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Cardinal Müller: “They Want Me to Lead a Group Against the Pope”

Editor’s note: this interview was originally published at Corriere Della Sera in Italian, and has been translated and reprinted here with permission. 

The theologian: “There is a risk of a separation which could become a schism. I remain with Bergoglio, but those who complain must be listened to.”

By Massimo Franco


“There is a faction of the traditionalist groups, as well as of the progressives, who want to see me as the leader of a movement against the Pope. But I will never do it. I have served the Church with love for forty years as a priest, sixteen years as a professor of dogmatic theology and ten years as a diocesan bishop. I believe in the unity of the Church and I will not let anyone exploit my negative experiences of the last few months. The authorities of the Church, however, ought to listen to those who ask serious questions and make legitimate complaints, not ignore them or, worse, humiliate them. Otherwise, without intending it, they may increase the risk of a slow separation which could develop into a schism of one part of the Catholic world, disoriented and disillusioned. The history of the Protestant schism of Martin Luther 500 years ago ought to teach us above all what mistakes to avoid.” Cardinal Gerhard Müller speaks with a soft voice and pronounced German accent. We are in the apartment on the Piazza della Città Leonina where in the past Joseph Ratzinger lived before he became Benedict XVI, in a building where various high ranking prelates reside.

Müller, perhaps the most respected Catholic theologian, is the ex-prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, replaced by surprise last July by Jorge Mario Bergoglio. “The Pope told me, ‘Some have said to me anonymously that you are my enemy,’ without explaining to me on what point [they said I opposed him],” said Müller, heartbroken. “After forty years of service to the Church, this is what I heard said about me – an absurd accusation created by empty talkers who instead of attempting to instill apprehension in the Pope would do better to visit a shrink. A Catholic bishop and cardinal of the Holy Roman Church is by nature “with” the Holy Father. But I believe that, as the 16th-century theologian Melchior Cano said, the Pope’s true friends are not those who give him adulation but those who help him with the truth and with human and theological competence. In all the organizations of the world, sycophants of this stripe serve only themselves.”

Harsh, resentful words, spoken by one who feels he has suffered an undeserved wrong. The cardinal dismisses the idea, maintained by some alarmist voices, that someone is organizing plots against Francis, disagreeing with others taking positions he considers too progressive: he considers it “an absolute exaggeration.” But he admits that the Church is being strained by serious tensions. “The tensions arise from the opposition existing between an extreme traditionalist position on certain websites and an equally exaggerated progressivist position, which today tries to legitimize itself by claiming to be ultra-papist,” according to Müller. He considers these to be aggressive minorities.

This is why the cardinal expresses a message of unity but also of concern. “Watch out – if there is a perception given of injustice on the part of the Roman Curia, almost by the force of inertia a movement towards schism could be set in motion, difficult to rein in once started. I believe that the cardinals who expressed the dubia regarding Amoris Laetitia, or the 62 signers of the letter criticizing the Pope, even if their criticisms were excessive, need to be listened to, not dismissed as “Pharisees” or grumpy people. The only way out of this situation is a clear and frank dialogue. Instead, I get the impression that in the “magic circle” of the Pope there are those who preoccupy themselves with spying on their presumed adversaries, thus impeding an open and balanced discussion. To classify all Catholics into two categories as either the ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’ of the Pope is the most seriously damaging thing they are doing to the Church. One remains perplexed if a well-known journalist and an atheist can present himself as a friend of the Pope, while at the same time a Catholic bishop and cardinal like me is defamed as an opponent of the Holy Father. I do not believe that these persons can give me theology lessons on the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.”

Müller does not see a Church more divided than it was in the years of Benedict XVI. “But I see it weaker. We struggle to analyze problems well. Priests are scarce and give answers that are more organizational, political, and diplomatic than theological and spiritual. The Church is not a political party with power struggles. We ought to discuss existential questions, about life and death, the family and religious vocations, and not endlessly discuss church politics. Pope Francis is very popular, and this is a good thing. But the people no longer receive the Sacraments. And his popularity among non-Catholics which is praised with enthusiasm unfortunately does not change their false convictions. Emma Bonino [an Italian atheist and politician known as one of Italy’s foremost abortionists], for example, praises the Pope but remains firm in her positions on abortion, which the Pope condemns. We must be careful not to confuse the great popularity of Francis, which is also an enormous patrimony for the Catholic world, with a true revival of the faith, even if we all support the Pope in his mission. 

In the view of Cardinal Müller, after almost five years of this pontificate one phase of it has ended – that of the Church understood as a “field hospital,” the happy definition which Francis gave to La Civilta Cattolica in 2013, shortly after his election. “It was a great intuition of the Pope. But perhaps now we need to go outside the field hospital and take stock of the war against the natural and supernatural good of contemporary man which made the hospital necessary,” he asserts. “Today we have more need of a ‘Silicon Valley’ of the Church. We ought to be the ‘Steve Jobs’ of the faith and transmit a strong vision in terms of moral and cultural values and spiritual and theological truths. He notes the inadequacy of “the popular theology of certain monsignors and the overly journalistic theology of others. We also need theology at the academic level.”

From his words one intuits that his criticisms are directed above all towards certain collaborators of Francis. “Popularization is fine. Francis tends to justly emphasize the pride of intellectuals. At times, however, they are not the only proud ones. The vice of pride is an aspect of character and not of the intellect. Faith and reason are friends.” In the cardinal’s view, the model of the papacy which tends to emerge intermittently “more as the sovereign of the Vatican State than as supreme teacher of faith” can raise some objections.

“I have the feeling that Francis wants to listen to and integrate everyone. But the premises of his decisions must be discussed first. John Paul II was more a philosopher than a theologian, but he made Cardinal Ratzinger assist him and counsel him in the preparation of magisterial documents. The rapport between the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was and will always be the key to a profitable papacy. And I also remind myself that the bishops are in communion with the Pope: brothers, not delegates, of the Pope, as the Second Vatican Council reminded us. Müller has not yet recovered from “the wound,” as he calls it, of the firing of three of his priest co-workers [at the CDF] shortly before his dismissal. “They were good and competent priests who worked for the Church with exemplary dedication,” is his judgment. “People cannot just be sent away ad libitum, without trial or due process, simply because someone has anonymously denounced a vague criticism of the Pope by one of them…”

Translated by Giuseppe Pellegrino


Correction 12/13/2017: In a parenthetical, Emma Bonino was originally described as an “Italian Catholic politician”. She is in fact an atheist and well-known abortionist in Italy, as well as a friend of the pope.

252 thoughts on “Cardinal Müller: “They Want Me to Lead a Group Against the Pope””

  1. Pleas pick me for next Pope please please it is I who can place the square peg in the round hole
    pick me, me please pick me…..!

    “Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
    I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.”

    • LOL! Sure sounds like he’s putting himself forward as the “sitting on the fence” candidate – judging by the size of the fence-pole stickng out his derriere anyway.

    • I’m no psychologist, but I can diagnose an approach-avoidance conflict when I see one.

      “Approach-avoidance conflicts occur when there is one goal or event that has both positive and negative effects or characteristics that make the goal appealing and unappealing simultaneously.” – Kurt Lewin, German/American psychologist

    • For the good of the Universal Church, I hope the TLM sect will listen to Cardinal Müller. More and more people see that “your way” is equally wrong as “Bergoglio’s way”, and you should start to listen to the others but your own sect members. That is the only way to maintain the Unity, and not the Latin language.

      Well said, Cardinal Müller!

      • I personally don’t give a rat’s behind about Latin, but I do about the Lord’s doctrine, and outside those rascals that actually DO care about Latin, I don’t find care for doctrine!

        So, alas, I’m stuck with Latin.

        • It is fine if you are “stuck with Latin”. The faithful Catholic has nothing against “Latin”.

          The thing is that the TLM goers change their behaviour towards the Catholic belonging to the Universal Church and tend to support only those who belong to their group, who say what they want to hear and do what they expect them to do. They don’t understand that they are not the only ones seeing that “something is wrong” in the Catholic Church for the problems that you are aware of are the same ones that other people see no matter of the rite (be it the TLM, NOM, or some other belonging to the Oriental (Catholic) Churches). This means that it is the problem of the Universal Church.

