Cardinal Silvio Oddi, who died in 2001, was one of the most outspoken conservative prelates of his time. He also has a special place in the history of the debate about the message of Fatima, inasmuch as he insistently tried to get Pope John XXIII to publish the Third Secret of Fatima. As the British newspaper The Telegraph reported upon his death:
In yet another unguarded interview, published in 1990, Cardinal Oddi spoke about his relationship with John XXIII. In the early 1960s, when acting as his secretary, he told the Pope: “Most Holy Father, there is one thing for which I cannot forgive you”. The Pope, surprised, asked what it was. Oddi replied that he had not revealed the Third Secret of Fatima, conveyed to three Portuguese children by the Virgin Mary in 1917, which had been scheduled for release in 1960. [emphasis added]
“Let’s not talk about it,” replied the Pope. Oddi said he had already delivered a hundred sermons and speeches on the subject. “I told you not to mention it,” said the Pope.
When recently going through the archives of my husband, Dr. Robert Hickson, with regard to another matter, I happened to find a file on the Fatima debate. In it, there was to be found the famous interview which Cardinal Oddi gave, in April of 1990, to the international monthly journal 30 Days. Since the interview is not available on the journal’s own website, I shall quote from the hard copy from my husband’s archive, but here is a link to the same interview, even though this link says that the interview was published by another journal, Il Sabato magazine. I shall present parts of this interview to our readers who might be still in the process of learning more about Fatima, just as I do.
Cardinal Oddi, who had been had been the secretary of Archbishop Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli — later Pope John XXIII — during the time the latter served as the apostolic nuncio in Paris, said in the 1990 interview that he did not believe that the then-unpublished Third Secret was mainly about developments in Russia, with Gorbachev and his perestroika, and such. He responds to the question whether he agrees with this Russian thesis, as follows:
No, on the contrary, I remain very skeptical. I believe I knew John XXIII quite well, since I spent a number of years at his side when he was at the nunciature in Paris. If the Secret had concerned realities consoling for the Church like the conversion of Russia or the religious rebirth of eastern Europe, I believe that he would have brought pressure to bear to make the Secret public.
By temperament he did not hesitate to communicate joyful things (it has been revealed that Cardinal Roncalli in a number of letters to friends practically announced his election to the papacy). But when I asked him during an audience why in 1960, when the obligation to keep the Secret secret had come to an end, he had not made public the last part of the message of Fatima, he responded with a weary sigh. He then said: “Don’t bring that subject up with me, please …” [emphasis added]
Later in that same interview, Cardinal Oddi explains his own theory concerning the content of the Third Secret of Fatima:
What happened in 1960 that might have been seen in connection with the Secret of Fatima? The most important event is without a doubt the launching of the preparatory phase of the Second Vatican Council. Therefore I would not be surprised if the Secret had something to do with the convocation of Vatican II… [emphasis added]
When asked, “Why do you say that?” Oddi responds, in part:
From the attitude Pope John showed during our conversation, I deduced – but it is only an hypothesis – that the Secret might contain a part that could have a rather unpleasant ring to it. John XXIII had convened the Council with the precise intention of directing the forces of the Church toward the solution of the problems that concern all of humanity, beginning from within. That is, he intended the work to begin with the evangelical perfection pursued by consecrated persons … But we all know that, despite the great merits of the Council, many sad things have also taken place. These sad things are not due to the Council, but they took place in conjunction with the Council. I am thinking, for example, of the number of priests who have abandoned the priesthood: it is said that there have been 80,000. But one only has to recall the anguish with which the Holy Father, Paul VI, in 1968 cried out against the “autodemolition” taking place in the Church [to include the “smoke of Satan” quote].
