It is a curious conceit of an obtuse generation that it believes itself to be committed to modernity, embodied by devotion to science and reason, and yet is so irrevocably immutable to evidence.
The spiritual (but not religious) Mecca of modernity in the Catholic Church is the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the headquarters of which would likely be a smoking ruin if we had a God quick to anger rather than slow.
The absurdity of this very modern institution is embodied perfectly in their recent USCCB statement on their “Commitment To Dialogue With Muslims.”
What is the bottom line? They are so committed to dialogue with Muslims, it seems, that they will persevere in useless dialogue until every last one of us Christians is dead.
“We understand the confusion and deep emotions stirred by real and apparent acts of aggression and discrimination by certain Muslims against non-Muslims, often against Christians abroad,” the bishops wrote. “Along with many of our fellow Catholics and the many Muslims who themselves are targeted by radicals, we wish to voice our sadness, indeed our outrage, over the random and sometimes systematic acts of violence and harassment—acts that for both Christians and Muslims threaten to disrupt the harmony that binds us together in mutual support, recognition, and friendship.”
In the face of a terrifying juggernaut of death and destruction that 50 years of dialogue have done absolutely nothing to stop and arguably encouraged, the USCCB is committed to more of the same. Everyone knows that dialogue with Islam is impossible since there is no monolithic Islam with which to dialogue, so we have endeavored to dialogue merely with its adherents. I think the most humble and unambitious goal of such interreligious dialogue would have been some sort of consensus that, in general, they shouldn’t try to kill us or anyone else. Even with the bar set so low, by any measurement, 50 years of dialogue has been a miserable failure.
So what do we need? More dialogue!!
You know why? You know what the real problem has been? You and I—we are the problem.
“The bishops expressed sadness over “deliberate rejection” of the call to engage in dialogue with Muslims by some Christians, Catholic and not. They noted that the call to respect and dialogue comes from the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate) and has been reaffirmed by subsequent popes. They also noted that, for nearly 20 years, their committee has dialogued with several national Muslim organizations, producing documents on education, marriage and revelation.”
There is no agreement, however, on the value of all human life or even on the need for heads to remain attached to necks.
As I said, no amount of evidence of complete and utter failure of their preferred and ever-so-modern methods are enough to dissuade them from their chosen path. If it hasn’t worked, it’s because all the Christian riff-raff have not been sufficiently on board.
This should come as no surprise as it is exactly the mindset that informs every novelty and impulse of aggiornamento of the last 50 years post-Vatican II. As the Churches empty and close, and committees convene to close Churches by the triple digits, they call the closure committee “Making All Things New.” In the face of the pervasive and manifest failure of aggiornamento, they lament that the spirit of Vatican II, likes its blood brother Communism, has only failed because it has never really been tried. This level of doublespeak and absurd groupthink would astound even Orwell.
One can only shake one’s head in disbelief right up until the moment it gets chopped off.
Most of all, the biggest puzzle in this is why the USCCB won’t listen to the Chaldean Bishops who KNOW what is going on. The Eastern Rite Bishops aren’t begging for dialogue. And they are the experts.
This ^^^
The veil of Islam is lifted and eyes are closed.
Before dialogue, it must be recognized that dialogue on dialogue is first necessary. Islam does not operate under reason, but under force of will.
Great book, highly recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Closing-Muslim-Mind-Intellectual/dp/1610170024
Much like those Church fathers who dealt with Islam before were the experts. But we ‘modern’ folk like to kid ourselves into believing that we know so much better and are above the actions of the past. But that is only because we have not been put to the test. How foolish and provocative.
The test is coming.
Yes, indeed, Maggie. And I pray God we are not fallen asleep, too sleepy to be roused until the enemy is upon us.
“…He said therefore to them, But now he that has a purse let him take [it], in like manner also a scrip, and he that has none let him sell his garment and buy a sword.”
They never include Copts or Chaldeans in their Ecumenical outreach to Muslims.