          However, no one is thinking of leaving the Church because of what is going on, or of blaiming some Cardinal for not wanting to became “Lefebvre of our time”. Til now, it has been acknowledged for so many times by different prelats and erudites that “our gut doesn’t lie” and that what we “feel is for real”. No true Catholic faithful is denying “confusion”. Yet no one who wishes good for the Universal Church shouldn’t do anything to cause another schisme nor motivate people to leave! We are all aware that some huge mistakes are “in the air” and that we are practically facing the “two in one” Church, but there is no alternative except to stay inside and be patient.

          There are many good things that the TLM goers do as well as website 1P5 in terms of following up with the news, bringing up some interesting topics and educating those who desire to know more thoroughly the Catholic faith and the TLM tradition. But make no mistake: no small group of TLM goers outside of the official Church can offer alternative to the Catholic faithful.

          In that sense, Cardinal Müller has right and you can’t attack him for not saying what you are expecting. After all, he did say so far few very indicative things and we should be conforted with that, instead of forcing any Cardinal to start the schisme. For if one leaves the Church, no matter of the current problems, the Universal Church will surely survive; it will be your soul who won’t.

          • If you are saying that those who adhere to Tradition – the true teachings and tradition of the Catholic Church as lived for 2,000 years before Vatican II are going to split off, or leave the Church I must ask you where you get this idea?

            I won’t have ANYTHING to do with any Novus Ordo Church, parish, priest, or congregation. I, and they, do not speak the same TRUTH, and it doesn’t matter whether that truth is in English, Polish, or Latin.

            We all belong to the same Catholic Church. But there are AUTOMATIC splits now, and there have always been these splits. No one needs to say it, as you point, out but it is real.

            Pope Francis, and everyone who follows his thinking and teaching to a different way splits from “the Church.” No getting away from this: Francis has invented a new Church even if that is not his intent.

          • “I won’t have ANYTHING to do with any Novus Ordo Church, parish, priest, or congregation.” I myself go to the TLM and hope that it again can become the ordinary liturgy for the Latin church. But the words in quotes here, perhaps they exemplify what Kora meant when she said, stop acting as if you belonged to a sect.

          • You have a keen eye ????

            They are not aware of this mindset that they have, and that is not at all Catholic.

      • News Flash, Kora. There has not been “Unity” for some time. Think Again.

        One thing about Latin…the devil hates this language.

        • “One thing about Latin…the devil hates this language.”

          I don’t know if devil hates Latin, but I am sure that he adores schismatics no matter why they separate themselves from the Universal Church.

          Try not to fall into his trap!

      • Remember, it’s not holy unity. It’s Holy Church.
        The Unity must never be superior to the Truth. What is that Catholic Church must represent and always stand for.
        No matter what. And that means, indeed, even disunity with the heretics and apostates.
        People should stop talking about the Unity as about some kind of the holy cow!

        • The dissenters also want unity, otherwise they would leave…but they do not want what Martin Luther ended up with, that is a Church of his own, they want “The Church” with officially changed doctrine to suit their own interests, including complete control from the Pope on down. Meanwhile the dissenters have for the most part not been excommunicated or even removed from important positions , resorting instead to the rationale that we need dialogue and must be careful not to cause a schism. Are the dissenters closer to their goal now than they were during the pontificates of Pope JP II , or Pope Benedict XVI?
          Who am I to judge? Leave the decision to an imperfect council, along with the appropriate punishment for heresy as well.

          • “…Meanwhile the dissenters have for the most part not been excommunicated or even removed from important positions…”
            Indeed. To make things even worse, much worse, they were the truly FAITHFUL ones WELL removed and even excommunicated by the responsible ‘power-owners’!
            And exactly, but who the heck am I (are we) to judge anything, anywhere, anyhow, anytime…

            But, you know what? This; – “Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.” (Matthew 7,20)
            And also this; – “Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5,20)
            And this; – “Therefore shall this iniquity be to you as a breach that falleth, and is found wanting in a high wall, for the destruction thereof shall come on a sudden, when it is not looked for.” (Isaiah 30,13

          • Ah, so YOU deny the very Word of God and the warnings He gives. In that case you are an apostate. Therefore, go away. Your argumentativeness, anger and animosity are NOT welcome here.

          • ” Ah, so YOU deny the very Word of God and the warnings He gives. In that case you are an apostate. Therefore, go away. Your argumentativeness, anger and animosity are NOT welcome here.”

            Nor are YOURS welcome to the Universal Church.

            So or you leave it, or stop to attack Cardinal Müller!

          • What is he talking about? The ICSP and the FSSP are in communion with Rome. Neither of these orders have “dissenters. “. Even the SSPX isn’t totally cut off from Rome. They all keep the traditional latin Tridentine mass and their priests where cassocks. They sing Gregorian chant. Wow, horrors! This is all I’ve know since converting so my new experience this past years of living in a new state where I can only attend NO church feels like dissenting to me.

          • May God deliver us from those ungodly, corrupted, treacherous, subtle and abominated men. They have voluntarily submitted themselves slaves of Satan who has conquered their own self-master and posterities for money, fame, power and sexual perversion. Since the sacrifice of Jesus Christ of Calvary, the humanity’s weak, sinful nature have triumphed and may still triumph over power of darkness if we as Saint Paul said, “Put you on the armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the snares of the Devil…” Unfortunately those God’s ordained priests have often united beauty and vices, virtue and ugliness that they ‘ve never be the blessed who will shine eternally with their virtues; but became the ugly damned with the greatness of their crimes that demonically planned to overthrown Jesus, King of kings, Lord of lords and his Church. They’re all goats which being in the grand sense of the last judgement, the symbol of the slaves of sin. May God have mercy on their souls.

        • You have a valid point. Unity is important, but we cannot adhere to heresy. Indeed, I believe in staying and fighting for the true Church, we are the Church Militant, but if they insist that we adhere to heresy or we face excommunication, well….so be it. And……we are already divided not formally, but in practical terms. Just a fact. I don’t know if I’m correct about this, but I get the distinct impression that Bergoglio will force our hand. He has already stated that he ‘may be the one to cause a schism’. Never in my life have I heard of a Pope of the Catholic Church talking so nonchalantly about he himself causing a ‘schism.’ It should be the very last thing on a Pope’s mind.

          • Exactly. And than even so nonchalant to say something like that?!
            But you know, we are in these days, when the hierarchy of our Church, but also most of the flock, just simply accept everything. Every word or sentence or meaning, – it just don’t matter anymore. Everyone is free do say, and of course (it become very fast thereafter) also to do what his heart pleases. We have in the Church for a long time already, a I. class apostates, and actually nobody (of those who should and MUST) cares.

          • “Never in my life have I heard of a Pope of the Catholic Church talking so nonchakantly about he hinself causing a ‘schism’. It should be the very lads thing on a Pope’s mind.”

            It should be the very last thing on any Catholic faithful’s mind, yet somehow it became an obsession of the TLM goers and the Lefebvrists.

            What choice do you leave to Bergoglio but to excomunicate you? He surely won’t excomunicate himself.

          • Well, one thing I can tell you that is a fact: We are not obligated to adhere to heresy, not even from a ‘Pope’. And the fact is, that we are OBLIGATED to stand against such heresy. If we do not, we will stand before the Just Judge and answer for it!(fact) And, what I foresee if the Bishops don’t step in and step in soon, is the ‘excommunication process’ to be fully implemented for those who will not ‘adhere to the faith’ (to their heresy). Bergoglio himself will not of course, get his hands dirty, but will farm that job out to his followers. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if the Bishops continue to allow him to wield his hammer and cycle.

            And…….so if I stand for Christ in His Church faithfully, and because of this I am ‘excommunicated’ so be it. It’s not as if this is not already happening to faithful Priests and even laity as we speak. As far as Bergoglio excommunicating himself he will indeed if he speaks heresy ‘from the Chair.’ It will be ‘automatic’. Some Canon Lawyers are already saying that this has happened by his publication of the ‘interpretation’ of A.L in the AAS. ….and the ‘debate’ goes on.

            One more thing. TLM goers and Lefebvrists are ‘obsessing’ over a possible ‘schism’? I don’t see it. I see many people in the N.O. Church worried about a ‘schism’, as well as TLM and SSPX people. But when a ‘Pope’ speaks of the possibility of he himself causing a schism? It’s unprecedented. We are absolutely in ‘uncharted waters’, but the Bishops better find their compass and find it quickly!! This guy is taking a wrecking ball to the Church of Christ.