Concluding his own reflections upon the possible content of the Third Secret of Fatima, Cardinal Oddi adds:
This: that I would not be surprised if the Third Secret alluded to dark times for the Church: grave confusions and troubling apostasies within Catholicism itself … If we consider the grave crisis we have lived through since the Council, the signs that this prophecy has been fulfilled do not seem to be lacking [emphasis added]
These words might resound in the words of Sister Lucia of Fatima that have been reported just today in a Catholic World Report interview with Kevin J. Symonds, a Fatima scholar, who now quotes the seer as having written a letter to Pope Paul VI:
“In her letter, Sr. Lúcia spoke about a ‘diabolical revolt’ that was being ‘promoted by the powers of darkness’ with ‘errors’ being made against God, His Church, her doctrines and dogmas,” Symonds told Catholic World Report. “She said the Church was going through an ‘agony in Gethsemane’ and that there was a ‘worldwide disorientation that is martyring the Church.’ She wrote to encourage Paul VI as the Vicar of Christ on earth and to tell him of her and others’ steadfastness to him, to Christ and His Church in the midst of the revolt.”
In 1984, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had given an interview to Jesus magazine (also this document I found in my husband’s archives, but I give here a link available on the Internet) in which the prelate responds to the question as to why the Third Secret had not yet been revealed, as follows:
Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it [the Third Secret] adds nothing (literally: “nothing different”) to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the “novissimi” (the last events at the end of time). If it is not made public — at least for the time being — it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational (literally: “for sensationalism”). But the things contained in this “Third Secret” correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for “salvation.” [emphasis added]
As we continue to see our historic Catholic Faith attenuated, diminished and undermined by the day – much of it still being done in the name of the “Spirit of the Council” – and often by high-ranking prelates themselves, we cannot stop reflecting upon what Cardinal Oddi’s own well-considered theory about the Third Secret was. The Third Secret – that is, the vision – as we now have seen it putatively fully revealed in 2000, does not explain to us the danger of apostasy, nor the other dangers threatening the Faith.
I myself cannot imagine that Our Lady, in 1917 and afterwards, would not want us to be forewarned about what was to come in the years after 1960, if certain things were not loyally done. May there, pray God, soon be more truth and light to come to us in this important matter, at the end of the 100th Anniversary of the apparitions of Fatima.
It is so unfortunate that, along with all the other evils inflicting the church, we have to add that popes and cardinals have deliberately been lying about the Third Secret. Jp2, Benedict, Francis and many cardinals. Even worse, I just read the new biography of Sr Lucy “a pathway under the gaze of Mary” within which we are given a number of direct and referenced quotes from Lucy herself saying that the full secret was the vision of the pope and bishops getting killed by bullets and arrows. The evidence is so compelling that the full secret is unreleased, but on the other side there are so many authorities saying to the contrary. What is going on? Who to trust!?
Father, we were given the infallible assurance of what to believe in three ex cathedra pronouncements defining that “outside the Church there is no salvation.” This dogma seemed, to the world, to have been denied in 1949 when the priest professing it was silenced, expelled from the Jesuit order and became the object of a “letter from the Holy Office” suggesting there IS salvation outside the Church. When the Council did nothing to support the dogma of “no salvation outside the Church,” it probably left Catholic priests asking themselves, “why stay IN if everyone is being saved OUTSIDE the Church? Why suffer the slings and arrows of the priesthood when we hear the siren song of the world, the flesh and the devil?” 80 thousand defected? Didn’t that give anybody a clue???
The minds of conspiracy theorists never cease to surprise…
Dear Madam, be assured that my work in this regard is based on more than just theories. If I had not received some strong indications directly from people in Rome that there is more than what is published, I would not write what I am writing. You might one day be surprised.
Rumors and hearsay! Either say what you know or stop baiting the public!
How impolite. Care to make a follow up comment that is of more value to the conversation?
The minds of conspiracy deniers never cease to surprise…
Some people can’t look at the hard truths. It’s too difficult.
Yes and perhaps its best for them, instinctively they might be
aware that their mental state could crash, facing a tsunami of doubt
they would not have the mental fortitude to control.
You have, presumably, studied the question in depth over many years and, as result, you have, with complete objectivity and intellectual honesty, come to the inescapable conclusion that “it’s all conspiracy theory”. Therefore, may I request, with the utmost respect, that you enlighten the rest of us. Or are you fearful that that could make the rest of us as smart as you are?
Doctor Hickson refers to Kevin Symonds as a Fatima scholar and he disbelieves the notion of a conspiracy. Your appeal to authority and/or character is inadequate.
Only a fool might believe that Our Lady will give us further warning. Our Lady of Victory could appear 100 feet tall in Times Square and a week later it would be “old news” and the world would be back to waiting with baited breath for the next Tweet inspired Congressional fist fight with a paid leftist protester audience. We are far too entrenched in our own subjectivity to care the slightest about anything she might say.