Chaldean Bishops are second class wannabees in the Catholic episcopate, no more relevant than the barbaric Africans. They simply don’t possess the sophistication nor délicatesse in grave matters of global import. They still think sodomy is a sin.
We’re not far from stones crying out. These martyrs will be avenged by Our Lord Himself. Woe to murderers, and woe to the scandalous on that dreadful day.
I would like to hear more about the connection between the new emphasis on “dialogue-at-any-cost” and the decree from Vatican II
From NOSTRE AETATE:
“…The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.”
Prudence and subsequent witness to the One True Faith is gravely lacking in much interaction.
and from the same document:
“…Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.”
Trouble is, the scenario is like one sided marriage therapy. One party may want to dialogue and get beyond troubles etc, another may not. The other party may also hold vastly different beliefs than the other that WILL NOT be overcome by exhaustive, enforced therapy sessions of ‘we are really the same.’ If anything, for those who follow the tenants of Islam, I would imagine they’d take that as a slap in the face. And highly disrespectful of their beliefs and basic free will.
That said, one also runs into the problem of forgetting things that one should not forget. Forgive past offenses, yes. But forget that there are vast differences in belief, no. For to do this is to negate the very real and necessary actions of our own forefathers who had to respond to the realities of those differences, much like Catholics are having to do right now in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and many other parts of the world. It is also to leave ourselves wide open to repeating mistakes that cost many souls and much blood and will likely do so again if folks don’t wake up to the way life is instead of the way they wish it was.
“They are so committed to dialogue with Muslims, it seems, that they will persevere in useless dialogue until every last one of us Christians is dead.”
We saw this sentiment over at Rorate recently. “If the Pope does not recognize the values of Islam and it is left like that, in twenty seconds we will have destroyed everything that has been built over the last twenty years.”
The only thing unfortunate about the Regensburg affair was the way Pope Benedict apologized & distanced himself from the words of Emperor Manuel II. “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” His son would die in battle as Constantinople fell. And will we sit here today and be ashamed of him?
Yet what we are seeing now is a confirmation of that famous Regensburg speech going on in what was Iraq.
I continually hear of the Church’s “commitment to dialogue” with Muslims…Protestants…etc.
What ever happened to Christ’s instructions to CONVERT people? When did Jesus Christ command His Church to merely “dialogue” with people? The point of any and ALL dialogue was to CONVERT people.
The Church has lost its focus and because it lost its focus, it is hell bent (pun intended) on losing souls rather than gaining them for Christ.
Julie @ Connecticut Catholic Corner
Sadly, well said, Julie. It is the ‘dialogue’ with no purpose save attempting all present to believe nothing that seems to be the order of the day. Or at least the Spirit of VII as the fruits seem to be defection from Truth to error and those in error staying put.
Hell bent is the word.
Islamic belief is fractured into countless thousands of sects, much as the Protestant beliefs are fragmented from the Truth. Neither “dialogue” nor “ecumenism” will bring about the desired changes, (if these changes have even been identified) because of the individualism and isolationist attitudes which are fundamental to these beliefs! An example of Sisyphus in action.
@ HilaryJMW, there is no connection between “dialogue at any cost” and Vatican II. Nor was there any connection between Vatican II and stripping the churches, or turning around the altars, or outlawing Latin, or insisting only on Haugan/Haas and the Saint Louis Jesuits for music, or the 4 hymn sandwich style of worship, or communion in the hand, or…you get my point.Tthe only connection is that all these things are the brainchildren of those who saw the Council as an opportunity to dismantle the Church.
Whatever passes for the “headquarters” of Islam does not want to be dialogued with. They come into our house and ask God to destroy us, in front of the Pope. I don’t need to wish any harm to ordinary people of the Muslim heresy. Quite the contrary, I’m called to love my enemy — but that involves acknowledging that the movement itself is an abomination against the Holy Spirit. Our mission is to preach the full truth, not treat the world like a Venn diagram that we can be happy with in between random outbreaks of child executions and mass grave digging parties.
Kudos. This is not only really well written, it is deadly accurate.