          • Precisely. Kora once again, as she has done before, is seeking to stir up anger and animosity. She obviously is a Francis Fan who actually seems to know very little about the True, Authentic Catholic Faith. By that Faith we are obliged to: 1) put God first and foremost in our lives, 2) adhere to the Truths of Divine Revelation, 3) accept with the assent of faith those Magisterial pronouncements that conform to Divine Revelation and reject those that do not, 4) defend – with our lives if necessary – the True Catholic Faith We are also called to stand with those, including a pope, who confirm and uphold that True Faith and to correct those in objective error and, if necessary, remove or call for the removal of those who obstinately deviate from the True Faith. Our unity comes not from clinging to any pope, even Francis, but to Jesus Christ and the Church He founded. He and He alone is the source of our unity. Holiness achieved through the One True Holy Catholic.and Apostolic Church comes first then unity achieved by virtue of adherence to that same Church. Those who hold fast to that Church and the Faith she professes and practices are not wrong in rejecting any compromise with evil because there can be no compromise with evil – the Church herself and her Founder demand we reject evil in all forms and types and cling to the Truth. But that Truth is ONLY found in Christ, in God’s Divine Revelation to man and the Holy Spirit guided perennial Magisterial pronouncements (doctrines and teachings) of the Catholic Church. Those who think and promote otherwise are in objective error.

          • Bergoglio can do as he wishes. As laity, i cannot stop him, should it come to that.

            Let me ask, if I may. Do you have a ” line in the sand”, that you will not cross?
            Is there anything this vengeful despot will do or say that shall cause you to say, ” I cannot.”?

          • God would never ask from his Children to leave His house, His Church in order to prove faithfulness to Him.

          • His house, is His Truth, His Word, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which this pathetic sinner is in great need of.
            Maybe if I were stronger, more holy, I could be sustained in the faith in a house that sells lies,
            offers one seductive deception after another, lures and lulls me into sin, and minimizes the Supernatural Mystery of the Eucharist.

            I must go and seek where I can be fed.

          • Sounds like you have an axe to grind towards the TLM and the SSPX. You even refer to them as “lefebvrists. You know, I encountered people like you when I was converting who called me names like “knuckle dragger” because I attended a TLM church and dared to wear a veil. We aren’t the problem. You are.

          • Don’t get deceived by the one who confuses you. Our duty is guarding our own souls, always seeking for the truth, sincerely and the truth will set you free. Better obey God than man.

          • I’m NOT deceived by kora. My faith is strong. And it is strong because I put my faith in Jesus Christ.

        • I have come to 1P5 running from the Neocatechumenal Way. In the meantime, I have found another possibility of staying within the Church, but avoiding “Western Catholic Church” since it has become so devided into small groups and each of them believes that it defends the Truth.

          Like I said, I appreciate 1P5 for many reasons and good things they do, but one should know where the “red line” is. I don’t like Bergoglio either, I found him having a psychopatic disorder and doing too many mistakes for “Holy Father”, but I wont blame the Cardinals for that nor will I support any schismatic initiative that is to be lead under the title of “filial correction”. I wouldn’t do that because of those faithful who still don’t understand what is going on. You can’t take risk when the others think you should, but when you are sure that the lose will be minimal.

          You should understand that from the example of the Cardinal Stepinac. He knew much more than most people can conceive and he did certain things to avoid bigger harm of the souls. That is why I trust to Cardinal Müller. He is a wise man, not at all discouraged or ignorant, as some people here want to make him look like.

          • I see. You are still pointing to the same way, namely to subtopics, called (importance of) ‘unity’, and/or (futility & danger of) ‘schism’.
            You really should know that those things, and all other things on the world, no matter how bad or unhappy or uncomfortable they might be, could never be above the TRUTH, which is in the matter of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, – the GOD Himself.
            In fact, we all, if we are truly disciples of Jesus Christ, should and must, all the time, each moment, be willing to die for the truth, for Christ, for His Church.

          • What I am saying is that Bergoglio can’t force you to believe in what is wrong. He can say whatever he wants but can’t make you betray Our Lord . However, if you leave the Church – he forced you to betray Him. He wins, you lose. Out of the Catholic Church there is no salvation!

          • Interesting. You say that pretty right. But your understanding of ‘leaving the Church’ is very strange.
            It seems you are able to know that Catholics who are attending the Holy Mass according to Roman Missal from 1962, which btw. was, IS, and will always be valid, somehow and because of that outside of the Church!
            Very strange thinking is that, especially when we can conclude your opinion about those who are spewing heresies, but somehow still simply ‘belongs’ to the same Universal Church.

          • Like I said, no remedy for you but excomunication due to disobedience.

            Otherwise, I am not afraid of those who spread the heresy within the Church and I am not going to run out of the Church because of them. Can you say the same thing for the TLM goers?

          • Who is threatening?

            You really do sound like a Vatican employee to me, calling names such as ” sect” to those Catholics who wish to attend the TLM and believing there is such an aggressiveness in their ways.
            Personally, my opinion, and correct me if I am wrong, I wonder if you truly find Bergoglio troubling in his gross lack of defending the faith?

            And let’s make this one thing very clear: Fidelity to Christ always trumps fidelity to a heretical pope.
            And if Muller is so childishly stuck in not understanding this, then so be it.

            It is childish to threaten this ” excommunication” about Catholics will follow Christ first and foremost in the teachings of His Church, to be found more often in the TLM than any Novus Ordo Mass.
            I did not say exclusively, but more often.

            Who wants schism? Not I. But I will NOT make a deal with the ” devil” for the sake of this ” unity” , which is only a very thin appearance right now in the Church. I will not support what is not of Truth, of God’s Word.
            I just cannot.

          • You doubt everyone and everything. No wonder you became so pesimist.

            Besides, you sould show your “muscles” in the everyday life as well, not only “in the Church”.

            Donald Trump is about to do the most stupid thing ever with Jerusalem. What are you going to do about that, for this is another concern of the Universal Church. I haven’t seen any of you being bothered with “thy neighbour” in the Middle East.

          • We are bothered with our neighbor. Even when he is not a Catholic. But your problem is, and it seems to be not a little one, that you somehow expect to see, and know everything about everyone. That is very odd.
            And you seems to be very angry person. Who knows why is that. I don’t know, but it seems you don’t know neither.
            What I can see, and that’s too obvious, that you are especially angry at Catholics…
            What are you actually?

          • I am not at all angry, I am just very critical thinker. There is a difference between the two. You shoul have better arguments than guessing the feelings of people you don’t know just because you can’t explain yourself ????

          • And I suppose those of us who attend the TLM are not critical thinkers?
            You speak like an elitist, who groups people into ” sects” and disparages those who do not go along with your ” critical thinking”.
            Those are the ways of the Marxist…..vilify those who threaten the status quo.
            What is the status quo? Fake Universalism in the Church…… is a fake and many hide their heads, OR pounce on those and demonize them for speaking TRUTH and desiring TRUTH!

            Cardinal Muller acts like a child, and hides under, ” loyalty to the pope”.
            How can a man be loyal to a destroyer????
            And yes, I do believe with reason, that Bergoglio has come to destroy the Church.

          • Why do you want Cardinal Müller to display disloyalty to the Pope? If you are so sure, why don’t you “leave” the Church first? This is not the way!

          • You are NOT a critical thinker at all. You are speaking to us through tunnel vision. NO good. TLM bad. How can anyone have an intellectual conversation with someone like that?

          • Of course the Church belongs to our Lord and our Lady is Mother of the Church.
            I cannot believe that you are even thinking if anyone here can thinks other way. Especially the true sons and daughters of the Church. They know that, don’t be worried about them.
            But, would you say now, how we must see your “… I am not going to run out of the Church because of them.”, when you’ve said that you’ve been a member of Neocatechumenal Way? Which is, let us believe not even a kind of sect?

          • “I am not going to run out of the Church because of them.”, when you’ve said that you’ve been a member of Neocatechumenal Way? Which is, let us believe not even a kind of sect?”

            I have never been a member of the Neocatechumenal Way. I have said that they came into the Church where I belong to. I fight against them and I have moved in the Oriental Catholic Church.