No. There will be nothing further from heaven but the wrath we have collectively begged for.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c5494554dab32a82ef043ce085f7b933ef4d8776c4601b1b23a05bf04dbc1242.jpg
I am saddened to say that I agree with your assessment. We are begging God to destroy us at this point.
Why exactly do you think that we will be “destroyed”?
He has pulled His protection. We are left to our own accord. How many times did this happen in the Old Testament? The Israelites stopped listening to God and He said, you’re on your own. Disasters did not come at the Hand of God, but rather by nature and human means.
Right now, societally we have told God to shove off. Until we turn back, we have no protection from our enemies. That is the wrath God gives us and we are living it right now.
Look at the world. Look at the Church.
We must pray, fast and do reparation.
It is a grave, grave (typical post-conciliar) mistake to assess Vatican II, like Cdl Odi and many others, as having “many merits”. Vatican II was the sham that Our Lady prophesied! If anybody disagrees with my assessment that the Council was a camouflaged piece of rotten _____, then I challenge anybody to provide me with one, just one, good orthodox fruit that resulted from it. How has the faith been in any way enriched by the Council? Good luck.
zero.
It seems Vatican 2 was just a great deception, it has made the Catholic Faith appear irrelevant, bring back the pre Vatican 2 faith
Vatican II was the modern day Sanhedrin’s trial of Christ and the wake of the Council was the Way of the Cross.
I still wonder if it mentions the sexual abuse scandal and they did not want that coming out. I never believed the “official revealing” given since there was nothing that they said the message contained that would merit it being kept from everyone. No there is something quite grave about the churches leaders/priests that they feel will ruin them if it got out. My question, what can be worse than what we already know as fact, save outright diabolical activities to serve him that shall not be named perpetuating more evil in this world.
Okay so Fatima was approved by the Church in 1930 and correct me if i’m wrong but the 3rd secret
could have been revealed at any stage since 1930 with 1960 marked as the critical point.
So why did no Pope prior to the election of John 23rd reveal it?
And of course why did no Pope consecrate Russia as requested?
Remember this was the time before V2 which many believe was a steadfast time for the faithful.
It’s all hypocrisy to me and I don’t trust any of them. And since Fatima is private revelation Catholics are
not in any way morally wrong to ignore it.
None of the points I raise are new nor are they intended to provoke mischief I just want to make sense of
a veritable basket of rotten fish.
If Pope Pius XII had revealed the 3rd secret, and if it had contained the prophecy that denial of the faith and the sinful heresy of Modernism would be taught from the highest offices of the Vatican some day, he would have been bound in conscience to assert that “outside the Church there is no salvation.” As Holy Scripture admonishes us, “Go you not out.” When false Christs lure the world elsewhere, “Go you not out of the Church,” for there is no salvation out there for mankind. Everything Christ left His Bride is still contained in the One, True Church where the 7 sacraments are there to distribute sanctifying grace and a share in the Divinity of Christ, which has its beginning in the sacred waters of a sacramental baptism “of water and the Holy Ghost.” “Wonder NOT that I say, you MUST BE BORN AGAIN.” If Pope Pius XII had made statements such as these in 1949, he would have been treated – most assuredly – as was Father Leonard Feeney treated in 1949 for saying exactly that. The errors of Modernism can only be reversed by a declaration from Rome that Christ has always been faithful to His one and only Bride, the Church, the glorious depository of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God!
Okay Phyllis thanks for that perspective.
We just don’t know but can speculate reasonably as you have.
There’s an excellent and informative YouTube video (audio) of Fr. Malachi Martin interviewing Brother Francis of the St. Benedict Center that was founded, I believe, by Fr. Leonard Feeney, SJ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfkM-2FEkxw
Thanks for this, Anna. Yes, Father Feeney founded the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1949. There are currently 8 branches here in the USA. Fr. Malachi Martin visited the brothers in Still River and met with Father Feeney. So did Father Alonso, the world expert on Fatima whose complete writings on the Fatima apparitions are still kept from the public. He stayed more than a week visiting with Father Feeney. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Still River were the sole American distributor of the book, “Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words.” The order is still a hidden treasure, but some day the world will know what a grace they have been to the Church.