Even better, listen to those who have done lots of research on the subject of Islam, folks like Robert Spencer or Pamela Geller.
Let’s begin the dialogue with: “In every Muslim nation Christians are persecuted and treated as 2nd class citizens. What are you going to do about it specifically?”
Mohammedanism is from the Devil.
AMEN!
The test I use is: “five D s of the demonic: deceive,
degrade, divide, defile, destroy. Whenever these five signs appear something
unspeakably malign is present and active….”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BELDEVIL.HTM
I agree, keep in mind that followers of Islam are deceived.
Mo is a forerunner of Antichrist – & a very convincing one. It is ridiculous for the Popes to object to Nazism & Mormonism, while massaging the ego of Mohammedanism.
So there is possible dialogue with terrorists now? How has it been working so far?
🙂 HASN’T………Yep let’s just keep on ‘dialogueing’ to more of the same. It’s the definition of insanity…….doing the same thing and expecting different results. How hard is it for them to understand that you cannot ‘dialogue’ with these people? They don’t dialogue the way we dialogue. Their brains are programmed to kill anyone that doesn’t convert to their madness. Trying to get this through to the Bishops seems to be akin to trying to ‘dialogue’ with a radical liberal……think through that one for a minute and it’s a very scary thought.
Blithering idiots all.
It’s almost like a Monty Python Sketch. I guess the old farts don’t want the Mohammedans to expect some sort of Spanish Inquisition. I only hope they invite them to sit in the comfy chair. That’ll persuade them.
The USCCB hasn’t lived in reality-land for longer than I’ve been breathing. Even when Catholics were a persecuted minority early in US and pre-US history, the Catholic Bishops were only too happy to say, “Us, too! Forget the Pope!” and etc. “Accommodation” (with Catholics being the ones to accommodate and bend, as the Obama administration expects us to continue to do now,) has been the MO of American Catholicism from the beginning; this is nothing new.
bn Warraq on the Catholic Church’e effete ecumenism:
Nearly ten years ago, I was the guest of the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies (PISAI) of Rome. PISAI is dedicated to interfaith dialogue between Christians and Muslims. But as the director at the time said to me, “There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is.”
Unfortunately, the only thing years of such interreligious diologue has led to is a rising tide of indifferentism, universalism, and semi-universalism. The implied message of 50 years of such nonsense has been that directly and clearly stating our truth-claims are true, and that those of Islam are false, is mean or nasty and must be avoided so that we can all “get along.” How is that working out? We would do much better to direct our efforts at discrediting Islam as a fraud (which, frankly, is easy when you put your mind to it) and thereby convert millions of Muslims to the One True Faith.
It is well known that many demographic segments in the world today, have more of an affinity with one another than with their own neighbors, countrymen, or even religion. This is especially true of certain white collar segments of society, where you see two lawyers or doctors or engineers or retailers from completely different countries, but who have more in common with one another than they do with the person living across the street from them.
With the USCCB, we see this same problem. They dialogue with like minded people. In the case of Muslims, they dialogue with people who will dialogue back, and thus you have largely faithless Catholics in dialogue with faithless Protestants, faithless secularists, and faithless Muslims.
The problem with this, is that true Islam is murderous, bloodthirsty, and demonic. Real Muslims equate the Muslims who dialogue with the likes of the USCCB with the Catholics of the USCCB themselves, and would murder them along with Catholics as the Kafir they are. Kafir is the Arabic slur for an unbeliever, such as moderate Muslims, or Catholics.
In my opinion, this goes beyond Modernity. It is straight Liberalism of the 19th century kind, and it refuses to see that true Muslims are committed to Jihad, and see this weak-kneed Liberalism for the faithless cancer it is on Western society. It is why Europe is already dead, and the Muslims didn’t need to even fire a shot to do it. They simply move there, smile as Liberalism eats itself, and they slowly take over without having to shed a drop of blood, because the abortaficient, contraceptive secularists of Europe are murdering themselves out of existence.