            And from what you are saying about the Neocatechumenal Way, I see you know nothing about Catholicism. Moreover, you have no gift of discernment for they are more than just a sect: they are pure evil in the Catholic Church.

            Now, how is it possible for one “traditional Catholic” that he is not able to see such an “elephant in the room”?

          • “And from what you are saying about the Neocatechumenal Way, I see you know nothing about Catholicism. ”
            And AGAIN, you are so wrong. You just keep thinking that you know. I was asking that, specifically in that way to see how your answer should be on that. Because it was very significant that you where a member of them.
            When you write as you did above: “I have come to 1P5 running from the Neocatechumenal Way.”, it is easy to think that you were one of them. And there are the sect, but not for Francis and Muller. At least, there was never officially proclamation about that. But the question remain; how dare you then call them a sect, when you are alined with Muller and Francis.
            PS. This is just rethorical question.
            It would be fine if you’ll stop with wasting of our time and the space here with your seemingly smart predictions about everything that you just think to know.
            Calm down and go read something good, the book of Sirach, as earlier suggested is still highly recommended.

          • “And AGAIN, you are so wrong. You just keep thinking that you know. I was asking that, specifically in that way to see how your answer should be on that. Because it was very significant that you where a member of them.”

            It is not nice to lie ????

            Besides, how can it be “significant that I was a member of them” if I was never their member? ????

            And yes, I run from them the same as from you. Only from time to time
            I come to tease you ????


          • Kora, I admit that I am curious. Watching you spar with others here…what is your purpose? Why come here? What is your idea of the present crisis and what should be done? You don’t seem to fit with the view of the Church we have here.

          • “Kora, I admit that I am curious. Watching you spar with others here…what is your purpose? Why come here? What is your idea of the present crisis and what should be done? You don’t seem to fit with the view of the Church we have here.”

            Dear Steve,

            I appreciate your faith, boldness and good intentions. And you have right: I don’t FIT WITH THE VIEW OF THE CHURCH YOU HAVE HERE.
            Yet, I am nothing but the authentic Catholic. Not at all the perfect one without sins and mistakes. But my faith makes me being the Catholic that belong to the Universal Church.

            Since you have asked me about my opinion what should be done with the present crises, I will copy here my reply to Mike44R, hoping that you can “read between the lines” and STOP TO LEAD THE WAR AGAINST THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH. Educate people, give them space to say how they feel, to expose the problems that are running through the Universal Church, make your web be the connection between the lay people and the Catholic Church erudits and prelats from Vatican or universities worldwide… but stop to make people to believe that there is nothing worthy in the Universal Church anymore, that they should attack everyone who profes his faith in a diffrent manner than the TLM goers, that every Cardinal or Bishop who don’t line up with your VIEW OF THE CHURH should be publicaly scolded by lay people, and above all don’t lead this lay people believe that separation in smaller groups – each imposing its own VIEW about the Catholic Church – is the alternative to the unity of the Universal Church. It is not! And here is why:

            “Ah, so YOU deny the very Word of God and the warnings He gives. In that case you are an apostate. Therefore, go away. Your argumentativeness, anger and animosity are NOT welcome here.”

            Nor are YOURS welcome to the Universal Church belonging to the Triune God and Our Lady.

            So or YOU GO AWAY and create YOUR CHURCH somewhere else, or stop to attack Cardinal Müller and other bothers and sisters within the UNIVERSAL CHURCH.

            You are hiding behind this “problem of apostasy and heresy”, but what you can’t actually stand is the diversity within the Universal Church that is united in one faith (not one same rite or language), and what you promote and defend is pure cultural hegemony of Westerns which leads you towards religious fascism, while you could swear that you are “defending the Truth” and going “back to YOURS Catholic tradition”.

            This is how the Catholics can become an instrument in the hands of Satan without even being aware of it.

            Otherwise, happy Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

          • Your reply strikes me as odd.

            We are not leading a war against the Universal Church. We are leading a war against those who have hijacked it.

            We are not saying there is nothing worthy in the Universal Church. We are in fact pointing to what those things are and why they are worth fighting for.

            We do not promote a hegemony of Westernism; in fact, we have great respect for the Eastern rites of the Church — in particular their maintenance of liturgical integrity.

            That said, the Roman rite is the most prominent rite of the Church. It is the largest. It is the right of the pope. And the usurpation of its liturgy and sacramental forms and a good portion of its theology are crimes that undermine the very life of faith.

            On these matters, we will never be silent, because we believe that what has been done to the Roman rite damages Catholicism as a whole.

            If I were you, by the way, I would not presume to speak for the Blessed Mother.

          • Before I reply to you regarding the topic, I would like to say that I am very sorry for Mrs. Maike’s husbund. I will join your prayers for her fammily.

            Regarding you statement, here is how I see the current situation:

            1) “We are leading a war against those who have hijacked it.”
            The Church is not “hijacked” for it belongs to God and no one can take it away from Him or Our Lady – Mother of the Church. You need to change the viewpoint and approach to this problem.

            2) “We are not saying there is nothing worthy in the Universal Church. We are in fact pointing to what those things are and why they are worth fighting for.”
            I understand that this is your (good) intention, but the outcomes are not as they should be. There is a belief among the TLM goers that “only they are in danger”, and whoever things just a little bit different and don’t have need to enter the TLM group is “less Catholic”, “stiring up anger and animosity with the TLM”, “needs conversion”, “to be attacked”, etc. Psychologicaly, people here have the mindset like a member of the sect, not the Universal Church, and they became more and more desperate, hopeless and agressive towards both the Catholic prelats and lay people. They are not able to discuss abouve the level of constant accusing others for “betrayal”, they don’t discern between those who are Catholic faithful but have different viewpoint on some topics and those who are the heretics, nor do they show any tolerance to the diversity that belongs to the tradition of the Universal Church. Something is very wrong here in terms of social teaching of the Church.

            3) “We do not promote a hegemony of Westernism; in fact, we have great respect for the Eastern rites of the Church — in particular their maintenance of liturgical integrity.”
            With due respect, this sounds totally dishonest. Your view of the Catholic Church is the one attached strictily to the TLM, and your interpretations of the “Catholic tradition” are completely ignorant of the traditions of the Oriental Church. Moreover, you have also shown lack of understanding even when it comes to some traditions within the Western Catholic Church since for you and your readers the Catholic tradition basically equals the TLM tradition. Briefly, you have pretty discriminative and selective view of the Catholic Church (or should I say partial with regard to the Universal Church) and you can’t clame to have respect for what you even don’t know or acknowledge that it exists. Ortherwise, how come you didn’t say one word about “hijacking of Jerusalem”, which is something that bothers every Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim faithful in the Middle East and many of them in the Europe. I understan the policy of your website and your dedication to the promotion of the TLM, but there is more to that and to be honest, this “liturgical integrity” has never exested in a way that you interpretate it.

            4) “That said, the Roman rite is the most prominent rite of the Church. It is the largest. It is the right of the pope.”
            There is no “rite of the pope” but in your vision of the “Catholic Church”. There have been seven Maronite popes whose liturgie was Oriental, not Latin.

            5) “On these matters, we will never be silent, because we believe that what has been done to the Roman rite damages Catholicism as a whole.”
            While it is true that many things have been done to damage the Catholicism, you should be aware that what you are doing in a way that you are doing damages the Catholicism as whole as well, only in another way and field.

            6) “If I were you, by the way, I would not presume to speak for the Blessed Mother.”
            If I were you, I wouldn’t try to appropriate the Catholic Church for “my religious party” and shape it according to my own view of the Church. I would leave that to God and Our Lady, who will make everything right for all this is happening with the reason.

            That is why I kindly ask you to promote the Truth, and not your view of the Catholic Church for it only brings more wounds to the Universal Church.

          • I got that impression that she had been one of them too. I never even heard of the “neocatechumenal way” until today so I just looked up. Sounds like the usual hippie dippy folk guitar radical Marxist liberation theology Vatican 2 fare to me.

          • I don’t know about her but N-way is certainly a sect. Sadly many people and clergy with a good will (but weak Faith) can’t recognize that. If anyone do just a little research about that he must be assured that they are sect.

