can only pray and hope that he asked Jesus to remember him as did the thief on the cross. While the musician/artist is being lauded, what about the man, the person, the soul? Yeah, he made some really cool music and did some wild things, but what about him? Is anyone thinking about where he is now? Is there an assumption that he is A-ok because, well everyone goes to heaven? Well, if that is true then what is the point to Jesus’ Incarnation, Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension? What is the point of any of it? Is Jesus Just One Among Many or is He the Resurrection and the Life? Our society, our world tell us the former and even the Pope seems to be suggesting it. Well, the world will go as it will and even Popes can be flaky, but Catholics who have the Truth are duty-bound to live it and live it well. Our Lady of Fatima tells us that a multitude of souls are falling into hell like snowflakes, quietly and without notice. Will I be one of those snowflakes? I pray not, but it is as much as in my capacity as in anyone else’s, maybe even more. Even though the world may not be paying attention, Catholics (and many of our Christian brothers and sisters) know better. Keep praying for we truly are all in this together.
Always remember the blessed mother said many people go to hell because no one is praying for them. So, pray for him and pray for everyone.
Yes pray for the repose of his soul. Mother of Jesus have mercy on him and pray for his soul…
David Bowie is dead. He did not die in Sanctifying Grace. Jesus Christ already passed Judgement him, it’s done and he was not a Faithful Catholic. Pray for the Faithful Departed. Bowie chose his destination and if Christ gave him another chance Bowie would sell his soul to Satan again. Use your prayers again for Mick Jagger or Kieth Richards or the members of Motley Crew. They are the ones who need your prayers. They still have a chance to refuse Satan and amend their lives. They are still breathing. While they are still breathing they can come to the Catholic Church and Sanctify their soul. Its to late when their dead.
Our Lord is not bound by time, GtG. We are.
Please, don’t put limits on prayers or the power of God to do what we, due to our human limitations, believe impossible.
Please follow the Catholic Catechism. Its about saving your soul and other souls. Not your heresy!
Please don’t put limits on God’s ability to hear our prayers. Follow the Catechism and not your reliance upon what is 99.9999% impossible.
Nobody is saying that David Bowie will be saved, but you are not in a position to pronounce judgement. Even the Church doesn’t do that.
I’m not pronouncing Judgement on David Bowie. But we can only subject him to the teachings of Christ.. which is to live God before anything else. Do not put false idols. These are just the First of Ten Commandments. You should follow the Catechism and not evangelize a Heresy that someone can be saved outside of Time. The Catholic Church has not taught this Heresy and never will teach this Heresy. The Catechism is clear that only God can Judge on one’s fate after death. The Church has always taught to pray for the Faithful Departed. Bowie was not Faithful when he departed, he was still performing to Satan when he departed. This is fact all of Bowie’s friends who are not Faithful to Christ’s Church said so in interviews.
You are presuming you know how God views a soul and what chances He might give them at the hour of death.
Whatever the perceived likelihood of a person’s damnation based on the way they outwardly lived, we don’t know the state of their soul, the possibility of a grace of miraculous conversion (since God desires the salvation of all souls), or something else. I’ve heard stories of death bed conversions because of some small act of piety early in life which God revisited, repaying the good deed with one final chance.
The fact is, you don’t know. Stop asserting your probability analysis and pray that there was some opportunity you never would have guessed might have occurred. If we are to love souls as He does, we should desire only that they find repentance and salvation, and leave it at that. We may certainly condemn their example in life, but we should hope for their conversion before death.
What you’re doing is ugly. And I don’t want it here.
Thank you and God Bless.
GTG. I am glad you found your Caticism. God bless
God help us!
I think what GreggorytheGreat seems to be saying is that we can no longer pray that a person be saved after their death. As Catholics, we believe that at the moment of death, the destination is fixed. We can no longer hope that they repent/be saved since that is a past event after their death. There is no second choice.
The prayers for the departed are meant to be focused on releasing them from purgatory than releasing them from hell / giving them a second chance at repentance.
But you and I had the choice to pray for Bowie when he was among the living, so that he repent and be saved. I don’t know about you but I did not do that because I never even knew such a person existed till he appeared on the news recently. But I am sure many others probably prayed for him and lets hope he made a death bed conversion.
So only thing we can do now for Bowie who has passed away at this point is hope that he made it to heaven and pray and do penance to reduce his time in purgatory. In a certain sense, we as Catholics must admit that it is a bit too late to pray for his repentance.
For all of your exhortation to follow the catechism, you can only judge the objective actions of the deceased. Only God knows the soul in all its particulars and the prayers offered up for him/her in their totality. As for your manufacture of a supposed heresy of one being saved outside of time, you need to read for understanding or ask questions. We are called to judge with ‘right’ judgement, not assume to speak for others.
I’m not saying anyone can be saved out of time or indicating that one who objective looks to be destined for Hell is saved. I’m saying, “We cannot declare it to be one or the other.”
That is why, “The Catechism is clear that only God can Judge on one’s fate after death.”
So stop attempting to tell everyone where anyone is definitively. To do so is out of your purview, friend, and an objective overstep of the very Catechism you purport to uphold.
One should not speak ill of the dead. A good reason why is that only God can judge the soul. We would all do well to remember that and, in addition, recommend all in prayer.
You’ve arrogated to yourself far too much judgment. If that’s how you want to live your life, that’s on your conscience. But you need to stop doing it here. You’re bordering dangerously on trolling.
I want a discussion here, not a haranguing session.
I said my peace. I’m by far not a troll just teaching so Catechism here. God Bless. Praise Be Jesus and Mary !
Thank you- for Judging me. Perhaps you should remand your followers on this Heresy of being saved outside of time.
I look forward to your documentation of this heresy, what it was called, and when it was condemned.
Mary of Fatima said to pray for those who are living not already dead that are in Hell. So Pray for another soul who is alive today at this moment who sold their soul for fame and fortune like Mick Jagger or Madonna or Katie Perry. They do their work for Satan and his Offspring. These souls are what Our Lady of Fatima is talking about. Its too late for David Bowie his soul is gone forever.
Since we cannot judge where his soul has gone, I still say pray for him, and pray for the others, as well. If you pray for someone who cannot use the prayer, I’m sure that prayer is still used for the good. Not one of us deserves heaven, we only rely on the mercy of God. God alone knows the state of his soul, sinner that he was (and sinners that we are). To commit a mortal sin, one must be fully aware that it is a sin. I don’t like David Bowie’s music, and was uncomfortable watching him, but I cannot judge the man.
True none of us deserve Heaven but it does not give us the right to promote Heresy. Pray for people who are like David Bowie who are now alive and still have a chance to be redeemed through the Catholic Church. David Bowie has been Judged by Christ days ago. His Divine Justice is what counts in the end. That is for God. You are just wasting your prayers when they could be used for souls who Faithfully died in the Holy Catholic Church who really need them in Purgatory.
Praying for a sinner and asking God to have mercy on his soul is a heresy? Can you please find that in the Catechism and give me a link to it? I’d like to read that for myself.
CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, or immediate and everlasting damnation.
Pray for the living and those who may be purgatory. St. Paul says if you die with [unrepentant] mortal sin you will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
See 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:21
Also read 1 John 5 16-17 about praying for those in mortal sin and venial sin. “If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.”
Also I would like to address that we are sinners and that is true but too many of the modern Catholic Church uses it as a crutch. It kind of handicaps us in the spiritual life and the Spirtual Combat that we all Catholics must do to reach the finish line that St. Paul crossed when voluntarily put his head on the Chopping block. We are to be perfect as God the Father is Perfect. That is to Sin no more. Not to Sin again. This is only done with our Holy Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. She protects Her Children from Sin. She is the only one that can protect us from Sin. She say us this at Fatima. The Mother of God said to those three small children; I am the only one that can help you! What David Bowie was, was a Heathen. A Heathen is someone who rejects God and the Church, look it up, that is what it means. That name Heathen has fallen away do to the touchy feally crowd that emerged from Vatican II and promoted a spirit of Vatican II. The Truth is hard but again all of Christ’s disciples left Him and the only ones who stayed were the Apostles. The World and all those who serve Satan believe David Bowie is in Heaven. Even David Bowie was making his own judgement when he said, look up here, I’m in Heaven. Prayers are only good for those in Purgatory or who are breathing in real time. God Bless.
Perhaps the most oft-abused saying of Jesus in our time is “Judge not, lest you be judged.”
This, however, is PRECISELY where that saying is meant to be applied.
GtG, the determination of whether David Bowie–or anyone else, for that matter–has been damned is not your call to make. It is NEVER your call to make. That is reserved to God, and God alone.
Your task is to pray. Pray, that he might have been granted perfect contrition in his final hour. Pray further that if so, he might be speedily delivered from Purgatory.
Pray. Pray. Pray.
