Image: Coppo di Marcovaldo, The Hell (c. 1301)
In our 9 October report about recent comments made by papal confidant Fr. Antonio Spadaro as regards the moral law, we added a post-publication update about a new conversation between Pope Francis and Eugenio Scalfari. Scalfari, who has become a favorite interviewer of Pope Francis, is the atheist founder of the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, known for his unconventional method of reconstructing interviews from memory, rather than using direct quotations. (Although Scalfari’s recounting of the pope’s more controversial words have thus often been dismissed by members of the Catholic press as unreliable, the pope’s insistence in continuing to seek out Scalfari for candid interviews and on-the-record discussions should put to rest any claim that he has been misrepresented.)
In the latest instance, while reviewing Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia’s new book, Scalfari quotes the pope as saying that among the bishops of the Catholic Church there is a lot of relativism. Scalfari then quotes Francis as saying*:
We believers and of course above all we priests and we bishops believe in the Absolute, but each in their own way because each one has his own head and thought. So our absolute truth, shared by us all, is different from person to person. We do not avoid discussions in the case where our different thoughts confront each other. So there is a kind of relativism among us as well. [emphasis added]
Scalfari then adds his own thoughts about the pope’s and Archbishop Paglia’s own distinct idea that hell is empty:
Pope Francis, preceded in this [view] by John XXIII and Paul VI, but, with a more revolutionary force with respect to ecclesial theology, has abolished the places where, after death, souls must go: Hell, Purgatory, Paradise. Two thousand years of theology have been based on this kind of afterlife, which even the Gospels confirm. However, it is with some attention to the theme of Grace — that is in part due to the letters of Saint Paul (to the Corinthians and the Romans) and partly even more so to Augustine of Hippo. All souls are endowed with Grace, and so they are born perfectly innocent and they remain so unless they take the path of evil. If they are aware of it and do not repent even at the moment of death, they are condemned. Pope Francis, I repeat, has abolished the places of eternal dwelling in the afterlife of souls. The thesis held by him is that the souls dominated by evil and not repentant cease to exist while those who are redeemed from evil will be assumed into beatitude, contemplating God. This is the thesis of Francis and also of Paglia. [emphasis added]
As Vatican expert Sandro Magister has reported before, Scalfari previously quoted Pope Francis as saying: “In a millennium or so our human species will be extinguished and souls will merge with God.”
And in 2015, Pope Francis was again quoted by Scalfari: “What happens to that lost soul? Will it be punished? And how? The response of Francis is distinct and clear: there is no punishment, but the annihilation of that soul.”
These quite heretical statements that are attributed to Pope Francis himself — and which he still has not publicly denied — are now also attributed to the new head of the Pontifical Academy for Life and Grand Chancellor of the re-organized John Paul II Institute on Marriage and Family Sciences. His new book, therefore, should be carefully studied and analyzed.
In context — under the premise that there is no eternal punishment for sin anymore — this new Bergoglian era now makes much more sense. If Hell is not to be feared, what impediment is there to keep us from moving in the direction of moral relativism and doctrinal laxity?
It thus becomes more urgent for faithful Catholics who are determined to remain loyal to the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church to continue, in their own organizations and publications, to resist such violations of God’s truth which are already producing grave effects on the moral behavior of Catholics with regard to contraception, abortion, and adultery. Professor Josef Seifert has laid his finger into the wound of Pope Francis’ teaching, namely: that there seems to be no intrinsically evil act any more.
*Translation by Andrew Guernsey
What the (annihilation of the soul)?
Ha ha. I see what you did there.
“Pope Francis, preceded in this [view] by John XXIII and Paul VI, but, with a more revolutionary force with respect to ecclesial theology, has abolished the places where, after death, souls must go: Hell, Purgatory, Paradise. Two thousand years of theology have been based on this kind of afterlife, which even the Gospels confirm. However, it is with some attention to the theme of Grace — that is in part due to the letters of Saint Paul (to the Corinthians and the Romans) and partly even more so to Augustine of Hippo. All souls are endowed with Grace, and so they are born perfectly innocent and they remain so unless they take the path of evil. If they are aware of it and do not repent even at the moment of death, they are condemned. Pope Francis, I repeat, has abolished the places of eternal dwelling in the afterlife of souls. The thesis held by him is that the souls dominated by evil and not repentant cease to exist while those who are redeemed from evil will be assumed into beatitude, contemplating God. This is the thesis of Francis and also of Paglia. [emphasis added]”
Utter and complete garbage. Scalfari is woefully ill-informed.