          • You know so very little yet strive to portray yourself as the all knowing, all wise, all holy sage who expects and even demands everyone bow down in homage before you. GO AWAY!

          • You do understand that the traditional latin mass was never forbidden in the Vatican 2 documents don’t you? And it was reinforced by both Popes JPII and Benedict XVI. So how can you call us dissenters or calling for schism. We just want to keep the tradition. Good grief.

          • Your constant attack on everybody (lay people or prelats) within the Catholic Church can’t be justify with naive state such as “we just want to keep the tradition”.

            There is a problem in “how” you do “that”, for nobody has noting against the TLM, and yet you have menaged to turn this TLM movement into something extremely violent and negative in terms of the Universal Church.

            I know it will take time for you to open your eyes (for not only the others should open their eyes, yours are somewhat close as well), but I hope you will realize what other Catholic faithful are trying to tell you.

          • Please show me where I have attacked EVERYONE in the Catholic Church. Be specific please. . I’ll be waiting with baited breath.

      • “……TLM sect……”

        a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
        (religious) cult, religious group, denomination, persuasion, religious order, … more

        I am afraid, that those of us who prayer the Traditional Latin Mass are seen that way by so many, including many prelates.

        • Very probably. But they are wrong.
          On the contrary, some of those who are wrongly thinking that way, are themselves very close to be(come) a sect. Which in the means of Catholicism only can purports the apostasy.

          • How can the Universal Church become “a sect”? Are you now bigger than the Universal Church? ☺

            You are criticizing the Catholic Church for every single thing, yet you have no objectivity when it comes to the TLM sect and you can’t bear any critics on your account. How come?

          • Calm down Kora. See, you are twisting words. When I speak about those who are wrong, then I mean those who are already in error, who preach another Gospel than the Gospel of our Lord which they should preach and also must defend when necessary. Your problem seems to be that you won’t see such people we have in the Church. And you make it worse putting your own thoughts as someone else’s, when you are using term ‘universal Church’ and ‘sect’.

          • I am not twisting anything ☺
            What I see is that you have no clue what the Universal Church is for you can’t see further from the TLM and your own strivings to impose it on everybody else, thinking that the TLM will make all the problems of the Universal Church go away. It won’t, because the TLM, the doctrinal problems and the current confusions are just few among the problems of the Universal Church, just as disrespect towards the Church hierarchy or unity is. Not everyone who disagrees with you is “wrong” or a “heretic” who needs “conversion”. I am sorry that you don’t see your own errors and that you can’t accept any “filial correction”.

          • Your imagination is imposing.
            Where did you get that I’ve ever told anyone how TLM can solve all the problems within the Church. You’re imagining again, and again, after that you try to give others some kind of advice.
            But you go on and on in your imagination, and now you accuse me even of not seeing my own ‘errors’, which you, AGAIN, falsely imply to me trough your words about my so-called ‘way of thinking about how everyone who does not agree with me, must be wrong or heretics who needs conversion”.
            I repeat you, calm down.
            May I suggest to you to go read something from the Holy Scripture, for example the book of Sirach, chapter 19. Verses 13-17 can be particularly useful.

          • You mentioned above that you sometimes attend the oriental Catholic Church. My father was ukrainian catholic and I sometimes attend the ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and they have no problem with TLM Catholics at all. They are very kind and inclusive in fact. What IS your problem?

        • Yes, you are right. Just as there is a reason for such perception. You look like a “sect” in terms of different social behaviour as well as in terms of your perception of the “authentic Catholicism”, not to say of the Universal Church, which doesn’t correspond to the reality. I know most of the TLM goers have best intentions but you can’t keep people in your company for a longer periode unless you don’t change your attitude towards other Catholic faithful (including the prelats like Cardinal Müller or Pope Benedict XVI as well).

          • Excuse me. When I attended RCIA class three years ago in my TLM church we used the Baltimore catechism. Are you suggesting here that the Baltimore is heretical or apostate? I was confirmed into the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. Not some sedecaventist separatist group like the old Catholic Church. You need to get your facts straight, lady.

      • We have veen correctly taught that there can be no compromise with evil. The Truth remains true at all times. The deviation from the Truths of the Faith vwginning with Vatican 2 have brought the Cgurch to where it is today. Our position and what we profess and defend I’d not “wrong” precisely because what we profess, defend and seek to restore is the True Faith of the Catholic Church.

      • Is that right? So the people who celebrate the mass as has been done for 2,000 years are suddenly wrong? I converted from Anglicanism to the TLM. If I wanted Anglican lite I would have stayed where I was.

  2. Müller “stands with Bergoglio”— nothing else be said about Müller’s loyalties which are not to Christ and his Church.

    • He is playing the field, steady on a tightrope, out early on the hustings, and positioning himself
      for advantage, prepared in the event of opportunity to boldly cloak his signature as “the voice of reason”

      • You could be so very right…..Why does everyone want to be the ” voice of reason” these days within the Church?
        Those closest to the one ( Francis) they hold in high umbrage, are the ones who are lying to him, allowing Francis to believe that that what he is doing, is really not so bad.

        Perhaps we just have one big, dysfunctional pathetic family in the Vatican.

    • It is difficult for most people who go about their own business diligently to notice the shafting others are getting from the boss until it hits close to home, that is, their own close subordinates and ultimately themselves are wronged in some serious manner.

  3. Cardinal Muller is a devout and loyal son of the Church who is a lover of Christ and loyal to the Petrine Office. I admire him tremendously. He’s obviously correct that it isn’t just the “intellectuals” who suffer from pride.

  4. A “field hospital” church is a church that’s purely worldly and anthropocentric. Any understanding of the Church must spring from the fact that first and above all it’s the Mystical Body, with source and summit in the Eucharist.

    • Cardinal Muller sounded scare as if they knew some of his secrets and blackmail him. Every evil, corrupted, sexual perverting and treacherous priests will be exposed one by one. Cleansing time has come. Thanks God’s marvelous deeds.

  5. Who wants him to lead anything exactly? A man who can bend in the wind like Müller isn’t a fit leader of anything at all. On this perhaps Francis had him pegged aright.

  6. “even if their criticisms were excessive?” What a ludicrous statement. From the same prelate who said that there is nothing wrong with Amoris Laetitia. Sorry your Eminence. It’s time to choose the Truth.

  7. What exactly does it mean “I remain with Bergoglio”??? This is a profoundly odd statement to make from the former Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith, especially under the present circumstances. It is a statement void of any discernible context, and frankly strikes me as cowardly. At best, naive. “There is a risk of separation, which could become a schism.” Are you kidding me? This cannot be taken seriously. The statement itself acknowledges the very schism he seems to fear, but does not recognize: “I remain with Bergoglio.” This substantiates that others do not remain with Bergoglio. I REMAIN + I DO NOT REMAIN = SCHISM.

    Whether we will admit it or not, the Schism is more than official! What is now unfolding is the situation that every single priest and Bishop must face precisely because Bergoglio, playing the role of pope, has declined to clarify it. They individually must answer the question because he refuses to: “Dear Father, at what point does a mortal sin dissipate into thin air, as if it never existed? Is it a function of time, dear Father? A function of my own conscience? Can it be wiped away as long as I vigorously defend the theory of climate change? Help a wounded bird?

    I will say it again. The CONFUSION itself which has been created, nurtured, and allowed to remain under the reign of Bergoglio IS THE SCHISM!!!! We need not look for a headline in the Times screaming “EXTRA!!! EXTRA!!!! “The Schism has now officially arrived!!” If that’s what we are waiting for….some official announcement…we will have missed the boat.

    He has DIVIDED the Church, and is not going to turn back. There is no other way to look at it. And, as I have said before, Benedict XVI is the only man on Earth who has the authority to correct the confusion. And mark my words, he will.

    Take Courage and Pray with Confidence. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are with us. Trust.

      • Do not put your trust in Benedict, you will be disappointed. Benedict betrayed the flock. Francis is a punishment from God for the evil abdication of Pope Benedict. Lord have mercy on him.

        • I hate to say it but I agree. Benedict should have died with his boots on – er, I mean his red shoes on…Popes die IN OFFICE, and this no matter what is happening. He asked us to pray when he was elected that he not run from the wolves. Sad to say when things got really, really difficult for him to “get anything done” he ran.