That’s what I have said. Its for God to Judge. Also we should not Judge the poor soul of David Bowie is in Heaven. That is being presumptuous also. Pray for the Faithful Departed. Faithful Departed means Faithful Catholics who are in Purgatory. It is also a Dogma of the Church, that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church not just one but a couple which are infallible which you as a Catholic must believe. The is the Pronouncements by Pope Clement V : Council of Vienna; Decree #30 1331. -excathedra. The other very clear Pronouncement of no salvation outside the Catholic Church by Pope Eugene IV: Council of Florence; Session 8. Nov. 22, 1439.- excathedra. There are more Dogma’s of the Church which are protected by the Holy Spirit. Infallible that no one can change them not even the Pope or the Magisterium of the Church. These Holy Popes made and worded it such. These Dogma’s are as Sacred as the Dogma on the Immaculate Conception. These Dogma’s also state to teach anything else is Heresy. Vatican II states that God is not confined to the Sacraments of the Holy Church but his Creation are bound to those Sacraments for Salvation. God’s does His Will not our will. I am just restating these teachings. I certainly pray increasingly as I am praying to our Holy Mother for everyone on this Blog including Steve that you will not be led astray. The Church has also cautioned against assuming an over optimistic indifferentism which an over optimistic attitude towards the eternal fate of non Catholics.
“Enter ye at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way the way that lead to destruction and many there are go in there at. ( Matt. 7:13).
How narrow is the gate and straightened the way that leads to life:and few there are that find it. (Matt. 7:14).
From the Douay- Rheims Bible. So just to remind you your task as a Catholic is to pray for the Catholic Faithful that are in Purgatory. It is also for you as a Catholic to believe 100 percent the Dogma’s of Popes Clement V and Eugene IV. Just Pray, Pray, Pray. Pray increasingly that is your task as a Catholic.
You’re preaching to the choir. We cover all these topics here. And the point I’m making is that even knowing all the teaching, my hope is for God’s mercy against all odds.
I’m going to need that. And I can only assume when someone is going around gleefully throwing out probabilities that so and so is in Hell because of how they lived, they think they aren’t going to need it.
You actually told people not to pray for Bowie because his soul is gone forever. Really? Stop.
I just pointed out to pray for the Faithful Departed and pray for the living which the Church teaches us to do. That is in the Catechism. I apologize if I caused any trauma to someone’s spirituality in any of my comments. I’m just trying to help and educate what the Catholic Church teaches. There is an attempt by some in the Church like what we seen in the Synod of the Family. A false Charity and Mercy with the Divorced and Remarried and Homosexual so called Gay Marriage receiving the Holy Eucharist. The false Mercy being that God forgives without confession and not to change from a sinful lifestyle. I had a roommate who believes that someone who died in Mortal Sin can be saved, Outside of Time. This has not been the teaching of the Catholic Church and according to the Dogma’s of the Church is Heresy. God Bless and Praise Be Jesus and Mary !
I think we’re getting things confused here. My original thought on this — and it’s one I’ve run into for a long time in my studies of Catholicism, although I am looking for something more substantive as a source on it — is this:
Since God is not bound by time, we can pray for something after the fact (not having certitude about what happened) and have a reasonable hope that our prayers might be answered in some way, since God can apply them as He wills.
The example I’m using in this instance is praying that God gave the grace of conversion to someone even after we’ve heard the news that they died. We don’t know what graces they were given, so why should we not make the request, in the hopes that it could have been applied at their hour of their death?
I don’t think about David Bowie, so I don’t pray for him. When I heard that he died, I thought about him very much, and realized that the thing that prompted me to pray was an event that was already over. So it seems reasonable to me to ask that God have given him that grace at the hour of death, since there’s nothing stopping God from hearing my prayer and doing exactly that. Whether you see this as something that transcends time, or whether you view it as a request God knew I would make, He could very well respond to such a request in that moment even though the request would not be made until a later time.
This risks digression into a conversation about time travel paradoxes. I’m not interested in that. It’s a more simple act of faith that God can hear and apply our prayers in ways that may not be immediately sensible to us. Perhaps you might call it a child like faith.
I don’t think that a person who died in mortal sin can be saved outside of time. I am suggesting that a person who was in mortal sin as they neared the hour of death could be given a grace of conversion so that they were able to have perfect contrition. I’ve heard stories of such graces. What harm does it do to ask that God offer such a grace?
Thanks Steve for your perspective on prayer. I do know and have witnessed people who have converted and were Baptised and given Last Rites just hours before their death. I will continue to pray for the Faithful Departed and leave it to God who are the Faithful Departed. Pray for the people who are living who need prayers.
Father Corapi who was well informed, said that if you know someone that committed suicide you can pray that at their last moments God can give them the graces for conversions because God is out of time and could go back at their last moments because of your prayer. So your thought is correct.
God help us!
I am just curious, have you or anyone else here ever come across a saint’s writings that told of the saint praying for the soul of an immoral person who wasn’t a practicing Catholic? And then God granted the saint a sign or some interior knowledge that his/her prayers spared that soul the punishment of hell?
St. Therese prayed for the thief and murderer Henri Pranzini to repent *before* his execution. She wrote, ” Everything led to the belief that he would die impenitent. I wanted at all costs to keep him from falling into hell, and to succeed I employed all means imaginable, feeling that of myself I could do nothing. I offered to God all the infinite merits of Our Lord.”
Later she found out Pranzini suddenly kissed Christ on the crucifix before he was guillotined. That was the sign God granted that her prayers had been answered.
Before we die, sincere repentance for any kind and number of sins is possible. However, St. Catherine of Genoa, who had mystical visions of purgatory, said when a person dies, their will is fixed permanently — for good or for bad.
In the case of a gnostic atheist like Bowie who made a blasphemous pornographic video (“The Last Day”), it doesn’t seem to make sense to pray for him, otherwise why not give him a Catholic funeral? Does it make sense to pray for someone who would not even be permitted a Catholic funeral? Can someone explain that theologically?
GtG, you’re leading yourself astray by intimating that folks on this board are saying that David Bowie is in Heaven. We are to pray and not judge souls.
That is what is happening there were comments here about God is outside of time with that God can save David Bowie outside of time. There are people like Barbara who also saw this and commented rightly telling these people this is not taught in the Catholic Church. Which Barbara is a hundred percent correct. I also pointed it out. I pointed out that fact too. The response was harsh that I was Judging on his fate which I never did. I did judge his lifestyle and all the souls he brought down while seeked his fame and fortune. I did not once say he was in Hell. I predated and continue to pray for the souls of Mick Jagger and Cher and Madonna. I offer them up to our Holy Mother the Blessed Virgin Mary that she would bring them to Her Immaculate Heart so she could present them to Christ for their Conversion to the Catholic Church that they may be saved. I did not do that with David Bowie only because he was not on my radar. When I learned of his death it was to late to pray to offer David up to our Mother. I pray for the Faithful Departed everyday which the Church teaches and always have taught but I have yet to pray for David because he is not the Faithful Departed the Catholic Church has taught us to pray for after death. That is all I was pointing out that prayers for dead are for the Faithful Departed.
GtG, enough already. We are to pray and not presume to judge souls. Similarly, we are not to castigate others who do pray for souls as being somehow intent on promoting heresy. God is not bound by time, whether you like that or not. He sees souls, prayers, etc.
As to ‘faithful departed’, those you think were faithful may not have been and may very well be in Hell. But that doesn’t mean our prayers are wasted, for it is always honoring God to turn to him in prayer.
So while you take cover in saying, “I never once said he was in Hell,” you intimate as much by telling folks NOT to pray for him.
Relax, friend. It’s okay.
I did not say he’s in Hell. There is a chance he is in Hell with a million Catholics who actually think he’s in Hell. Just as much as you should relax already. Just follow the teachings of the Church and not rest on your concepts of prayer weather you call it repose or being saved outside of time. There are others who took your comments and you never answered them. Is it because I am man? Steve did not attack me like you with a hatred. Just read your own comments to me. So just relax. There are others who questioned you and you have not answered them. Forgive me as God forgives you. This is a year of Mercy.
GtG, if Bowie is not in Hell then he can benefit from the prayers of believing Catholics. Pretty simple.
Try to understand what you are saying to others and stop encouraging others not to pray for one who so obviously was not living a life of grace. That is hatred, GtG.
If he is not in Hell. Then I have been praying for him the last two days in my prayers for the Faithful Departed. I do not have hatred, I just repeat what Dogma’s that were declared by Holy Popes. You want to know I was called a hater by Modernists liberals who believe there is a reasonable hope everyone is saved promoted by Bishop Barron. Do you believe everyone goes to Heaven?
Thank you for clarifying that David Bowie may not be in Hell. Good for you. Again, I’m just not inclined to make a call regarding the dispositions of somebody else’s soul – that’s not my job.
I’m glad you are no longer conflating the legitimate exercise of prayer and the beseeching of God’s mercy with Modernist Liberalism.
That said, if I believed that everyone went to Heaven, I wouldn’t be praying for someone, would I? In future, you may want to start with the question before making unfounded accusations of heresy.
Thank you ! God Bless !
This was a good conversation and thought-provoking discussion. It’s nice to have a place to come and kick things around with other believers. 🙂
Why do you think there is a place called Purgatory? Jesus came to die for our sins. We are to repent, ask forgiveness from Him and live. There is no reason for Purgatory. This would make the crucifixion invalid, and for nothing. He paid our sin debt. There is no such thing as Purgatory.