If it was true that unrepentant souls would simply vanish to nothingness then why is
Satan and his dark angels along with the damned ( failed souls) allowed to roam, tempt,
rage and destroy the joy of life made manifest in God and His Order and Will.
This quote (if correct) regarding annihilation and not eternal pain is SO dangerous. This
Pope opens so many doors to speculation vis a vis the divine mysteries that indeed the
Evil One is at work, he ( francis ) is letting all the flies in…..
A much more qualified and brilliant mind Origen was condemned for errors of similar
construct much earlier in Church history.
I think they would tell you that hell is a medieval myth. We should pray they don’t wake up in there.
what they really mean to say is that the Church is wrong and they are right
Not even that Eric. God is wrong and they are right!
They think the Church is just a human invention to keep people in line. Or worse! to subjugate and exploit them!!
I think Origen is amongst the greatest exegetes….like you said, he was far more qualified than most prelates today to discuss scripture and theology
This reminds me of the wonderful story about the 19th century Anglican cleric Frederic Farrar, who seems to have been shakey on the traditional doctrine of Hell. Allegedly a London workman rushed out of one of Farrar’s services and shouted: “Good news, mates, old Farrar says there’s no ‘ell!”
There seems to be a lack of people spreading this Good News from the lips of Francis. I would have thought that even the secular press might have got excited for a few hours. Any confirmation from other sources or desperate denials from the usual apologists for Francis?
I blame “Google Translation”.
“No one can be condemned forever, because that isn’t the logic of the Gospel!” … Bulls***. Sorry, but heresy is bovine excrement, and as soon as I heard that, I am reporting exactly the word that came to mind.
A strange statement since the Gospel is the revelation of the Son of God – the Logos, not a series of man-made deductions about existence.
If it is true that Francis really does not believe in Satan and eternal damnation in hell, this means that his frequent references to “the Devil” in his homilies and addresses are just so much theatrical play acting. He’s simply an actor reciting memorized lines from the screenplay which was written for him by the trusty scribes who prepare his allocutions. His words are empty. A fraud, in other words.
Malachi Martin has stated that in the end times, the anti Christ will not even believe in God.
I don’t think that is accurate. The Antichrist will believe in God as Satan believes in God and will join his master in rebellion against Him.
I’ll have to see what Malachi has to say about the anti Christ. Since he read the Third Secret, his opinion is more valid than most.
https://www.romancatholicman.com/things-accelerate-toward-the-end-prophecy-of-archbishop-fulton-sheen/
Things Accelerate Toward the End – Prophecy of Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Things Accelerate Toward the End – Prophecy of Archbishop Fulton Sheen
https://www.romancatholicman.com/things-accelerate-toward-the-end-prophecy-of-archbishop-fulton-sheen/
Or “the Devil” as one of those talking animals in fables, for us plebeians who have not yet grown to modernist sophistication. We need some stories to understand concepts. But in inner circles with the cool guys like Scalfari these things can be discarded.
Not only that but he’s playacting as Pope as well if he denies the existence of Hell, as it is impossible to have his position and not know that belief in Hell is dogma, the denial of which separates one’s soul from the Church.
This is what is so confusing to some. He does indeed talk out of both sides of his mouth.
He’s been doing that since Day One of his pontificate. Nothing new there.
That’s why I stopped paying attention to what he said, and paid attention to what he did. Or what he doesn’t do. He talks big talk about the devil and abortion, but invites pro-aborts (or permits them to attend) to Church functions. He claims to care about the poor, but supports politicians whose policies create more poverty and misery (for example, Venezuela).
You hit the nail on the head. Not only does he not believe in Satan, he doesn’t believe in God either. If he did he wouldn’t be mocking the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, what do you do with stories of relevance of even today? An individual black man is on trial in Mississippi for setting a young white woman on fire in her car after a sex and drug episode. Firefighters found her burning before she died. This same sorry individual stabbed an Asian woman in the face some fifty times in Louisiana to try and force her to give up her pin number.—I would say that this is evil. There is no liberal grounds for the evils of society causing this unfortunate behavior. It is pure evil and must be punished by God. There is no remorse evident, just bravado.—Francis has a lot to answer for with his “lack of belief” in sin also according to an interview with Eugenio Scalfari in November of 2015. He stated that all evil is caused by social inequity. This would seem to make this lousy individual the victim and these two sad young women as being the harbingers of an evil racist and sexist society.—– My beloved Irish grandmother had only a third grade education. She did not cry. She did not sell drugs. She did not prostitute her body.—- There is evil in the world and we have a pope who is causing confusion and turmoil because he does not believe in evil and its resultant cause of sin which cries out for justice and not for mercy.