          It would have been better for him to stay in office even through the worst persecution he could endure than leave. Think of the grace he would have merited for the Church. Think of all the Bishops of the Church who suffered torture and death rather than give in an inch….and ALL the Popes in early times suffered torture and death rather than give in. We seem to have forgotten those people. They were NOT different in any way from Benedict…we don’t have the same kind of active persecution – torture and bloody physical death now but the mental and spiritual torture Benedict was asked to suffer is just as real and he was not faithful to God’s Will for him.

        • Please. With all due respect, if we are going to fault a good man for what may have been an error in judgment, could any one of us ever speak or act without the same criticism? It is also easier to see clearly in hindsight what would have been best. The Church still needs Our Lord and all the saints. We too must strive for holiness and to do our part well.

          • An error in judgement?

            If I decided to abandon my wife and kids and scampered off to a monastery to bask in the glories of how wonderfully I raised my kids [when I was there…}, I’d expect to get more than an earful.

            And I’d deserve it, too.

          • Here is a little more to scratch our heads over….

            Tom Kington in Rome
            Wednesday 21 August 2013 13.45 BST First published on Wednesday 21 August 2013 13.45 BST
            The Guardian.

            The former pope Benedict has claimed that his resignation in February was prompted by God, who told him to do it during a “mystical experience”.

            Breaking his silence for the first time since he became the first pope to step down in 600 years, the 86-year-old reportedly said: “God told me to” when asked what had pushed him to retire to a secluded residence in the Vatican gardens.

            Benedict denied he had been visited by an apparition or had heard God’s voice, but said he had undergone a “mystical experience” during which God had inspired in him an “absolute desire” to dedicate his life to prayer rather than push on as pope.

            The German ex-pontiff’s comments, which are said to have been made a few weeks ago, were reported by the Catholic news agency Zenit, which did not name the person Benedict had spoken to.

            A senior Vatican source said the report was reliable. “The report seems credible. It accurately explains the spiritual process that brought Benedict to resign,” he said.

            Benedict said his mystical experience had lasted months, building his desire to create a direct and exclusive relationship with God. Now, after witnessing the “charisma” of his successor, Pope Francis, Benedict said he understood to a greater extent how his stepping aside was the “will of God”.

            Benedict’s reported remarks contrast with the explanation he gave to cardinals when he announced his resignation on 11 February. “My strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry,” he said then.

            At the time, a German journalist who had recently met Benedict reported he was going deaf, appeared to be blind in one eye, and was emaciated and “exhausted-looking”.

        • Don’t be too hard on him.

          IMO he is the perfect “type” of post-modern Catholic priest-prelate.

          A “tolerant” deadbeat Dad who when the kids get to the age they are really hard to handle abandons them to the Missus and their own foibles. Say what one will about JPII, he didn’t cut and run when things got tough.

          What the Church needs is good fathers. Vested and otherwise. World knows we have precious few of the former, and the divorce stats prove we have a thin crop of the latter, to boot.

          Some changes are in order.

    • The Akita prophecy talks about schism. It is closer to exploding every day. If there ever is a formal correction that will seal the deal. Otherwise it just simmers.

  8. Hmmm…

    “There is a risk of a separation which could become a schism. I remain with Bergoglio, but those who complain must be listened to.”

    Bergoglio? He did not use the word Pope nor the name “Francis”. Curious choice of words.

    I am sure the cardinal would not have referred to Pope Benedict XVI as “Ratzinger” or Pope John Paul II as “Wojtyła”

          • Steve, I did a brief Google search for Muller interviews. I then searched for the name “Ratzinger”. In every case when he uses the word “Ratzinger” he is referring to the past when the Pope was a Cardinal. When referring to the same person in the preset tense- as Pope Benedict sat on the throne of Peter – he uses the words “Pope” and “Holy Father” to describe him.


            So perhaps Europeans are accustomed to using the surname of the Pope …but not Cardinal Muller for if it was common practice for him, he would have used the surname in these interviews freely. Unless folks can point me to interviews he has done concerning past Pope’s using their surnames; I think my observation still stands as relevant.

    • There is something very sleight-of-hand about this whole situation. I can’t put my finger on it, but something seems really out of whack and I immediately sensed an uneasiness reading about it. God help us…..

    • Maybe he actually said “I [prefer] to remain [stuck] with Bergoglio, [because to admit otherwise could prove to be problematic, but I think I feel most comfortable trying to placate both sides of the great, and ever-widening divide].

  9. ‘The Church is not a political party with power struggles.’
    Yes Cardinal, it is not supposed to be this but it has become this.
    It is now ‘of the world’.
    Why is Francis popular? Because he doesn’t call out a sin for what it is, and all the young Catholics of today who follow him wouldn’t know any better.

  10. Ah, Cardinal Mueller’s so simple of an explanation but who is he to lecture us when the Church in Germany is disappearing like a vanishing act. As they say in Germany, clean up your own pig style first before you start telling others how to clean up theirs.

  11. What I want is for a bishop, *any* bishop, but especially a cardinal, to very publicly and unambiguously reaffirm the 2,000 year-old teaching of Jesus Christ concerning marriage to the Apostles, and entrusted to their successors. If that means publicly opposing Francis, so be it. I have no desire for a full blown schism either, but I’m sick and tired of all the waffling. People are losing their faith, and their souls, because of Amoris Laetitia and similar documents.

  12. Papacy is in a tricky spot.
    – If ignored or widely rejected, it’s authority is de facto diminished.
    – If faithfully followed … read any other post here

    Although I viscerally cringe at the hesitancy of other Church leaders to stand tall for Church Teachings/Tradition, and I do not know where their hearts & minds lay,
    I do recognize the difficult spot they are in regarding protecting Papal Authority

    • I agree, except by doing what they are doing, they are diminishing respect for the CHURCH, which diminishes respect for the papacy.

      Related, it is hard for me not to see Pope Francis as the First “Sedevacantist” Pope; the Pope who by his stress on “synodalism” and “decentralization” {all imposed on the Church using a centralized autocratic authority!} and flippantly and cynically using disingenuous methods to effectively change Church teaching {and thus destroy respect FOR Church teaching and the papacy as well} he will leave a gutted papacy after his reign is over. The Pope who doesn’t believe in the doctrines essential to the maintenance of the Papacy.

      I believe it could all backfire, tho, if one single good CATHOLIC man is elected Pope either immediately after him or at some point down the line.

      Of course the Church will break up but that will only formalize what already exists inside the Church today; internal, informal schism with heretics likely the majority.

      Who gets the buildings is anybody’s guess.

  13. “There is a faction of the traditionalist groups, as well as of the progressives, who want to see me as the leader of a movement against the Pope. But I will never do it. I have served the Church with love for forty years as a priest, sixteen years as a professor of dogmatic theology and ten years as a diocesan bishop. I believe in the unity of the Church and I will not let anyone exploit my negative experiences of the last few months.” I remember that German officers before and during WW II were reluctant to oppose Hitler for similar reasons, viz. their loyalty to the army and the honor of the Fatherland. I also remember what their reluctance led to.

  14. Being equidistant doesn’t imply being fair.

    This Rev. Prelate always tries to swim and keep his clothes dry at the same time. That is his choice, but it is not of any reassurance for the flock. He blames the people who surrounds the Bishop of Rome, but is this Bishop the one who chooses the people that surround him.

    I’m sorry, but it seems to me that Cardinal Müller is oblique, and this is not what the Catholic Church needs.

    • “I’m sorry, but it seems to me that Cardinal Müller is oblique, and this is not what the Catholic Church needs.”

      But this is what the institutional CC IS modelling for the world at this point in history.

      Indissoluble marriage…with fast, cheap, “Catholic divorce” annulments handy.

      Doctrine of EENS…with everyone going to heaven.

      Scrapping over communion for adulterers…while contraceptors are all communed.

      Affirming just war….while no war is ever acceptable.

      Possessing 2000 years of teaching on the justice of the death penalty….while no man should ever be executed for any crime, and never even be incarcerated for life.

      I have other things to do, so I can’t extend the list, but you get the drift. the list is not complete, and neither is it short.

      Oblique, indeed.

      • “Condemning abortion…while making sure it stays available and legal by supporting the party that defends it.”