The Catholic Church through the teachings of Christ says there is a place called Purgatory. This teaching is protected by the Holy Spirit. There are scriptures in the Holy Bible that speaks of Purgatory. Piper you are a protestant. Just because you do not believe there is no Purgatory for the Truth is there is Purgatory wether you believe it or not. One of the greatest errors of Protestants and their false belief of just faith is needed to be saved. Christ Redeemed the world. Which means God gives us the possibility to be saved through faith and good works avoiding Sin. It takes a lot of work to have Salvation. So Piper come into the Catholic Church and get your Salvation through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church that Christ gave us through His death and Resurrection. Don’t be fooled by the Protestants that do not know what they are talking about. God Bless.
but where in the Holy Bible does it mention purgatory? i keep looking for it and cannot find it.
Seek and you shall find. You just have to try a little harder. It is there and its both in the Old Testament and New Testament.
what chapter?
Seek and you should find. Look for it. Search it. If you really love Christ you will find it.
Sin is the worst condition that has ever affected the human race. Christ through His death and Resurrection has conquered Sin and Death. We are still because of Original Sin still can sin even if we acknowledge Jesus Christ. We can still fall in sin due to temptations from Satan. We sin then need to confess these sins with a sincere motive to amend our lives and desire with God’s Grace to not ever to sin again. So the priest obsolves the person from those sins. But there is a consequence to sin that needs to be repaid to God. That is called reparation. That is to repair the damage that resulted fron that sin. There is on a soul a stain from that sin which needs to be removed because no one can enter Heaven with any stain in their soul. So one can remove that stain by making reparations. That is to make a sacrifice of some sort. You can do this while yoy are alive. Or you can die in Sanctifing Grace and the go to purgatory. Purgatory refines and purifies the soul and removes that stain of sin. Purgatory purifies the soul and makes it white as snow so that you can to Heaven. Purgatory excists like it or not.
I do think that there are some souls we can put an estimate of high probability of hell upon, but we must always put qualifiers on them. It is acceptable to say that there is an EXTREMELY high probability of Hitler being damned. The thing about Bowi is that he went out of his way to be mysterious about his exact persona. Alice Cooper was eventually exposed as a secret Catholic, and has since said that it was all just theater. To what extent Bowi was or wasn’t what he seemed will always be debated, as he managed to keep his beliefs more obscure.
but ‘purgatory’ is not real. Check the Holy Bible. Not the Catholic Bible, nor the Lutheran Bible, not the Mormon Bible, just the Holy Bible. There is not one single place/word about Purgatory. David is either up above us, or down below us.
I’ll just leave this here you judgmental pharisee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DazZAI7Vq9U
Your the Judgemental Pharisee for you have just judged me as one. Do not use Christ’s Word in vain. God Bless.
I would like to add to that cute video. Its to bad David did not open all his concerts with the Our Father and that it would have been good for him to write songs about Jesus and Mary because they would have been beautiful and it would have been beautiful for his soul too. A lost opportunity.
I couldn’t hear it well, but oh, I pray he is in at least purgatory!
Evangeline, maybe this one will work and you can hear it. – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGd-wNOq8d4
GTG this is not a cute video (sorry the original seems to have disappeared). David’s on commentary on it is fascinating to read, it was unplanned and surprised Brian May(Queen guitarist, and one of the more interesting men alive today – astrophysicist on the side!) on stage entirely. The fact that he stops in the middle of a tribute concert and leads 70000+ people plus millions watching in the Lord’s Prayer is astoundingly powerful.
Bowie was an enigma wrapped in a mystery and much of his artistic creation was him clearly “seeking”, but he is on record as stating he has an undying belief in existence of God. He also rather completely turned around a life of drugs casual sex into a completely sober faithful husband and father. A rather inspiring story actually…..
I don’t know. I hear you, but since God and eternal life is outside time, and we know praying for the dead is efficacious, we can pray for David Bowie and have some confidence it may do him good. Masses could be said for him, and we know those are efficacious as well. As many a grandmother would say, it can’t hurt.
I’m far more concerned for your salvation if you truly believe you know the fate of souls.
God save you and all of us from Hell!
Thank you for your concern but I put all my trust in the Our Holy Mother Mary who keeps me under her Mantal for her Protection from Satan and His Lies. No one has been lost who put one hundred percent trust in the Queen of Heaven. I do not put my trust in you my friend. That is what David Bowie should have done before mocking Jesus Christ of the Cross with his perversion. May God have Mercy on his poor soul. I would like to remind you that it is freewill that has to accept graces from God. People are free to reject them which David Bowie did. I attended an RCIA class yesterday and a very good Pastor pointed this out because the left in Catholic Church who liked Bowie and his music for Satan can not stand the possibility he might be in Hell. But the facts are he might be and it should be a lesson to others who want to take the road that is to fame and fortune selling your soul to Satan. Our Holy Mother Mary crushes Satan and his demons. Perhaps you should put more trust in Her than in yourself.
Don’t ever trust me. Trust Our Lord!
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.”
I will trust Mary our Mother. She will bring all Her Offspring to our Lord.
And Our Lady would tell you the same thing about her son: “do whatever he says”! God bless you brother!
Read the Glories of Mary, by St. Alphonso Liguori. Our Lady says more than that, much more. She says also more at La Salette. She also says more at Fatima! So please!
Thank you for posting this truth, keely1.
I thought the “Lazarus” video was his statement of repentance….after all, at the end he goes back into the closet.
Very clever! You may be right….
I think Davie Jones (his birth name) was baptized an Anglican. It seems he drifted away from it and drifted back, but only as the denomination has grown more liberal. It is hard to be sure; Alice Cooper, for all his seemingly deviant ways, is, in fact, a devout Catholic in private who is just a showman, “…someone has to be the bad guy, the Captain Hook.” It isn’t who he really is. To what extent Bowi was and was not what he seemed, he seemed to delight in keeping a mystery. Black Star is clearly built upon the humility that is inherent and inevitable in severe cancer treatment, but what is his conclusions in it? The only clear thing besides the humility was his enigmatic messages. It wasn’t ultimately positive, if melancholy, like Cash’s “Hurt”, but it wasn’t negative either. He was aiming for a mysterious mystical angle, to keep everyone wondering and guessing, as far as I can assess.
Bless your tender heart, Laura Y. There is only one way to God, thru Jesus…Its true we dont know David’s soul, nor if he came to Jesus during his illness…All we can do is hope he did, and leave it at that…Since there isnt anything called Purgatory, we can just hope he repented for his sins and came to the Lord.. Once the breath is gone from us, we face eternity. Either in Heaven or in Hell. There is nowhere else. I wish more ‘stars’ would get to know Jesus Christ instead of all the false idols in the world…sigh
Bowie’s final video, “Black Star” is the most satanic thing I’ve ever seen. I shouldn’t have watched it, but I hadn’t thought about Bowie since the 80s and wanted to see where he was at these days. The video is truly hellish.
I did the same thing and now I seriously think that I need to confess it. No kidding.
I had to pray and pray and pray last night after watching that thing. For any Catholic to think that “Black Star” is anything but evil makes me wonder if the Beast will have any trouble at all.
I started to watch it and had to stop. It was too creepy. I was never a Bowie fan. He always made me feel uncomfortable.
But good came of it — you are now telling others not to watch it and thereby helping them.
But the idea of Hell is so awful, the reality of eternal suffering in the knowledge that you could have kept yourself from it so horrifying.
*
This also fills me with dread: I could have been saved but now I am not. I am here because of me.
The souls in Hell are there because they want to be.
They want to be apart from God but not suffer the consequences that arise from this separation.
AB Fulton J Sheen, but do not take it out of context. You need to see or read the entire sequence.
There is the sin of presumption and then there is false humility, Steve. Aquinas and others spoke about the joy the saints in Heaven experience witnessing the plight of the damned. This teaching stops us from getting too soft, in my opinion. If I were a betting man I would say that Bowie is in Hell, but I am not a betting man.
Yes, but let’s be very clear: the Saints in Heaven rejoice because God’s Justice is shown by those who chose Hell. Even the word “plight” is deceptive. A plight might mean something that happened to them, when in fact those who are in Hell CHOOSE it.
Good points.
Great point, thanks!
Did you mean “Justice shown to those”?
Thanks again. “Plight” is the wrong word altogether. “Condition” is the word.
David Bowie (formerly Jones) was a brilliant performer and artist. He, like everybody else in those years, simply reflected the times. However, he did eventually manage to lay off the cocaine, get his personal life together, and was actually one of the longest married people in his professional world (married to the Ethiopian model Iman for more than 20 years). Whatever his background, I always felt he had a little more of a functioning moral compass than many other rockers. He also had the ability to laugh at himself, and even in his last video, there are grim shots meant to remind the viewer of his seriously bad past.
Be that as it may, I think the only thing to do is to pray for him. I am stunned by some of the comments I have seen on traditionalist or conservative sites. Just acknowledge his genius in his personal field, which many conservatives may not like anyway, and pray for him.
Acknowledge his genius? I hear this kind of thing a lot, but when it is applied to the likes of Bowie, Jagger, Madonna, and the hodge-podge legion made up of their ilk, it confounds me. Their ‘art’ not only leaves me cold, it is offensive in the extreme. In fact, I think it serves only one real purpose, that of a gauge to measure the appalling cultural degradation of the West in recent times. In a word, it is junk and real genius doesn’t create junk.
So what have you created recently?