Pray rosaries and manifest your belief in Jesus. Remember the last supper, “Peter, when you are converted you will strengthen the faithful…” Peter was with Jesus Christ true God, true man for three years – cast out demons, did miracles and saw great miracles and still screwed up. Jesus says we should bless our enemies. Pray for them. So let us do that instead of slander.
Sadly, Pope Francis is being persistent about denying the existence of Hell. His unorthodox belief was originally reported in 2015—well before the controversies addressed in the Filial Correction. Not much commentary about it then but now he is digging in his heels. His persistence should be taken seriously, especially by the bishops. The existence of Hell is a Catholic truth that must be believed by the faithful. Not an open question; Jesus wasn’t just trying to scare people when he taught about Hell. So where are the bishops? Why wouldn’t their responsibility be that, without they should refute the pope and point out to him that any obstinance on his part would lead to an excommunicable heresy?
Most of the bishops probably agree with him. The rest, except for a notable few, have no spines.
“We do not avoid discussions in the case where our different thoughts confront each other.”
I guess in the case of the dubia and public correction, he means discussions with Tucho and the boys?
Pope Francis is such a coward. Real men say what they believe–especially if they lead a religion. Instead he lets a journalist quote him “from memory” and neither confirms nor denies the heresy. Catholic/modernist/liberal/orthodox/whatever, SAY WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVE YOU COWARD!
Silence is concurrence.
So so pray to God for him as Jesus instructed us to pray even for our enemies and bless them. Take a knee and say a rosary.
And than act.
It’s not cowardice. Francis is instructing his proxies to furrow and manure heresies deep in the life and doctrines of the Church – while he maintains the utility of his (public) personality.
What you see is something quite clever, long-term, the culmination of their “along walk through the institutions”.
Tossing our anger and bewilderment against history, and its precedents, for understanding is interesting and useful, but, in the end, not effective. Many readers here will disagree, but Luther is not the template. Something utterly other is at play here. My “spiddy sense” says so. That is why Francis can both use Luther and ignore the truth of him. The pope’s anchoring reference is, as we said, something utterly other.
Pray for him then – and God will handle it.
Amen
God will handle it by using us to act for Him.
Pray, speak out against him and than act.
Pray for him – bless and do not curse – pray for your enemies. Say rosaries and complain to the almighty and have faith that Jesus will convert him and us as well. Remember the last supper – “Peter, when you are converted you will strengthen the brethren…” Let us pray our rosaries and let them speak miracles with the Holy Saints.
Hell exists and, because it does, in His mercy God has also created purgatory. Even less than oil and water good and evil cannot coexist. Purgatory purges the repentant and forgiven souls of the residual and temporal effects of sin. It is a cleansing where the scrubbing is done by fire. Many a child who has accidentally or intentionally gotten paint on his or her skin well knows the pain of having the skin scrubbed clean with soap, water and a stiff bristle scrub brush. Purgatory is like that for the soul. Pope Francis is partiallu correct in saying that unrepentant souls are annihilated. Even Holy Scripture tells us that the wicked will be utterly destroyed. And Jesus makes it quite clear that hell does, indeed, exist. The destruction or annihilation of the evil person, however, doesn’t occur instantaneously at the moment of death. It is a slow, all consuming extinction whereby everything – physical, mental, emotional. Spiritual – every thought, every hope, every dream, every want, every plan, every memory, every motive, every word, every act, every merit, every absolution, every grace and every atom and particle is completely and totally and utterly consumed by fire so that the incandescent flame that was the evil person only finally dies when the very last speck of the person is consumed. And that consumption is never complete until the end of eternity.
Is there going to be an end to eternity?
I heard eternity eloquently described thus: imagine you had a teaspoon and you filled that spoon with material from the Rocky Mountains, walked to the Atlantic Ocean, poured out the material, walked back to the Rockies and then proceeded to repeat the process until you had entirely flattened the Rockies and dumped its contents into the Atlantic. That wouldn’t be 50%, 5%, .05% of your time in eternity: it would be nothing.