        This is precisely what Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor did in respect of the Hospital of St John & St Elizabeth in London UK. His successor Vincent Nichols managed to get rid of the Order of Malta from the Hospital despite their having been in at its foundation in the 1850s. Well they were led by irritating people like Matthew Festing and the message got through to Rome that he was a nuisance and had to be got rid of.

  15. The Field Hospital seems to be a developement of the Russian or one of the other Orthodox Churches. I first read of it in an article by an Orthodox Archbishop

      • Were the jesuits not for a longer time nowhere else but in Russia under the protectorate of some Russian tzar(in)?
        After suppression of that society by Pope Clement XIV on 21 july 1773. Coincidentally about 1 century later, rightly in that same land the terrible plague of communistic bolshevism broke out…

  16. I deeply respect the Cardinal’s conscientious position although I just as deeply disagree with him. The Church is in de facto interior schism. His good soldier obedience, an act of integrity from his perspective and I believe de jure has value. God doesn’t require everyone to march in lock step and Gerhard’s view may indeed have a significant value if only to exhibit the importance of loyalty to the Church. Evidently he doesn’t fully agree with Pope Francis. Because of his love of the Church the deceptively engineered program of Pope Francis the decision of the former prefect to remain loyal based on positive interpretation of AL seems valid. The crux is the enormous spiritual damage that AL and the Pope’s unwillingness to correct what I’m confidant Cardinal Mueller doesn’t approve of is the decider. Right now he recognizes the dilemma unprecedented in Church History but can’t and apparently including his interviewer Massimo Franco bring himself to accept the reality that a Roman Pontiff can be responsible for not simply causing division but leading multitudes to perdition and eternal suffering. At this moment there is no moral justification for any option except to oppose what Pope Francis clearly and without ambiguity of judgement has caused and continues to inflict upon the Church and Mankind.

    • “can’t…accept the reality that a Roman Pontiff can be responsible for not simply causing division but leading multitudes to perdition and eternal suffering.”

      Yes, because, after all {satire…} the “Holy Spirit picks the Pope” and our job is to “accept” everything we see because “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church” and somebody else down the road is going to fix the problems we pretend don’t exist today.

      • You said it well Rod. it’s perhaps more the Catholics who adhere to Apostolic Tradition and can’t commit themselves to the truth than those who outright condone the new gospel of the Pontiff that are more grievously responsible.

        • What has really helped me is to read the history of the Popes…starting with the Bible. We like to make a big deal about how bad things are today…and they ARE…but my goodness, how would we like it if Papal troops burned our houses down and raped our wives, or we found out the Pope himself was trying to get a good job for one of his kids or a Pope implied we needed to get circumcised in order to be Christians?

          Were all those who resisted such nonsense “bad Catholics”, only “half-converted” or “disloyal to Holy Mother Church”?

          God did not and never has granted the leadership of the Church to Gods or Demi-Gods. Certainly there are things a Pope cannot do, but it seems the list of things God supposedly prevents a Pope from doing has gotten pretty darn long.

          Pope Francis is doing a good job right now of shortening that list.

        • ‘More “intellectual”‘ Those irritating people who come up with rational arguments in support of orthodoxy. To suggest that JPII and BXVI were more intellectual than PF is to suggest that PF rejects reason.

          • Nicolas I’m quite disappointed with Cardinal Mueller’s recent remarks here defending orthodoxy jettisoned in favor of “integration” of everyone and elsewhere referring to Transubstantiation as an apparent outdated metaphysical terminology.

    • Fr Morello: You speak of internal schism. Is not schism a formal separation from the Church as an institution? It seems to me that this is a case of internal heterodoxy nearing heresy.

      • Technically in accord with canon law you’re correct. The term has been used by scholars in this instance of a movement within the Church that is Apostate, meaning a denial of Christ. Theologically refutation of the words of Christ, which is the Deposit of Faith is a repudiation of Christ. St Robert Bellarmine considered the possibility of an apostate Pontiff, that as such might automatically [Latae Sententiae] be apostate and excommunicated. If that were the case those who align themselves with such a Pope would belong to a group outside the fold as schismatic. My use of schism here however refers to the ordinary dictionary definition, a division, split, rift, breach, rupture, break, separation, severance. Although I concede there is a movement within the Church that at least resembles if not actually meets the canonical definition of schism.

  17. Cardinal Muller’s comments concerning the Pope is “wimpy” as usual.
    This Pope is an apostate, heretical and needs to be removed one way or the other, to prevent a schism.
    The Hierarchy needs to have character and courage to assert themselves and effect change.
    Unfortunately, far too many in the Hierarchy are of the same ilk as Francis, thus the Church deteriorates.
    The Church is on a collision course with a Schism

  18. Cardinal Muller seems to be suggesting that the traditionalist orthodox critics of this Papacy are extreme and that there is a danger of those critics going into schism. I think this is rubbish. Okay there are extremists whose comments are over the top but the majority of these critics are rational orthodox Catholics. The last thing they are going to do is to go into schism. They will remain to the Church of Christ. What we are dealing with here is the suspicion of heresy in the higher echelons of the Church. How this will pan out is only known to God. I suspect that under an orthodox Pope we will see a schism by those who position is heretical.

    • I cannot imagine other way, indeed, than that he thinks only faithful Catholic people who ‘stuck’ with the traditional (correct) view of the Catholicism, could be those who might go into schism.
      But then, his statement sounds very odd, when he says: “There is a faction of the traditionalist groups, as well as of the progressives, who want to see me as the leader of a movement against the Pope.”
      What kind of the ‘traditionalist’ must be those who want him to lead them? (Have they asked him?)
      I am afraid, he is really doing his thing(s) with one certain, main purpose/goal in sight,- the seat.

      • It is very hard to take this man seriously for exactly the reasons you say.

        Essentially his delusion appears to be that Traditionalists want him to lead them into schism.

        As you both indicate, Traditionalists are not going into schism. And from what I can tell reading Traditionalist sites, he is about the last guy anyone in the Traditionalist world wants for a leader of anything.

        There might be another angle to what he means here. In his world view, he seems to lack the belief that the Church can be purified, that is, I do not see a committed belief that discipline can play a deciding factor in restoring the Church to a clear Magesterial track. Thus he seems believe that the Church could go one of two directions and he wants to keep his feet firmly planted on both sides of the fence. So if on one hand there is a clarification and restoration of the perennial Magesterium, he “fits in”, and on the other hand if the Church effectively apostatizes and transmogrifies into nothing more than an Italian branch office of the Anglican Communion, he wants to be one of the “in” crowd singing “God Save The King” at Prince Charlie’s coronation.

        • That is quite convincingly assumption Rod.
          But someone with such attitude… I can better say nothing.
          Besides, no one must expect that in the first case scenario of the restoration of perennial Magisterium, all what needs to be done, will be done in a minute or one day. Or easy. Anything but that. It is just too much, what must be almost reverted, not only heretical AL. A lot of things which went (were wrongly changed/invented) wrong a decades ago… All that work will be not granted to him just like that. That would be a truly via crucis for anyone who will be in lead. And for a long time. Unless, of course, it become an intervention from the most, the highest level, the Divine intervention.
          The point is that every man must man up in the crisis times. Not wait until other man have done the heaviest, dirtiest, most difficult and danger works.

        • I don’t know much about Cardinal Mueller’s background, but I have often wondered at his being portrayed as a champion of orthodoxy because I thought I had seen comments online from traditionalists bemoaning his appointment as Prefect of the CDF because, as I understood it, of his reputation for heterodoxy. Did I misremember?

          • I don’t know either but would be interested to find out.

            There is stuff in his past that has lit up Traditionalists but I don’t know what it is, other than his nonsensical arguments we have seen in defense of the orthodoxy of everything that spews out of the pen of the Pope.

          • There still seem to be plenty of catholics of the left who believe it is possible to create a kind of Christian Socialism, and there’s some evidence that Cardinal Mueller was working on a project-maybe his own to reconcile liberation theology or at least salvage parts of it. He co-wrote a book with Gutteriez on liberation theology maybe with such a goal in mind?