Far & away, your last paragraph is most cogent & perceptive. Europe is morally, physically & spiritually dead. They have taken Europe. Remember Pope Benedict XVI and the Regensburg speech? Remember how the moderate and dialogue worthy Mohammdeans spoke? They don’t want dialogue. We can try and talk to various Mohammedan leaders who were mentioned in other comments who may help, but…. really? Do our bishops understand the First Crusade. The enemy is the same.
we are living in the “AGE of COMPROMISE” !!!! Oh, how Our Dear Lord compromised, not ONE IOTA!!!
With few exceptions, the only use I have of liberal priests and bishops is the consecration of hosts and their other sacramental duties. What they “think” and what they “say” in the organized political sphere is often anathema so I have no choice but to avoid and ignore it. Why” because like Jesus instructed, cut off any part of your body that causes it to sin, so I cut off my eyes and ears figuratively due to the bad temper it incites in me. I must ignore it.. I am giving nothing to the Bishop’s Appeal this year as well because I have no trust whatsoever in any of the “social” programs it supports. I’ll be a catacomb Catholic if that’s what it takes.
until a few, maybe 10 or more American Bishops actually get killed, or be beheaded by their kind muslim friends, and that day is coming I believe ; they will keep on being nice. Notice who doesn’t compromise your EXCELLENCIES? That’s right, Muslims don’t compromise!
While we can’t dialogue with Islam, we can dialogue with the moderates among.our Muslim neighbors and fellow citizens. I think theological dialogue is pretty much a dead end, but cultural dialogue is worthwhile, even essential. BTW, did you know that the King of Bahrain has offered refuge to 200 Christian families from Mosul? http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/king-of-bahrain-offers-to-help-200-christian-families-from-mosul
Vatican Insider at La Stampa has an important article on what ISIS wants, and how political dialogue and joint action with moderate Muslims is wiser than a Western invasion (which is just what ISIS is hoping for).
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/iraq-irak-introvigne-35980
Please point out one Moderate Imam, and then point out his call to stop murdering the “infidel”.
Good point, Mme_Chantal! Paul did not stop his dialogue with the pagans and the Jews, just because they persecuted Christians. We are not the first generation to face the lions.
What exactly is “cultural dialogue”?
I’m no expert on cultural dialogue ,but Pope Benedict called for it at the end of his Regensburg lecture. I think it’s possible to fully endorse Dominus Jesus, as I do, and also want to be in conversation with our neighbors who are Muslims. One key topic in cultural dialogue is healthy pluralism, which is needed to protect the Christians and other non-Muslims in Africa and the Middle East. The Oasis Foundation (founded by Cardinal Angelo Scola) is engaging in cultural dialogue.. Remi Brague of the Sorbonne (who is not afraid to highlight the differences between Christianity and Islam) is on board, as is Carl Anderson, head of the Knights of Columbus.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic-and-muslim-leaders-meet-for-dialogue-on-secularism/
My question stands. Catch phrases and words such as cultural dialogue only confuse or obscure the matter at hand. There is no “cultural pluralism in Islam. Minority religions are persecuted at best, and wiped out at worst. You cannot “dialogue” with such people. Since the rise of the Wahhabi reform movement in Islam, we’ve had 80 years of “dialogue”; and all we’ve gotten out of it is the destruction of Christian cultures in Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Ethiopia, Algeria, and Egypt. The people of Niger, Thailand, and the Philippines are currently getting a taste of Muslim dialogue. Heck, in many large urban areas of Europe, non-Muslims dare not enter (ask the Hindus who used to thrive in London’s East End).
We need to end the fiction of post-modern conflict resolutions. We do not at our own peril.
What a joke already!!! Our Catholic Brothers to the East face genocide and our emasculated modernist soft Bishops want dialogue… They don’t want to dialogue ladies, they want your heads!!!
Archbishop Amel Nona, now living in exile in Erbil, in Kurdistan Iraq, commented on his diocese in Mosul being overrun by radical Islamists.