I would not go so far to one extreme side or another as either Isabel or Johnny, because life is a totality, not a snapshot, and a person can come to recognize their faults and change to the good. It’s a simple way of saying what Paul asked all of us to do, to shake off our old self and become reborn in the new self. Being a great entertainer or creative genius in any field is not an automatic qualifier for Heaven or Hell. For example, Nietzsche, Marx, Machiavelli, Wagner, Leni Riefenstal, DW Griffith, Ayn Rand, Aldous Huxley, George Orwell, Bertrand Russell and George Bernard Shaw were all great in their respective fields, but one could argue they exhibited many anti-Christian and/or anti-Catholic views. We can respect glimmers of genius in the art of artists, but always maintain a Catholic perspective on the art and person as a whole.
But I never said Bowie was morally good, evil, or even indifferent, merely offensive, talentless, and tasteless. Like an army of his contemporaries whose warblings and antics have polluted society for too long, he was applauded by masses as tasteless as he. I know nothing much about the man’s life and care to know even less. From what I read here, he seems in recent times to have stopped performing his schtick on stage perhaps. If true, that would be to his credit at least for contributing to the improvement of the public space, but it would not necessarily involve Heaven or Hell. I don’t know and don’t care to know the disposition of his soul. That is strictly his business, none of mine.
I think you are being deceptive. Most of what you say is not a critique of these artists’ craft but their impact on society as a whole, which is a moral statement.
Craft? I think you are being very charitable.
There are objective standards in music and art and it is possible for a person to be knowledgeable about them. The person is then in a position to make a judgement on what is true art of the highest order, and what is a cheap and crude imitation. To use an analogy, it takes some expertise and experience to tell a true diamond from a fake one, but there is a difference.
Having the ability to move large crowds of people may be an indication of a great narcissist rather than a great entertainer or performer. And ‘creative genius’ may be simply self-indulgent and egotistical posturing combined with a talent for novelty.
And yes, the moral dimension comes into it at some point. You would not praise a thief and a burglar no matter how skillfully, courageously and creatively he performed his crime. And you would not praise a prostitute no matter how tastefully and elegantly she went about her business.
True art and true genius edifies and uplifts. It is defined by those attributes. It enriches society as a whole and individual persons. It does not degrade and brutalize. Nor does it appeal to the baser instincts, as so much ‘entertainment’ does in our own times.
I don’t pretend to be “an artist.” Your comment is fatuous.
LOL! If you thought I thought of you as an artist, you need to go back and re-learn the meaning of critical thinking.
I thought no such thing. In fact, I didn’t really think about you at all.
LOL! You certainly do. You responded, didn’t you?
I know it comes as a shock, but I could not care less what you think, and that was what you originally said: “If you thought I thought….” Now I see that you aren’t capable of reading straightforward English. Odd for someone who is probably an adult, but I still don’t care what you think.
Personal attacks are a mark of ill-formed consciences
You may want to get to the basics of what constitutes a “fact”, Johnny, before disparaging another person’s ability to read straightforward English ;^)
Yes, this so-called talent is a perversion – influenced by Satan, have no doubt. We know what beauty is, we know what art is, and music, and the making of things out of God’s gifts to give Him glory. In most cases of pop culture “the emperor has no clothes.” Perversion is perversion.
….and yet the Angel, Lucifer, was created the most beautiful.
That is beautiful gifts can be used for evil ends. To not acknowledge the talent/genius of Bowie is to deny the beauty of God’s creation, even if that creature uses its ‘talents’ for evil. Much like beauty in women can be and is very often used for the most profane ends.
Please.
Please yourself, Johnny. You don’t like the guy’s work. That doesn’t make him a hack.
If someone like David Bowie had been converted to the Faith, you’d have seen his ‘genius’ put to good use.
Please redux. It isn’t a question of liking “the guy’s work” or not. It is the fact that it is junk. Period. I agree with Fr. George Rutler’s assessment in Crisis magazine.
Get a clue redux.
You’ve been called out for your own obvious bias, Johnny. Deal with it minus the citation of Fr. Rutler’s assessments.
What are you, old military? Give your marching orders to someone else. Oh, and it’s not “bias”, Commander, it’s conviction.
Johnny, conviction doesn’t equal a fact. But thanks for the ad hominem. That says it all.
Bowie was a provocateur with talent. A “genius”? Whatever.
Yeah, talent. Whatever. That was the point.
Please.
…not my job to please you, accelerator.
“…everybody else in those years, simply reflected the times.”
Really? This would be news to my parents, who were not atheistic, debauched, androgynous cocaine users in the 70’s!
I lived through those times. Your parents were either perfect or out of the loop.
A presumptuous and illogical response because you do not know the truth of her parent’s existence.
Maria, I too, like your parents did none of the debauchery you mention, but fact is, the times DID overall reflect the growing demonic forces. I was having baby after baby during those years and although I had precious little time to listen to the crap music. Being a fine artist, I knew it was crap, just as modern art joined that same sick scene. I’d be a liar to say that those forces hadn’t invaded the cultural US scene and provided a downward trek into one of Dante’s layers of hell since the 60’s/70’s. Perhaps your parents were lily white and pure, but the US scene descended into a hedonistic hell that has only worsened in time.
The feminist movement followed by a man’s movement did much to bring us to the sick stance we see around us…The single mom phenom and weak sons without father figures….girls without daddies searching for love in all the wrong places in their teens trying to find that manly, protective and cherishing love which she was denied. The single moms trying to do the impossible of three jobs…that of a paying one, that of the feeding and care of children and maintaining a home.
And no one there when the kid got off the school bus at three. I know for I was one of the few women at home and had many women asking me to keep an ‘eye out for Johnny or Betty’ until she got home. From what I could see the lamebrain women thought that a job outside the house was imperative..so they could have two cars, have a pool in the backyard, buy crap frozen dinners, eat out more and buy toys. Ugh! In fact, most of the women I knew LOST out financially for they were in the red by working when all the expenses of working were tallied up!!
But hey, Uncle Sam loved it..more taxes to fuel more wars.
I learned that being a mother/homemaker is MORE than a fulltime job. And I saw many women, were not up to the challenge of it. One of my daughters graduated magna cum laude and she told me I was her inspiration to get educated and have a career. As she told me since, working outside the home is infinitely more easy and rewarding. For there you get recognition and a pay check and some guarantee of a pension..which were things I never did get. When you are married to a man/child boy who never values you, but can only criticize you, in time your lights go out. I think the latter had more of an impact on her then she realized, thus forming her choice to work outside the home.
Marie, let’s be real..it was in those times that the commie element infiltrated the church..it was during those times that Masters and Johnson did their sleazy sex studies attempting to measure a woman’s orgasm. .dear Lord help us! I always felt that it was uber demonic as God’s gift to women was being put into a research study. Something
so spiritual in nature was being analyzed insanely so. And further, diluting the beauty of sex and replacing it with perversions and porn.
Now in the US more money is put out for porn than all educational systems, K -12 and colleges and universities..truly a sick culture!
But more than anything an indictment of the real sexual natures that God gave us. So now the church has paid out over $2,000,000,000.00 for perversions against children via pedo perv priests. Those very priests went against nature by defiling God’s given plan for women and men. Eventually you find out many are misogynistic to the core. What is natural is nature and what is nature is God given..why on earth did so many ever think they could change what God himself created???
It was also during that time that drugs took sway…that ‘free sex’ was all around. Its ramifications resulting in STDs skyrocketing along with abortions. It was during that time that mad-woman, Margaret Sanger, made abortion look like a cake walk and as no offense against our creator. As I look back, movies like Grease and Dirty Dancing appear wholesome and innocent compared to the trash that followed out of the Hollywood cesspool. The roc’n roll crowd with maniacs defecating on a stage or biting a bat’s head off was the epitome of insanity, and yet, thousands paid to watch these horror shows.
Years ago I read an awesome book called The Sibling Society by Robert Bly. I recall his foretelling that adultery would appear to be child’s play in time, that sexual practices would be so outrageous as to be beyond the pale. And how the single mom phenom would have kids doing things that no previous generations would ever think of doing. And now we see it all so well..no pay for view necessary. All you need do is look at the news and in your towns to see that the collapse of another Roman time is upon us with the Vatican cheering it all on. When I attended an all female Catholic college in Detroit over 50 years ago no girl could walk on campus and even walk and hold the hand of a boyfriend. Today you can pass a campus green and see kids ‘going at it’ under the old oak tree…truly disgusting and beyond the pale. As for Marygrove College today, it has muslim students and special foot baths being installed along with their special prayer rooms, where the Queeran is read informing the moe students to take over the country and kill all unbelievers in due time…the Pope gives his imprimatur.
Sad and true.
Bowie “simply reflected the times”. No, he set the agenda. He helped to ruin what was left of Christian society. He was deeply into the occult (as stated by his first wife, whom you failed to mention). You think he had a “moral compass”? His compass pointed continually at Hell and led many others in that direction. And did you actually watch his last video? “Black Star” is not an exercise in Bowie’s “ability to laugh at himself.” It is an orgy of Luciferian imagery, complete with “Christ” sexually gyrating on the cross. Do you really want to defend this? Mary, Mother of God, have mercy on the lost soul, Isabel.