I have that book from the Postulation Center in Portugal.
It was the first English translation of “Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words” that was given to St. Benedict Center to be distributed exclusively through them in the USA. I thought at the time that, if the postulator for the cause of canonization of the Fatima children thought that Father Feeney was wrong, they would not have wanted to associate themselves with his order. Time is proving Father to have been prophetic in that he chose to name his order “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” The holy slavery was taught by St. Louis de Montfort, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary was promoted at Fatima when Our Lady said, “Our Lord wants to establish in the world – devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” That seems to have been Father Feeney’s intent.
All great questions, Barry. The condition set down was “To be revealed when Sister Lucia dies, or in 1960, whichever comes first.” Since 1960 came first, it was Pope John’s responsibility. When Lucia asked why 1960, Our Lady said that it will be “mas claro” (more clear) at that time.
It’s wise not to ignore the revelation as purely private, however, because it tells us what Catholics must do (wear the scapular; daily rosary; amend our lives; 5 First Saturdays) to sanctify ourselves bring grace for the Church, and do reparation. Padre Pio once said that when enough Catholics obey this Fatima Message, it will draw down from heaven the graces needed for the pope to do the Consecration.
It would take a book to tell why/how all the popes didn’t get the Consecration right, for one reason or another. John Salza already wrote the book, which you can buy from Fatima Center. (Margaret can do much better a job than I in explaining this point).
As for post-conciliar popes who didn’t reveal the 3rd Secret, well, here is what John Paul II said :
“Given the seriousness of the contents, my predecessors in the Petrine Office diplomatically preferred to postpone publication so as not to encourage the world power of communism to make certain moves.
“On the other hand it should be sufficient for all Christians to know this : if there is a message in which it is written that [Divine chastisements will occur, etc.] truly the publication of such a message is no longer something to be so much desired.
“Many simply wish to know simply from curiosity. and a taste for the sensational, but they forget to realize that knowledge also implies responsibility. They only seek the satisfaction of their curiosity, and that is dangerous if at the same time they are not disposed to do something, and if they are convinced, that it is impossible to do anything against evil.
Holding up a Rosary he said, “Here is the remedy against this evil. Pray. Pray and ask for nothing more. Leave everything else to the Mother of God.
“We must prepare ourselves to suffer great trials before long, such as will demand of us a disposition to give up even life, and a total dedication to Christ and for Christ……with your and my prayer it is possible to mitigate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because
only thus can the Church be effectively renewed. How many times has the renewal of the Church sprung from blood? This time, too, it will not be otherwise. We must be strong and prepared, and trust in Christ and His Mother, and be very very assiduous in praying the Rosary.”
Notice how he says NO LONGER POSSIBLE, implying that at one time (probably in or before 1960) it WAS possible. Anyway, food for thought.
Yes Michael, food for thought.
I suppose all we know for sure is that GOD knew how events would unfold.
As for post-conciliar popes who didn’t reveal the 3rd Secret, well, here is what John Paul II said :
“Given the seriousness of the contents, my predecessors in the Petrine Office diplomatically preferred to postpone publication so as not to encourage the world power of communism to make certain moves.”
I don’t buy that but what do I know, thanks.
Rest assured I was merely quoting. Personally I’m not sure what to believe on this topic anymore. The following quote, however, sounds more peremptory than diplomatic postponement :
“As the world anxiously awaits the full revelation of
the Third Secret in 1960, as Our Lady had directed, an unnamed
person close to the Pope authorizes the Portuguese press agency
A.N.I. to report that John XXIII has decided that the Third
Secret will not be revealed in 1960 and would probably remain,
forever, under absolute seal.”
But if that “revelation” is not “private”, what is it ? It cannot be part of public revelation, because that would amount to saying that revelation did not end with the death of the last Apostle, but took place as recently as 1917. But such a position is contrary to Catholic dogma – it is therefore heretical.
And in any case, the alleged locutions during an apparition have no weight for anyone but the visionary, and need be believed in by nobody else: this last point is certain, and is explained in Poulain’s “Graces of the Interior Life”, a book which comes with the approbation of the then Pope Pius X.