St. Anthony the Abbot (a/k/a St. Anthony of the Desert) who lived from 251 AD (THINK ABOUT THAT, FOLKS! 1800 years ago!) into the fourth century said that a sure sign of the end times will be when:
“Men will surrender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day’s problems. When the Church and the world are one, then those days are at hand.”
Folks, we all know public revelation ended with the Bible–we do not have to believe anything thereafter. If you do, however, you’d be hard pressed to explain how this prophecy does not describe these times.
This prophecy of him came true too.
“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, ‘You are mad; you are not like us.’”
But a nice sequel to this we can read in the book of Wisdom 5.:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Wisdom+5&version=DRA
I don’t know why, since there’s nothing here I didn’t know or at least suspect before, but this leaves me with a feeling of near dread. These men fear nothing. Nothing.
… while others are afraid of them. Who actually should/must not be afraid.
How odd is that!
It’s like we live in crazy land.
The auto-demolition of the Church continues.
This line of thinking (a collective consciousness-type merging of souls into God) seems more esoteric (masonic?) than Catholic. If memory serves, Christ spoke more of Hell than Heaven. He also spoke directly about adultery. What’s strange coming from Rome is that some of the most obvious (and hard) Truths spoken by Jesus are outrightly replaced with something that attempts to tickle the ears. As a result of this denial, it follows that the Papal kneeler is left empty before the tabernacle and the alter boy–with folded hands–scolded for piety.
The recent University of Notre Dame speech given by Father Antonio Spadaro is also revealing: “The Pope rejects the mixing of politics, morals, and religion that leads to the use of a language that divides reality between the absolute Good and the absolute Evil, between an axis of evil and an axis of good.”
Translation: “Everything is relative.”
So we see not only the Denial of Hell and Purgatory, but also quite possibly the DENIAL OF HEAVEN??? And substituted for it is the Kaballastic notion that our souls merge with and into God?
I wonder, too.
If true, then the line “In a millennium or so our human species will be extinguished and souls will merge with God,” attributed to Pope Francis is by far the most disturbing for me.
It’s such a specific assertion, and one entirely alien to any kind of Christian context, such that it seems to be one piece of a larger belief system that the pope has been taught and now believes. I don’t recognize this specific teaching, but it has a Teilhardian, Aquarian Age, neo-pagan sound to it. I’m not trying to exaggerate when I say that this disturbs me deeply. If this is what the pope truly believes, then I suspect that a highly-significant clue has just been dropped.
I’ve written this before, and I think one the comment boards for this blog: I do not believe that Francis and many of the bishops believe in eternal life, period. Why else would they be so worried about making people happy in this life by letting them have (sacrilegious) Holy Communion? They act as if this life is all there is.
No punishment and no sin. Why did we need a Savior then? We surely need one again now…
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and of Christ Jesus our hope:
2 To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord.
3 As I desired thee to remain at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some not to teach otherwise,
4 Not to give heed to fables and endless genealogies: which furnish questions rather than the edification of God, which is in faith.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.
6 From which things some going astray, are turned aside unto vain babbling:
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither the things they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for the just man, but for the unjust and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the wicked and defiled, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For fornicators, for them who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 Which is according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which hath been committed to my trust.”
Pope Francis = The False Prophet
Eva: this is a violation of the 1P5 comment policy; please delete this
comment, and refrain in the future from making such statements.
https://www.romancatholicman.com/things-accelerate-toward-the-end-prophecy-of-archbishop-fulton-sheen
Things Accelerate Toward the End – Prophecy of Archbishop Fulton Sheen
I encourage all to read this.
We should pray and not slander. All these accusations against the Pope are shadowy and his direct statements seem confused. Saint Peter made allot of mistakes so we ought to pray for the Pope and not slander him. Certainly there is a heaven and certainly there is a hell and a devil. We should pray to enter the narrow gate of repentance – prayer with fasting, alms, forgiveness of others, confession of sins and humility. And in humility we pray for others with the Saints as our sins are like the sands of the sea, but the Saints are righteous, eternal and alive for God is God of the living, not God of the dead.
St Peter’s mistakes were before the out pouring of the Holy Ghost. After that he made very little mistakes as Pope.