Fer Pete’s sake, did you ever see any of his contemporaries? He was a better artist and a more decent person than any of them. He wasn’t a religious figure, didn’t pretend to be one, and I don’t know why you think this enters into the religious sphere.
He was probably a “virtuous pagan,” like Virgil. And the reason he wasn’t a Christian was probably because it looked narrow, nasty and self referential, which is the fault of all of us.
The reason he wasn’t a Christian was probably because the Light came into the world but people prefer darkness.
“And the reason he wasn’t a Christian was probably because it looked narrow, nasty and self referential, which is the fault of all of us.”
Perhaps…but it may be either that no one ever taught him what Christianity really is, or they tried and he wasn’t listening. I was in that latter category for most of my adult life until God in his mercy reached down and slapped me around a little.
I’m not sure how to tell whether a person in the public eye is a decent person or not. But that doesn’t really matter; it’s between him and God. What does matter to me is the effect he or any other performer has on their audiences–do they lead them to sin and death, or to virtue and salvation? The biggest problem with popular culture today, in my view, is that almost no one cares about that any more. The arts used to be generally viewed as the Church views them, as vehicles for expression of the glory of God and the beauty of creation. For whatever reasons, Mr. Bowie was a prominent part of an entertainment culture which seems to have been taken over by the forces of evil. As many others here have said, I pray for the repose of his soul.
But we CAN judge whether a person is virtuous or not! Do his actions reflect virtue or not? His intent is God’s business but for Heaven’s sake let’s not make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear.
I did not mean to do that. I would by no means call his actions virtuous.
“…God in his mercy reached down and slapped me around a little.”
Me, too.
Well said! I would give your comment more up-votes if I could.
He violated the natural law and taught others to do the same. He was NOT a “decent person.”
Thanks for the chuckle.
I’m not going to argue if Bowie was a leader or follower. I do think that art reflects the culture and may reinforce it or reject it. For example, Dickens constantly railed against the horrors of the English Industrial Age in his writings; Beethoven and Mozart struggled against the changing whims of their societies. However, IMO, high culture produces great art; low culture produces vulgar art. it is easy to gauge what kind of society we live in by examining what kind of art it produces or rejects, taken as a whole.
[sidebar] He didn’t die suddenly therefore another grace from the LORD to amend his life. Which brings me to Bill Cosby. Ever since his past behavior came to light, and he being no longer young, I thought what a huge grace from God to him to acknowledge what he had done and amend his life in the twighlight of his life.
I agree with the point you’re making. Did you see this story that Pewsitter linked to a while back? If those videos linked to are true and he was entirely innocent it would blow my mind. Whatever the truth I know deep evil and deception exists in this world and that is why it makes sense to me that the saints delight in the suffering of the damned. Absolute, innocent and pure delight.
To the last moment there is always a chance.
Yes.
That chance is a half percent out ninety nine and a half percent he is not saved. One would have a better chance winning the 1.5 billion dollar Powerball Lottery than being saved at the moment of death. First of all one would have to have remission of all their Sins before death. Then there is the true Contrition and to do Penance. The Plenary Indulgence would only works if you are a Faithful member of the Catholic Church. So it’s really really really hard to be saved just before death. Its not impossible but highly unlikely.
If you are speaking about a person like Bowie who lived his life for Satan, I agree. But if you are speaking about the average Catholic, other Christian or even adherent of another religion, I strongly disagree. I have personally known people who have had deathbed conversions. And they sure as heck are a lot more than .5 of a percent.
It’s great. I’ve personally saw deathbed conversion and it was a Atheist but that was just one though. It is .5 percent and very rare.
“…So it’s really really really hard to be saved just before death. Its not impossible but highly unlikely.”
And yet Our Lord enjoined us in the Gospel to ask. That is why your premise that one shouldn’t bother because ‘that chance is a half percent out of ninety nine and a half percent’ is insulting.
God is honored when we ask, GtG. Asking God for mercy on behalf of another, by way of intercession, is to honor and imitate Our Lord who sacrificed and asked the Father for us. Even as the people were stepped in sin and crucifying Him.
Asking God for the seemingly impossible is to openly acknowledge that Our Lord is God and Master of All. This is not the same as presuming to tell God what He must do or advertising that we have somehow forced God’s hand despite His justice. No.
So pray. Honor God with your confidence in Him and His boundless mercy. Even if the answer to the prayer is, “No,” it still does Our Lord untold honor to beseech Him for He is the Lord.
Yes and I do that for the Faithful Departed and the lost souls living on earth for their Conversion to the Immaculate heart of Mary. That is what the Catechism calls us to do. These things outside of that should not be promoted. Steve says that I’m arrogated and perhaps I am but we have to stick to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Which I hope this blog will do and not go off on some New Age Catholicism. Where God’s Mercy just falls from the clear blue sky which is being taught by Modernist Priests and laity. I am bound to say this and these things which Steve calls ugly because of my Baptism in the Catholic Church and my renouncing of Satan and the World through that Baptism.
We can pray for anyone, GtG. Please don’t define others by way of your fears. And don’t forget that there’s more than one way to go off the right road.
I know that quite well that’s why I commented out of Charity. So everyone will be on the straight and narrow. Thank you and God Bless.
….then we should avoid the overly strict and the overly liberal. Equally. God bless you, too.
Don’t forget Cosby has not been proven guilty of anything. Just because the God-hating media says so, does not make it so. Even if he is guilty (and yes, if so should be punished) Bowie was worse— he flaunted his evil for years in a way that hurt children.
My comment wasn’t about his being guilty or not in a court of law, but that if he is before God, the women he hurt, to me he should take what has come to light as an opportunity to repent and make right, to accept and give thanks to God for such a huge grace, because those lawyers won’t help him a single bit in the next world, and before the just judge, he will have no excuse that he wasn’t given such an opportunity.
“There but for the grace of God go I.” True, but there is more to it than that. God gives everyone enough grace to save his soul. The first grace is free, says St. Augustine. Others we have to pray for, cooperate with, or someone else has to be praying for us. It is not the grace of God that is ever lacking, but it is we who can fail.
Thank you for that insight. Very true that our being born into Catholic families, or being baptized at another time later is a pure gift from God. And how sobering that even though we swim in an ocean of grace every living moment, we must cooperate with it, ask for it, and pray for it, for others. Good comment.
Very well put, Steve! It’s tricky at times to try to live a life of Holiness and virtue as Christ would have us live as Catholics without getting smug about it. Bowie misused his talent in celebrating a debauched lifestyle at times. A terrible example for young people, yet a “good” man probably in many ways. That’s the problem when people take Christ out of the picture. So prayers are definitely in order for him and so many others (think of the Golden Globes spectacle the other night) but also for each of us as well. I never want to take my salvation for granted! Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison.
Great post. I, too, am completely undeserving of my gift of time to have the opportunity for reparation of my past sins. Such reflection is sobering, indeed. St. Alphonsus Liguruori’s book, “Preparation For Holy Death,” is highly recommended as a great evangelization tool(and a great constant reminder of how unimportant and petty most things of this world are). A life changing read, if there ever was one!
Changed my life! That is exactly why I have told many people since it happened!
Beautiful article…thank you.
Excellent reflection. I always wonder about famous people going to hell when I hear of their death . . . And I always pray for them. I really only know of David Bowie from Labryinth and the Major Tom song, so I looked up his recent work, Blackstar. It is seriously disturbing and looks to be the product of a seriously disturbed mind. I think prayers are in order.
Don’t forget his role in “The Man Who Fell to Earth”. Perhaps it was somewhat prophetic in the way the main character, played by Bowie, allowed himself to be seduced away from his purpose, only to lose his entire being in a form of living hell. (The book isn’t nearly as psychedelic as the movie.)
Mr. Skojec:
Nice article. Thanks.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Excellent piece. I had the same thoughts about him as i lay in bed last night. I have actually been a Bowie fan since 1972, when i first heard the song Starman at the ripe old age of seven. I keep praying that God had mercy and took into account all the prayers that would be offered for him. David Bowie, rest in peace!
“…lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy!”
Would that we could all understand this phrase and what it implies in truth when we pray it. Maybe the there wouldn’t be a call to ‘not’ pray for this poor soul.
David Bowie brought millions of people into the drug and sex Culture. Many of those people have died in Mortal Sin. He was one of the Pied Pipers for Satan on his road to fame and fortune at the expense of all those millions of souls and God will Judge David Bowie accordingly. But that is for God. I would say it does not look good for the Pied Piper of Satan.
Right. To stress only that God is merciful and assume Bowie is saved trivializes the incredible evil that he inspired.
David Bowie was a servant to Satan. He led souls off the cliff to Hell. Like the other Pied Pipers of Satan Bowie sold his soul. Bowie never had the fear of God. Like Our Holy Mother, Mary says in Her Magnificat; God blesses those who fear Him. In his new song he judged himself as going to Heaven in all his pathetic state of his soul. It is the Catholic Faith that one needs to be Baptised, Confirmed and receive the Holy Eucharist and to die in Sanctifying Grace. We as Catholics pray this in the Catholic Creed. We do not pray no other creed. One has to be in Sanctifying Grace to go to Heaven. One could be doing all the right things as a Catholic, go to Holy Mass, pray the Holy Rosary but if you did all those things and commit one Mortal Sin and die right after before you can confess that Mortal Sin you will go to Hell for all eternity. That’s how hard it is to get to Heaven.