“Our sufferings today are the prelude of those that you, Europeans and Western Christians, will also suffer in the near future,” said the archbishop. “I lost my diocese. The physical setting of my apostolate has been occupied by Islamic radicals who want us converted or dead. But my community is still alive.”
“Please, try to understand us,” he said. “Your liberal and democratic principles are worth nothing here. You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever growing number of Muslims.”
“Also, you are in danger,” said the archbishop. “You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles.”
Qq
“You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal,” said Archbishop Nona. “Your values are not their values. If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home.”
Pope Urban II pray for us and our modernist Bishops…
“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” – St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325
True dialogue should bring one to conversion. It’s in charity and love for your soul that we should preach Christ crucified and further that the Catholic Church is the authority and the fullness of that truth. We don’t talk like this anymore and we need to, probably because they don’t believe it. And if we lose our lives because of it so be it. We need to ask our Lord to raise up strong holy men to guide and protect the Church, to be true Fathers. Sad to say most of the leaders in the Church have become effeminate.
Relativists see all religions as somewhat the same. Christianity is just another expression of that same human impulse that generated Islam. With Modernism and Relativism ascendant in Our Church, one may pose the question; are the Bishops Christian and is the Pope a Catholic?
Tragically, the only thing that will stop this madness is war. Judgment is upon us.
No more dialogue! Bring on Charles Martel!
It’s time to end the scourage of Islam PERIOD.
Enough is enough. Why can’t Bill Gates or any multi billionaire Christians out there concerned enough to raise a private army of crusaders the way the nobles of the 11th century used their wealth to finance the Holy Crusades??? Then again, why can’t the Vatican raise one?
Yeah! That’s why the council fathers were so unanimously against all those things happening! Oh, wait…
This statement by the USCCB caught me by surprise as well. As one who lived and studied in the Holy Land for several years, I have substantial doubts that the path of dialogue will result in anything but status quo until a critical approach to Islamic teachings is allowed. And even if this critical approach is allowed, can a moderate Islam arise when the founder practiced, sanctioned and commanded violence in the name of God as found in the Koran and venerated Hadith? If Muhammed is the most noble model of virtue and Islamic behavior, how could this moderate version ever gain real traction? The Law of Abrogation or Nasikh dismisses any notion that Muhammed’s more peaceful commands related to Christians, Jews and other infidels are to be followed because they came before the more hostile and radically violent ones later. The latter revelations to Muhammed always trump the earlier ones. Pope Benedict’s critique and questioning at Regensburg remains valid and applicable; until this is addressed, the clash of civilizations, tragically, will continue.
This is what happens when Saudi Arabia gives tens of millions of dollars to “cathlyck” Georgetown, with it’s inter-religious dialogue center.
Great article! Nostra Aetate is a disgrace. The entire specious idea of “dialogue” springs from the poisonous well of modernism. The USCCB is a Marxist political organization that cares more about “social justice” than the salvation of souls.
You can’t dialogue with the heresy of Islam. Not once have I ever seen a Muslim at a pro-life rally or at a pro-traditional marriage rally. They have nothing in common with us. They are liars and deceivers — their faith commands them to lie to help the spread of Islam. They are here to colonize and conquer.
NA is BS
When will Pat Archbald say that Vatican Council II says ( and which should be said in dialogue) that all Muslims are oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church .
DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACH THAT MUSLIMS ARE SAVED ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/02/does-catholic-church-teach-that-muslims.html#links
Mohammad in Vatican Council II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/09/mohammad-in-vatican-council-ii.html#links
Vatican Council II and Islam : two interpretations
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/09/vatican-council-ii-and-islam-two.html#links
USCCB Doctrinal Committee on Islam : confusion over exceptions
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/09/usccb-doctrinal-committee-on-islam.html#links
THE OFFICIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THIS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/07/the-official-teaching-of-catholic.html#links
More evidence that the ‘bernardin’ types are still in control of the USCCB.
The Western leadership (political or ecclesiastical, Catholic or not) exemplifies the saying, “The lights are on, but nobody’s home”. Those who haven’t checked out get Borked, or Burked, respectively.