R.P.Aug.Poulan: The Graces of Interior Prayer (1910)
A Treatise on Mystical Theology, this book is a survey of the Kingdom of Prayer in all its length
and breadth, in its lowest as well as its most perfect forms. The Interior life is seen to be a process, an orderly evolution,
of which we can outline the laws and mark the successive stages.
An excellent read and very informative, thanks for reminding me of a valued treasure!
Another sort of manual on the Interior Life is: “Three Ages of the Interior Life” by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange; a thorough 2 volume work.
Don’t know that one Anna, thanks.
Obviously, public revelation and the deposit of Faith was closed with the death of the Holy Apostle John, the Theologian and Beloved Disciple.
It’s not private revelation either. Private revelation is for the person(s) alone, e.g. Our Lord appearing to Theresa Neumann. In the August & September apparitions, people (other than the 3 children) saw phenomena (e.g. the perfumed branches of the tree).
So since it’s not public Revelation and it’s not private revelation, what is it? It’s a public prophetic revelation, which is between the previous two categories.
Check out http://www.fatima.org.
I have to turn in. More later!
And at the 6th and final appearance in October,1917, 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun. This was well documented in secular papers of the time.
One addendum to your great post: It’s The Fatima Center USA http://www.fatima.org.
This, coming from the pope who simply could not grasp that the sexual abuse scandals had taken place. Whatever the Third Secret contained, he failed to warn us.
“…some annotations were added in the Fourth Memoir of 8 December 1941.”
This is the only thing Sister Lucia added to the account of the apparition of July 13th, 1917:
“In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved…”
That is the beginning of the Third Secret! The rest of the Third Secret is held by “etc”.
The Third Secret Vision (NOT the exact words of Our Lady!) was released in June 2000. There were…ahem…discrepancies that had to be explained away. In the Vision, the Pope is killed. The Vatican said this was a reference to the 1981 assassination attempt on PJPII. But even as the L.A. Times noted, PJPII survived – he was NOT killed.
In the July 13th apparition, Our Lady *showed* them a vision of Hell and THEN explained: “You have seen hell, where the souls of poor sinners go…”. Lucia KNEW it was hell, but Our Lady, as the best of mothers, explained it anyway. So…why would She do that (show them Hell and explain it to them) and NOT do the same for the Vision of the Third Secret? In the Vision, Our Lady does not say anything. Only the angel cries out three times: “Penance!” It doesn’t make sense unless one notices that there’s the Third Secret Vision (released in 2000) and the exact corresponding words of Our Lady: “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved…” with the rest being under lock & key in the Vatican.
Obviously, the Ever-Virgin Mother of God does NOT end Her sentences with “etc”! Therefore, the exact words of Our Lady which follow: “In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved…” MUST be revealed in order for us to understand what She said.
Check out http://www.fatima.org. They’re the best resource on Fatima.
I read many years ago, regarding the Third Part of the Secret, that Our Lady commanded Sr. Lucia; “You must tell this to no-one: Francisco, yes, you may tell him.” Lucia experienced all the visions; she was able to hear Our Lady speak and to ask questions. Jacinta could both see the visions and hear Our Lady’s explanations, but not converse with her. Francisco only experienced the visions; he never heard Our Lady speak. If, therefore, Lucia’s description of the vision is the totality of the Third Secret as released on June 26 2000, then why the permission to explain it to Francisco? He must surely have known every bit as much as Lucia?
Certainly, but as you said, Francisco couldn’t hear Her. Also, he was the first of the seers to pass away.
Barry, pardon me if I am writing too much on this, but it appears your comment above has increased in length. The first time I responded (see below) I don’t remember reading all of the comments you make above. I don’t know why……..but anyway to just to address the points I see now, that I didn’t find last time :
1. I too can’t understand why Pius XII didn’t do the proper Consecration, since, as you said, it was well before the Council, so we can’t blame the post-conciliar crisis. I am pretty sure Salza explains it well in his book, though.