“Can I say ‘faithful departed’ about someone like this?”
Nothing so eloquently captures the musings of the Pharisee than does a statement like that.
The Church teaches that we generally die in the manner that we lived. Bowie was a public figure and his proclivities were very public.
His last music video Blackstar portrays a gyrating, crucified personification of Christ (as a scarecrow between two ‘thief’ scarecrows). If one’s work is any indication of the mindset of a person, logically we can deduce that this is not the work of the faithful.
Yes, after all, we are rational creatures with common sense. If we let our feelings (and modernism) take over we will not be able to save ourselves let alone understand how we and others might choose Hell.
Certainly you know clairvoyance is as anathema to our Lord as is judgement.
Who are you to shackle our Lord in whom he may convey his Mercy?
It is the work, it seems, of a deeply tormented soul. Perhaps this video is our call to prayer – almost like a spiritual suicide note. Not that we may presume that David Bowie is saved, but the visual of this last ‘gift’ of his to his fans is most assuredly a cry for help.
Those who take seriously maintaining a state of grace, must become aware of the grave need of so many poor souls who will ‘worship’ at the altar of such confusion.
To whom much is give, much is expected. To include spiritually interceding for those souls who might otherwise be lost.
But he wasn’t faithful and he expressed that in his videos and interviews. He was an Atheist. That is unfaithful.
Beyond not having direct, first-hand accounts of his personal and spiritual life, are you then to likewise shackle our Lord in whom he may convey his Mercy?
Nope, Jesus will be the Judge. My comment is just saying he is not the normal faithful by what his interviews have shown. I never said where he would be going. Just confirming that the author of the article has recognize he is different than most faithful. Atheist are not faithful unless they repent. We have no knowledge if he has.
“God transcends time and thus, so can our prayers….” This is an example of the Mercy of God. It gives me solace that After the Death of my Loved ones ( Parents, Grandparents Great Grand parents etc…) we can pray for them with a meaningful expectation that they can be saved. Again the Mercy of Our God
May I correct you just a little bit? We cannot have a meaningful expectation that they can be saved…but we can have a meaningful HOPE that God will use our prayers for their salvation.
This is a heresy be careful. The Catholic Church never has taught and even Jesus Christ has never taught that one can be saved after death through prayers. Our prayers are only good for those who are Saints, who died in Sanctifying Grace and are in Purgatory. Do not get caught up with the False Mercy which is a New Age false Christ. One can be saved outside of time is from Satan and is not Doctrine of the Catholic Church.
“This is a heresy be careful. The Catholic Church never has taught and even Jesus Christ has never taught that one can be saved after death through prayers. “
That is not what is being promoted.
If you would go back and read carefully what people have been saying, you would see that what has been stated several times is that God is not bound by time. He can use what we see as FUTURE acts to apply graces to what we see as PAST events.
But neither of those things are future or past to God, as He sees everything all at the same time.
God can be moved by prayer. This is Catholic truth. Thus, I can pray for a person who has died and ask God to save him/her even though, to us, that person’s death is “in the past.”
It’s not in the past to God.
God, seeing all the future prayers for that person, in His mercy, can apply the graces merited for that person and save his/her soul.
It’s Catholicism 101.
Everyone knows God is outside of time. But we are bound by time and Scrpiture tells us this absolute Truth. There is nothing in Scripture that the Christ says or taught anyone can be saved after death. If you do please show me. So knock yourself out. We will all find out at the Second Judgment. I pray for the faithful departed at least six times a day. The unfaithful departed that’s for God but the Church has yet to Canonize someone who was outside the Catholic Church. Unless you know a Canonized Saint outside please tell me. Again if you pray for David Bowie go right ahead. It would be nice he would appear to someone and pleads for prayers to get him out of Purgatory. If this were to happen I would be the first one to earn a Plenary Indulgence and offered for David Bowie to get out Purgatory. Read the well written book titled, ‘Purgatory’. It is a well written book with an intense depth on Saints pleading for prayers to get out of Purgatory and all of them were Catholic and considered the faithful departed. There are the Dogmas on Purgatory which has to be believed in this book. It is published by Tan and is in paperback. A must read.
Again, you’re missing the point. No one is saying anything about being “saved after death.”
What is being stated, and it is a Catholic truth, is that God can use “future” acts and apply them to the “past” in order to effect His will.
If Bowie were saved in this manner, and I concede that it would be a great difficulty, judging by the way he lived his life, it would have been BEFORE his death, not after.
The Catholic Church teaches quite clearly that what to us looks like “future” merits can be applied to events that are in the “past” for us.
This is the very reasoning used in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
The Church teaches that, due to the “future” merits of Our Lord, won for Our Lady on the cross by His death, Our Lady was preserved from original sin “BEFORE” Christ ever died.
The same could be true here, albeit the likelihood is probably remote.
Simply put, we are NOT talking about saving anyone AFTER his death; we’re talking about applying future prayers to a time BEFORE his death.
God can use future events and apply them in the past. We know that for a fact. The Immaculate Conception is a prime example of it.
Thank you for the reference to the purgatory book. I have multiple copies of it. I first read it 30 years ago.
The Immaculate Conception was a special Grace to Her and only her. This is stated in the book of, “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonso Liguory. Stating that Mary was redeemed at Her Conception for God’s plan of Redemption. It is also stated in the Dogma on the Immaculate Conception. Mary had to be pure not touched by Sin so She could be the living Ark of the Covenant to bring the Word made Flesh into the World of darkness. To apply this concept to Bowie is really sacrilege to the Immaculate Conception. The Church has always taught this can only happen to the Immaculate Conception period. Mary is the most perfect Creature created by God. More perfect than the Nine Choir of Angels. She loves Christ Her Son more that all the Angels and all of Man Kind put together. Read the book the Glories of Mary, it’s a must read and if you can get the first edition the better.
You’ve missed the point completely. Apparently, you’re incapable of understanding what is being conveyed in this thread, starting with the initial post.
It’s your concept and others personal belief that this Bowie can have an experience although it would be remote that God can save someone in the future from the past. Like Back to the Future. But it’s based on God’s action of the Redemption of Mary at the moment of Her Conception which I believe. I never was taught this in Catechism and I know of a hand full of people who teach Catechism for young adults and they have never taught this concept. Sorry. That’s why I don’t get it.
No, you’re missing the point. The point is that, to God, there is no “past” or “future.” He’s eternal.
Therefore, a prayer said now for David Bowie’s “past” conversion is not a future event for God, who sees everything all at the same time. There is no “past” or “future” involved here.
It’s quite simple.
The point: God sees “the future” and can apply merits gained at that time to “past” events. It’s the teaching of the Church. That’s how the Church explains the teaching of the Immaculate Conception, which happened BEFORE Christ died.
It’s also how the Church explains how Old Testament saints can escape the fires of hell without the Redeemer having come and died for them until, in some cases, many centuries AFTER they died.
Christ won for them the ability to obtain Heaven and escape hell, but they escaped hell before he accomplished that act.
Ask a priest you trust.
I understand that point God is eternal which means forever and ever. Amen. I understand that God has a bird’s eye view of someone’s life. Lets say David Bowies life. Like seventy mile road from start to end and that a life span God sees it all at once in realtime. Gods time. Bowie and us humans are at street level we are walking very slowly in human time so one mile would take a year. So if you could where would your prayer be in this seventy mile Road? After his death after the seventy mile point or before he dies? and where would David Bowies conversion happen on his road between the beginning point or the sixty nine mile point. Every mile equals a year of Bowies life. This would give be a better picture of what your saying.
Consider it this way. Instead of looking at Time as a line, look at it as a circle, with one end (the beginning) touching the other end (the end), and you are outside of it. Each point on the circle is a point in Time, progressing from beginning to end. That is how God sees it
God is outside of Time, so He sees all things like this: O.
The O represents everything that ever happens in Time. When you are looking at the O and you are outside of it, you can see every single event that ever happens, or happened, all at the same time.
God sees David Bowie, while living, at the same time he sees you praying, at a different part of the circle, for Bowie’s conversion.
God can… and I emphasize the word “can” … in His mercy, take the merits you might gain for David Bowie in the future (viewed as one part of the circle) and apply them in the past (viewed as a different part of the circle) to effect conversion while he is still alive.
In other words, IF David Bowie were to miraculously convert for some reason just prior to his death, it could be because God has allowed him to react to the grace of conversion won for him by you through some future act that has not occurred (in your way of existence) but that, to God, is present and known.
Whether God would do that in any particular instance, e.g., David Bowie, is a different story, but whether He can do it should not be doubted.
Did God do that in the case of David Bowie? I have no idea, but it sure doesn’t seem likely.
But could God have done it? Undoubtedly, yes.
The prayer of a just man availeth much. James 5:16.
So you are saying David Bowie converted and he has been redeemed and is in Heaven as we are in real time in the now ?
Do you see anywhere in what I wrote where I said that David Bowie converted and is in Heaven? If so, can you point it out?
This is what I said above: “Did God do that in the case of David Bowie? I have no idea, BUT IT SURE DOESN’T SEEM LIKELY.”