          • How important are the words of our Lord, when He says;
            “By their fruits you shall know them.”
            How true, and how actually, easy too. Everyone can be recognized by their fruits. Period.
            We can do researches and researches about every man and try to find some specific words, or works, done by them, BUT the thing IS, their fruits,- IF ANY are there, will tell us everything what we must know.
            In our times, unlike in earlier times, more than ever every Christian can be recognized by his silence then when he HAVE to speak. And this means, a tree without fruits at all. Because we are living now in a very modern times, we can see that some ‘trees’ are shrewd, and because they know their own barrenness, are trying to fool passers-by to let them to swallow their forgeries, which are of course not natural, but fake, artificial, plastic …

            When man must to speak, he shall speak and NOT keep silent.
            Or doing even worse, pronouncing some words, without speaking clearly, meaningfully, fairly and truthfully.
            Saying this, the parable from Matthew 7,15-20 warns us thus, also of those trees which cannot bring forth any fruit when the fruitful time become highest.

  19. We are not asking you, or anyone, to lead a group against the Pope. We ARE asking for people to stand around the Church and the Cross.

    It just so happens that those two positions appear to be about the same thing.

    • Almost.

      I like Muller. But a prelate as high up in the hierarchy as he, has, almost by definition, to be diplomatic. We sheep are not wrong in saying that we are already in crisis. The diplomat, though, needs to remain reticent until the precise moment of no return. I trust that Muller will judge aright, if that happens, and will do the right thing.

        • You nailed it Rod with this:
          “The diplomatic treatment of heresy has brought us to the crisis we face today.”
          Yes. When diplomacy which have nothing with the truth, but rather a constantly, infinite, unfruitful dialogism, become a main business of the BIG ones, the shepherds, then they are already beaten by their opponents.
          Because they (the shepherds have chosen to play on the field and at music of their opponents, instead using their own, by God given weapon,- the Truth of the words of God himself brought and given to them by the Holy Spirit, the perennial Magisterium, Gospel of our Lord, all the books of the Holy Scripture, examples in all God’s Saint’s and their writings…

          • Christian diplomacy: St. Paul told the Christians (I believe at Corinth) that they were perfectly free to eat meat sacrificed to the pagan gods since they were aware that only God is God and the others are false and impotent.

            At the same time, Paul was just as adamant in telling them that they ought not exercise that freedom—for the sake of those whose faith is not yet strong enough and might be scandalized by their actions.

            I’ve already affirmed: we are in crisis. I’m not entirely, yet, that it can’t be reversed.

            When there is a terrorist threat to a city—say one as large as NYC—that could affect tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of citizens—do you risk causing mass panic to millions by announcing it on TV before you’ve exhausted every effort to find and neutralize it?

            The higher up one is in the hierarchy, the greater the number of the faithful to whom one is responsible. I could never operate at that level—but one who does has to take that kind of responsibility more seriously and more circumspectly.

            I am as impatient of this Pope as anyone posting on this page; but I do not see Muller as pusillanimous; merely careful..

          • “merely careful…” until what?
            Let’s say it this way. A real disciple, especially those who are successors of Christ’s apostles should be willing and prepared to die for the Truth, to die with the Truth, to die in the Truth.
            And moreover, it’s not only one who is ‘merely careful’. There are too many, and for a long time already.

            This is what st Paul have said to Timothy:
            “Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus: And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
            Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
            No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses; that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself.
            For he also that striveth for the mastery, is not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
            The husbandman, that laboureth, must first partake of the fruits.
            Understand what I say: for the Lord will give thee in all things understanding.”

            We should ask ourselves is anybody there anymore reading those wonderfully and wisely but also very important words from their predecessors?

          • until what?

            Until something effective can be done.

            I admire martyrs—and those who risk martyrdom—as much as anyone. But, so far, we’ve had the 45 theologians who critiqued “Amoris Laetitia” in June of 2026; the 4 dubia Cardinals, the 62+ souls who put their signatures to the “filial correction”—leading to the dismissal of Professor Seifert—and Father Weinandy…

            We can admire their heroism—and i do. But I’m tired of the cheer-leading, which dies down and leaves us no further ahead.

            Through 8 years of the Bill Clinton presidency, agencies like Judicial Watch kept leading on conservatives with the false promise that they were about to see indictments of both Clintons that would put them behind bars.

            Throughout the 8 years of the Obama administration, the smoking gun that would put an end to his defiance of the Constitution and his unlawful end-runs around Congress.

            None of it ever materialized. Muller in his present situation—however diminished since he was let go from the CDF—still has more access to the necessary levers of power—political power—that are our only rational hope fo stopping the madman in the Vatican.

            I don’t see that squandering that position on martyrdom will bring about anything useful—unless it is the express will of God that things happen that way.

            As Thomas More told his daughter, Meg, in “A Man For All Season:” “It is God’s part and not our own, to bring us to such a pass.”

          • Cardinal Burke has likewise been careful and he is certainly a friend of the TLM. We have already seen what the pope could do to him when he spoke out too strongly. I don’t know what the answer is, as I am a fairly recent TLM catholic convert and my knowledge of the Vatican palace intrigue is weak.

      • The tipping point within the Church is at the level of ideas which are against the Truths which Christ gave us which underpin theology and Christian Civilisation as well.

  20. A few too many men who want to be seen as “good soldiers” and not enough men willing to “make a mess” as the Pope himself suggests.

  21. “an extreme traditionalist position on certain websites and an equally exaggerated progressivist position” – Sorry, this is an ABSURD point of view. The “progressivist” as he says have had hegemony on the church for the last 60 years, they even changed the Mass, for God’s sake! Progressives rule hundreds of dioceses in the world, here in Brazil they are like plage, now show me ONE “extreme traditionalist” diocese in the world, SHOW ME ONE PLEASE! How come are these two things equal?

  22. I sympathize with him and I can sense his horror at the looming schism, and what right prelate wouldn’t want to prevent such a catastrophe? But we must lay sentiment aside and look at the matter with detachment, and if we do this, we must conclude that the schism *is already present* – and has been for quite some time. Cardinal Müller’s remarks above betray it: when the Roman Pontiff counts an unrepentant atheist a close friend, and his prefect of the Holy Office an enemy, the schism is already here. When you have a conspiracy that works in secret to spy out their brother faithful and hound out and remove critics, as he has witnessed, the schism is already here. I think he knows it, but it’s an unthinkable thought (not just for him) so he can’t bring himself to take the last step and state it. But events will continue moving toward their culmination and soon it will be impossible for anyone to deny.

  23. “We must be careful not to confuse the great popularity of Francis, which is also an enormous patrimony for the Catholic world, with a true revival of the faith, even if we all support the Pope in his mission.”

    Muller may be trying to appeal to both sides of this debate and claim that the high road is in the middle ground. But the statement quoted above goes to show that even he is forced to admit that a deeply problematic papolatry has displaced the Mashiach (Jesus) from his rightful throne as our Melekh (King) and replaced him with Francis.

    Considering that we, as Christians, know that Yeshua is none other than our Adonai or the Lord Himself, this is in itself constitutes and serious affront to the First Commandment and one that has been institutionalized in the Church by this point. So much so that a mortal man’s popularity and reputation is (in Muller’s very tempered and carefully thought out words) “an enormous patrimony” to the Church, especially when on considers that it was not described as an “asset” or even as a “great example” but as “an enormous patrimony”).

    Even if Muller was right (and, in a sense, I think he is) and acting against the authority of the Pope was exactly what the rebel angels wanted us to do, the current state of affairs and the polarization in the Church can hardly be ascribed to the actions or intentions of well meaning but somewhat desperate “conservatives/traditionalists”. In doing so, one risks seriously underestimating the overall corruption be it moral, religious or philosophical that has overtaken the curia since VII’s “spirit” removed any attempt to even try in the first place.

    Even outside observers have much to teach us about this and just like W.B. Yeats had to say, the center didn’t hold before and it won’t hold now. The lines in the sand have been drawn, and I think that, contra Muller, we can legitimately ask alongside Gerald McDermott, the anglican theologian: Is the Pope Catholic?

  24. Just a small correction: Emma Bonino is no “catholic politician”. She’s a radical who practised countless backstreet abortions in the 70’s and bragged about it too. She killed thousands of babies and never repented. Now that she recently got ill with cancer she discovered a very generic sense of spirituality and is an adept of “migrantism”, the new religion which involves importing migrants to Europe. She’s a creature of evil and a typical example of the people with whom Bergoglio loves to be surrounded.


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