2. Those quotes of Sister Lucia that claim it was done just as Our Lady asked are forgeries. See :
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr111/cr111.pdf page 26, which says,
“He cited, as proof of this nonsense, a letter supposedly written by Sister Lucy. Except that he doesn’t give us a copy of the letter – neither its full text, nor a photo image of any part of it. Nor does he tell us to whom the letter was addressed. All he tells us is that in a “letter of 8 November 1989,” Sister Lucy “personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consecration corresponded to what Our Lady wished: ‘Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984.’” We don’t need to see the letter, however, because we already know it to be a fraud. That letter was sent by someone purporting to be Sister Lucy to a Mr. Walter Noelker. It was one of
five notorious forgeries produced between August 1989 and July 1990, which had been debunked
by the French religious of the CRC (La Contre-Réforme Catholique) under the Abbé Georges de
Nantes, almost as quickly as they were produced.”
They were written on a word processor (something Sister Lucia never used), which was very convenient since it makes it impossible to compare it with previous letters ALL OF WHICH were handwritten. It is rather hard to believe a cloistered nun would be using a machine she never before or after ever used.
I seem to recall reading sometime within the past few months that, according to the Carmelites in Coimbra, rather late in her life, someone gave Sr. Lucia a computer and she took to it like the proverbial duck to water. But even should this be so, one would imagine that this would have happened post-1989. As for the mysterious Herr Walter Noelke; he never came forward; no-one ever identified him, and we can safely conclude that he is nothing but sheer invention. But we do know that in the late 1980’s the Bishop of Leiria Fatima sent Sr. Lucia a questionnaire, largely of a biographical nature, for the Fatima archives. But he also posed a few questions pertinent to the Third Secret. Sr. Lucia responded that she would answer all questions she was able to answer, but with the exception of those regarding the Secret since, as she explained, she could not speak about this without the permission of the Holy See. Therefore, if he wanted these questions answered, he would need to obtain the permission himself from Rome. This was in February 1989. Yet nine months later, there she is, having a cozy chat by mail with a complete (and obviously fictitious) stranger. And people wonder why conspiracy theories abound.
Thanks Michael, I re-edited that post to be more exact.
Interesting that John XXIII disobeys the Mother of God, without public repentance, and can still get canonized. What bizarre times we live in.
Everything that has taken place in the Church since Vatican II should be abrogated including all new saints.
Absurd. Are you going to start w St Maximilian Kolbe?
Not at all. Simply prudential. All cases for sainthood must be reviewed to assure legitimacy especially those whom Pope Francis made saints as they are complicit in the Vatican II catastrophe.
Bring back the devil’s advocate, and don’t begin canonization procedures until many decades have passed since the death of the one being considered.. I could have lived happily without the Church’s canonizing John XXIII, John Paul II, Mother Teresa, and Josemaria Escriva. I have problems with all of them being considered saints. And more problems are forthcoming: Paul VI and John Paul I.
Maybe Pope Francis will go out on a limb and canonize HIMSELF before
he dies.
He doesn’t believe in God and by the way he’s “the lord of the world”. He will be the leader of one world religion.
Agree Patrick. Canonizations have become political statements.
John XXIII disobeyed the Mother of God??? We’re all sinners; none without blame. But that is a serious accusation.
In 1931 Msgr Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII, made an astonishing prophecy when he said, ‘I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul…’
John XXIII’s opening speech at the Council was a complete denial of the message of Fatima: “We feel we must disagree with those prophets of gloom who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world was at hand.” This set the tone for the conclave that confirmed the prophecy of Pacelli, rejected the message of Fatima, eliminated the Holy Rosary and nearly expelled the Mother of God from the Church her Son created, to the delight of her enemies.
When doing research, one will read that John XXIII was beloved for his evident warmth and kindness. It will be harder to discover that he eliminated saints such as St Philomena ‘Patroness of the Living Rosary’ from the Calendar of the Saints. According to Fatima author Mark Fellows, Pope John was the Pope who single-handedly rehabilitated Communism, discredited Fatima and used deceitful methods to bury the Third Secret.
In the light of Fatima, he was the Pope of the Apostasy. He was beatified on March 3, 2000.
Being optimistic about the future is not the same as disobeying Mary.
And what a dreadful future it has been since Pope John XXIII uttered those words!
Yes, he disobeyed Mary. The third secret was to be revealed by 1960 and he refused. I would assume it’s not a mortal sin on his part because private revelations cannot be bind the conscious on anyone. That would include the pope. So what he did was not prudential and stupid and disobedient, but because it’s private revelation it wouldn’t be a mortal sin.