David Bowie was certainly redeemed. The whole human race has been redeemed. That’s Catholic dogma.
Being redeemed and being saved are two separate theological concepts.
All the people in hell have been redeemed; they have not been saved, however.
Just like being saved and being in Heaven are not necessarily the same thing. The souls in purgatory have been saved; they are not yet in Heaven.
I am one hundred percent with you on what you have just said. Thank you.
I understand your point, but I think what GtG is saying is that with the prayers applied to the conversion of David Bowie, if they were answered and the grace of salvation was offered to him, if Bowie accepted those graces wouldn’t we have heard of his conversion? If he asked for a priest or some such request, I could believe in the scenario exactly as you described it. Indeed I do believe it happens. There is just no evidence it happened in David Bowie’s case. Same for Christopher Hitchens, for whose conversion I privately offered many Masses while he was alive.
I don’t know whether we would have heard of David Bowie’s conversion. Perhaps it is not something we can know until the general judgment.
And no one stated that there was evidence for it. In fact, all the evidence points the other way.
But the opening post, from whoever posted it, merely posited the concept that this could happen. Whether it did is known to God… and to David Bowie I’m sure.
Also noted is God has seen our future acts before we were born. He also respects our free will. I prayed for a Justice on the Supreme Court and that Justice voted against God. I was disappointed and a Theologian told me after words you can pray for someone but that someone has freewill to reject Grace which is a gift from God.
Steve. PS: Both Pertinent and Potent. God Bless you and your work.
I agree that all people should be prayed for. However, since over 150,000 people die every day in the world, it seems a little unfair that millions are praying for Bowie who they know of because he publicized his evil and scandalized so many. While the other 149,999 have almost no one to pray for them.
Offer your daily sufferings and joys for “those who will die today” and you’ve covered it.
….it’s holy triage, Barbara. I do the same.
But don’t forget to offer up Our Lord’s passion for them and that of Our Lady at the same time ;6)
If I’m not mistaken once a soul has left the body there is no prayer which can save their soul. You can however pray for an early departure from Purgatory.
Don’t forget for God there is NO time. Any prayer, now, for Bowie may go towards his salvation because God in His Providence waits for prayers to be said… Always pray for the dead, no matter who, or how, or when…this is all mystery and will be revealed at the Last Judgement.
Barbara
The following is from Catholic Answers:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.
Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035)
Since souls in heaven also have no need for our prayers, only those in purgatory are helped by prayers for the dead.”
Amen !
What people have been stating in this thread, correctly, is a different thing altogether.
We can, as Catholics, pray to God to convert David Bowie (or anyone else) in the past because God sees our prayers at the same time He sees David Bowie’s, or anyone else’s, death.
He can use them, if He chooses, to effect conversion.
Whether the prayers will be effective is another story, but whether they can be effective cannot be doubted.
It’s a fact of Catholicism.
Sounds like wishful universalist thinking DJR. Can you back this up by siting chapter and verse from authoritative formal teaching from our Church?
It’s nothing of the sort.
I gave you the prime example of how God operates: the Immaculate Conception. That’s about as authoritative as it gets.
Sorry Bub – you failed the test.
Apparently I’m not the only one that flunked a test. “Citing” is spelled with a “c.” The word “siting” has a meaning totally different from what you intended. I didn’t realize I was taking any test, and so I don’t much care that I failed it.
Regardless, what I, and others, have stated is true regarding Catholic teaching on the issue.
Don’t take my word for it. Show this thread to whatever priest you trust and ask him to comment on the simple proposition:
Can God take into consideration future prayers and sacrifices to effect a person’s conversion at the present time?
If the priest understands Catholicism the way it has always been believed, like those of us who were born before Vatican II did, he will tell you in no uncertain terms that what has been stated is correct.
God can (note, “can”) use the merits of prayers and sacrifices in the future and apply them in the present to convert a person.
The fact that David Bowie’s dead now is meaningless to the equation. He wasn’t dead 10 minutes before he died. And God, being eternal, can use future merits and apply them to a soul before death.
It’s just a fact. You just don’t understand Church teaching; that’s all. Most people born post Vatican II don’t, so it’s no surprise.
Will you please stop avoiding and just Site your authoritative source for your un orthodox reply. Thanks. I’ll await. No more obfuscation por favor.
The authoritative source: Sacred Scripture and the constant teaching of the Church.
Answer the question: How did the Old Testament saints get saved from hell when there was no Redeemer yet at the point they died?
Answer that question.
Weak DJR. Please quote your authoritative sources. Don’t be so lazy.
Wait. Answer the question I asked.
How did the Old Testament saints get saved from hell when there was no Redeemer yet at the point they died?
Answer that question.
The Church teaches that the righteous in the OT were in Limbo awaiting their Savior
In theological usage the name (limbus in Latin or limbo in English ) is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ’s triumphant ascension into Heaven (the “limbus patrum”); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the “limbus infantium” or “puerorum”). (source: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia)
That doesn’t answer the question. It merely states where the souls in question ended up.
The question is: HOW were they redeemed at the time of their deaths when there was no Redeemer yet?
Who redeemed them?
The redemption occurred via Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, which, at the time those souls died, had not occurred yet.
So, how were they redeemed?
Here is the answer: The FUTURE merits of Christ’s death were applied to the souls who died before He became incarnate.
That’s how the OT saints were redeemed even though there was no Redeemer yet.
God saw the “future” and applied its merits in the “past.”
Same thing happened with the Immaculate Conception.
Our Lord’s future merits were applied to a past event to preserve Our Lady from all stain of sin, as She was in need of a Redeemer like all of us.
Same concept applies to what the other people have been stating in this thread regarding future merits versus past events.
By the way, you will find what you’re alluding to in the Catholic Encyclopedia under the entry “The Nature and Attributes of God,” which references Saint Thomas Aquinas.
…the parallel example of the Immaculate Conception is a fine example, Selah. Protestants reject the idea that Our Lady could have been made Immaculate by way of the preemptive merits of her Divine Son, but that is exactly what the Church teaches.
Caling DJR, Bub, is no argument.
Barbara that is for God. The Catholic Church has never taught this. Its not in the Catholic Catechism. People who are the Faithful Departed we can pray for. The Catholic Church has prayers for the Faithful Departed. The Catholic Church does not have prayers for salvation outside of time. That outside of time concept is complete garbage it’s a New Age Concept that there is reasonable hope that everyone is going to Heaven. Nothing in the Holy Scriptures teaches this poison.
Spiritual and not religious is how many describe the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. This is a cop out. The AA program is largely based on the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Thanks for the article Steve. It’s a reminder that we should pray for these infamous immorality promoting celebrities while they are alive and still have a chance to be saved. Hopefully I’ll keep that in mind next time I’m tempted to curse one of these demon inspired public personas.
Your blog title certainly grabbed attention today. How very sad that you would cause many to assume by that title that you are yet another church guy passing judgement which is not yours to make. The Word of God does not say that we must “make sacrifices or observe meatless Fridays or live chastely or go to Mass…” for salvation. Quite the opposite, Paul states in Ephesians 2:8 that it is “by grace through faith you are saved, and not of works, lest any man should boast.” Salvation is a deeply personal and private act between God and man. You did not know David Bowie, and cannot know his heart. Nor did I, and I am not defending the man. Yes, scripture says you can tell a man by his fruit, but you and I cannot know the entire story of David Bowie Jones’ life, we know his stage presence and his media persona. Private speculation about one soul or another’s ultimate destination is a fault of our humanness, but is not constructive to the building up of the Body of Christ nor does it draw others to faith. We should consider these things as we reflect on how we then shall live. I believe you damage the living testimony of the body of Christ with your headline meant to garner traffic to a website. And many who read it will see piety and pompous self-denial and will not understand the grace message of the Bible. This breaks my heart.
Christ said, If you do not eat My Body or drink My Blood you have no life within you ! I did not hear David Bowie receiving Last Rites before his poor soul passed to our Lord for the first Judgement. God will also take in account all the millions and millions of souls who died in Mortal Sins because of Bowie’s influence on them in taking drugs and perverted sex. Even making these souls hating God and the Catholic Church because of his horrible music. David Bowie was a servant of Satan. Just like Mick Jagger and Madonna and Katie Perry and the rest of Satan’s Offspring who are enemies of Mary’s Offspring.
God’s boundless grace covers a multitude of sin. You do not know David Jones (Bowie was a stage name) last moments of life. His last breath may have been a prayer to the Almighty. And if it was, why does the possibility of a life of sin, punctuated by a moment of salvation, anger we humans so much? Isn’t that exactly what happened to the man on the cross next to Jesus, who after living a life of shame and sin asked Jesus for forgiveness and was granted it? I’d rather dwell on the possibility of a brief moment in his life that changed his eternity than to spew vitriol about all the people who do not behave as well as we do. Father, have mercy on us, for we are all sinners.
That Boundless mercy includes Repentance with Contrition, Confession with a Catholic Priest then Penance then Repatriation. That is Christ’s boundless Mercy nothing else. Anything else is a false Mercy in the name of the false Christ even the Justified will be fooled. Yes there is the Justified with Christ. Those are the saints on earth. Judgement is done by God and Him alone through what Christ and His Apostles and His One Church. Not a New Age Church.
…it’s no New Age Church to acknowledge Christ’s mercy while at the same time upholding the objective reality of His Justice. Please, don’t fall into the stereotypes. Helps nobody.
Here we have to agree to disagree. The Bible does not say that man must seek out a Catholic Priest for confession. No man comes to the Father God except by Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. No church doctrine supersedes the Holy Bible for in Revelation Gods word cautions specifically against adding or taking away from His Word. I am not a new age convert, but Catholic raised, born again believer in Jusus Christ, sir. I do believe that one day we will experience the surprise of seeing who is in Heaven, and who is not. I remain in Grace alone, a daughter of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That’s fine and dandy!
John 20:21: “and He breathed on them saying “receive theHoly Spirit….whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained.”
Spartacus above is correct: the New Testament was written for Catholics speaking to other Catholics. It is the Mass and Catholic Tradition put down on parchment.
It is NOT a blueprint for you to creat your own religion.
If you’re not supposed to add to the Bible, please tell us where in the Bible you got your belief that it contains 66 books. Book, chapter, and verse, and Bible only, please.
He was an Atheist and that is a hardened heart. No matter how good of a man you are to others you are either with God or against him. There is no in between. An Atheist cuts all belief off in God. That alone is why we should pray.
Every single word of the new testament was written by a Catholic to other Catholics in an already existing Catholic Church (Body of Christ); that is, the Church preceded the writing of the new Testament and because you do not read the New Testament with Catholic understanding but, rather, read it as though it were a blueprint for building your own religion, you are a bit like the Hell’s Angels Biker who stuffed a grenade into the tail pipe of
a Chopper owned by Pagan M.C. member and then predicted the explosion would result in the existence of an exact replica of the original Rood Screen in Salisbury Cathedral.
And how is likening me to such a foolish thing Christlike, or kind, or loving, or remotely Christian? I am indeed Catholic raised, and Biblically literate. I refrain from slinging unkind words and euphemisms to dispute another person’s thoughts.
Please. Pope Francis is the official mouthpiece of the Church and he minces the N.T. Who cares which came first: the Church is under the Word of God, not the author of it.
I would like to clarify that St. Paul is saying that no one merits the initial grace of justification, which happens through Baptism. Justification is an unmerited, undeserved gift from God. However, we *can* merit graces for further sanctification. See CCC 2006-2011 and James 2:14-24
Also, if salvation is “a deeply personal and private act between God and man,” why would we presume to intrude upon this privacy by praying for other people? Your notion doesn’t seem Catholic. Look up church militant, church suffering, and church triumphant to see the Catholic point of view.
I to took moments of silence and prayer for his soul. I learned he was into Buddhism in the 60’s and tried every religion even Satanism. That really scared me for his soul. In research hoping to find he found comfort in God, I read his last interview that he was atheist. I viewed the video black star and I saw a scary story laid out with it. Like he was a black Star himself and he sold his soul. Then I watched the Laz video and that scared me even more. So I went on to research more and came across an article by Fox Business that Christians and especially Catholics were up in arms over this video called next day. So I pulled it up on youtube and had to sign my age in because it was explicit. To say the least! And I saw Blasphemy across my screen. I prayed harder and asked God to have mercy on his soul because he know not what he has done. You see I liked him in the 80’s 90’s. after all his crazy music. I saw him in concert (front row) he grabbed my hand 3x during his performance and before the concert, I had a picture with him taken. It was a good memory and I felt I owed him some prayers of the faithful. Hopefully someone will pray for me one day.
Here is the video. May make you want to pray even more. Or you will shut it off and take a shower lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wL9NUZRZ4I
the “Dark Star” video is even worse
How sad and perverted. This god you call holy will torture his own creatures for eternity? What a monster! Even Hitler and Polpot were not that bad, at least death ended their victim’s suffering. But you, with all of your god’s so called love in your heart believe your god will punish people for eternity? That is as loveless of a concept I have ever heard. You will be pleasantly surprised when you meet this god of yours that there is no fire in hell. Life is unfair, that’s what eternity is for.
God gives His people what they desire and if during their time of trial – life- they choose to live apart from Him and transgress His Commandments, then what choice does He have for He is a loving father and not a lying lunatic.
You, on the other hand, may not have much time left so ditch the “God must act like I desire He act or He is not God” ideology and beg for forgiveness and try and save your soul for as it is now, you are clearly doing the work of Satan and are headed for Hell.
The lovelessness is not on the part of God but on the part of those who refuse to love Him. He allows them, in their hardened wills, to spend eternity apart from Him because, simply put, they refuse to love Him.
And Our Lord gave us the way to love Him.
John 14:21: He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.
According to Saint Faustina, the loss of God for all eternity is the worst among all the sufferings of Hell. Those who go there do so of their own free will. It’s a frightening reality.
quote-religion-is-for-people-who-fear-hell-spirituality-is-for-people-who-have-been-there-david-bowie
I’ll say something nice about Bowie: he was a better human being than Bruce Jenner. Bowie only led his minions into bisexuality, aids, and death. Jenner cut off his healthy body parts and paraded it on national television before millions of children.
Thoughts from Saint Augustine:
Do not DESPAIR: one of the thieves was SAVED.
Do not PRESUME: one of the thieves was DAMNED.
If you walk along train tracks, you see that the individual rails are spaced a consistent distance apart; but as you look down the length of the track, the space between them appears to shrink until, at a certain distance, they seem to meet. Just so, today, we might say today of someone that “he lived a long life,” but from the perspective of eternity, the length of time between the day of his birth and of his death will surely dwindle to nothing. How little we have! How little any of it is worth! And what an easy task it ought to be dispose of that littleness for love of God, and so make certain our salvation.
Some good thoughts here, Steve. Nicely done.
Please don’t write about things you have no concept of. This piece is a pretentious, sanctimonious piece of shit. Save YOURSELF from hell and stop conceiving of others being there!
Great piece. One of the most relevant scriptures is only in the Catholic Bible…Sirach 11:21
“Do not marvel at the works of a sinner,
but trust in the LORD and wait for his light;
For it is easy in the eyes of the LORD
suddenly, in an instant, to make the poor rich.”
God could have saved him in the very last instant but we simply don’t know for sure. The passage above is not about Powerball…it’s about salvation poverty. People are marveling today at the extent of his sin….do not marvel at the works of a sinner. Doesn’t matter. God can grace him in an instant if He wills…” He has mercy on whom He has mercy and whom He wills He hardens.” But we still don’t know where he is but we can hope.
There are fewer people in Hell than some folks think. There are more people in Hell than others presume not.
Mixed emotions, as I pity even the most wicked men who die in an unsanctyfing state of grace but to say Bowie wasn’t the catapult for the mainstream acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle is false. The reality of Hollywood and stardom in this world forces one to put the moral standards of the Church on the shelf, which is why very few will be granted eternal salvation without suffering in purgatory…..the Saints don’t lie!
Glenn Frey died… so now the hipsters will have him singing “Hotel California” with Francis.
Since God is not bound by time or space, I sincerely hope that at the moment of his death, the Divine Mercy of Jesus was offered to him, and he repented. I also find it awkward when celebrities die who I know were not living saintly lives, but take solace in knowing that Divine Mercy exists and is a free gift that we all can partake in. Only God can truly judge the soul. I only hope the lives who were ruined by their influence will be presented to them, especially if those souls are in Hell. Their Purgatory should be spent in witnessing the many stories of those who were influenced by their music or lifestyle and chose Hell.
Several hundred comments about praying, or not praying, for a celebrity you never knew.
I pity the poor sinner who died in obscurity or is lying in the hospice as you type. When do they get a thought from the Internet people?
That’s part of my point. We know more about the lives of the famous, and thus it affects how we think about their eternal destination when they die.
And it should make us more reflective about the fate of our own souls.
In my family, we have a tradition of praying foe “the sinners who will die today” and “the poor souls in purgatory, especially those with nobody to pray for them.”
These are by nature more difficult people to devote this much discussion to. We know nothing about them, which is, I presume, your point.
I suspect that some of the commenters’ robust reactions to this story is that their eyes are wide open to the sense that artists such as Bowie provide the soundtrack to the world’s occasions of sin. I posted the link below on the That The Bones You Have Crushed May Thrill blog recently. Vigilant Citizen, apparently secular, does a great service to mankind, which is largely ignored.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/musicbusiness/occult-universe-david-bowie-meaning-blackstar/
I have no way of judging David Bowie nor do I wish to. As they say, that’s above my paygrade. I will note that the environment he traveled in was not exactly conducive to a positive spiritual life. While he, like us, will have to account for his life, we can all hope that the Almighty, who knows all things perfectly, will see some redemptive value in his life. The ancient Egyptians believed that the soul, upon death, was weighed in the balance against a feather. David himself said that he did not know what was next but that it would be interesting. Possibly he already had a foretaste of the necessity for preparation.
I already posted about David Bowie, most of my comment was ‘Judge not and you shall not be judged ‘ but a lot more besides and then my diatribe was lost due to a difficulty in signing in, had to confirm my email and what I had written got lost. I am done but hope David Bowie is not and that he is in Heaven praising ‘The Lord’ A lot of sanctimonious people here have condemned him .Only God can do that so you are all donning the mantle of God Shame on you and God bless David Bowie