Btw, even if it is a mortal sin, a pope certainly can disobey God or Mary. Look at the pope’s through history who had been with prostitutes, fathered children, burned previous popes in effigy, etc. Popes can sin and can even go to hell.
By commie pope!
It’s pretty much the first block quote in the article above:
“In yet another unguarded interview, published in 1990, Cardinal Oddi spoke about his relationship with John XXIII. In the early 1960s, when acting as his secretary, he told the Pope: “Most Holy Father, there is one thing for which I cannot forgive you”. The Pope, surprised, asked what it was. Oddi replied that he had not revealed the Third Secret of Fatima, conveyed to three Portuguese children by the Virgin Mary in 1917, which had been scheduled for release in 1960. [emphasis added]
“Let’s not talk about it,” replied the Pope. Oddi said he had already delivered a hundred sermons and speeches on the subject. “I told you not to mention it,” said the Pope.”
Disobedience towards Holy Mary + no public repentance = bizarre that he is now proclaimed a public figure to imitate (the main purpose of canonization).
Not doing what Cardinal Oddi wants you to do is not the same as disobeying Mary.
So you think Cardinal Oddi, and Cardinal Oddi alone, wanted the secret to be revealed no later than 1960?
The third secret was put into writing by order of the bishop of Leiria. It was eventually transferred to Rome. Sister Lucia could not reveal the message herself due to her position and she intended a prelate to do it. The message was to be revealed no later than 1960, because it would be most relevant at that point according to Lucia. In 1960 it was in possession of the Holy See – guess who is charge that this place?
So, we now have John XXII saying, “Let’s not talk about it” – “I told you not to bring it up” – “don’t bring that subject up with me”
And what happens? It was never revealed. Who has final authority to reveal it at this point? John XXIII.
Let’s put it simply: third secret is in the hands of John XXIII in 1960. 1960 is the latest date it should be revealed because it would be most relevant. John XXIII possess the secret, doesn’t care for it, he doesn’t want anyone to mention it, and never reveals it.
John XXIII was the ultimate prelate, the highest authority, and he did not reveal in 1960, which was explicitly indicated as the latest date it should be revealed.
Now, since John XXIII brushed it off in 1960, that is acting exactly like the opposite of 1960 being the latest date and most relevant time (according to Sr. Lucia). Also, if anyone is confused, not revealing the message in 1960 – because that is the latest date – is indeed not following what heaven wants. Ergo, John XXIII disobeys the Mother of God and further he does not believe it to be relevant for his Papacy or the world – that exact opposite intention of the Mother of God.
No fool like an old fool.
I’m afraid you do not understand what “private revelation” means.
FATIMA WAS NOT a PRIVATE REVELATION. It was a PUBLIC REVELATION, with 70,000 people present, ATTESTED by GOD HIMSELF through the great Miracle of the SUN. God AUTHENTICATED, by His Signature, the FATIMA revelation. Jesus used MIRACLES to confirm He was GOD. So when God uses a MIRACLE of such grandeur, He confirms the TRUTH of FATIMA.
I have some questions which I posed on Catholic World Report in the comments section of the article regarding Mr. Symonds’ book. It appears my questions will go unanswered so I will ask the most relevant anew here:
If Fatima is done, if talking about it is to now make one conspiratorial, was Cardinal Caffarra a liar? If not then what did the letter he received from Sister Lucia about the final battle with Satan being over marriage and the family mean?
Is the current state of affairs the triumph of the Immaculate Heart? If so then it is quite odd that Our Lady’s message didn’t simply instruct that same sex “marriage”, rampant divorce, unrestricted abortion, et. al. are inline with Chuch teaching and not to be opposed. As for me, I do not believe that we are living in the period of Mary’s triumph.
Nor has Russia been consecrated, nor has Russia converted, nor is there a period of peace, either.
Brian, I assume that your questions are rhetorical, but just in case they are not :
No, Fatima is definitely not over and done with, precisely for the reasons you state, and the ones I added above. And no, Cardinal Caffarra is not a liar. The Fatima Center USA is the only site in the English language I know about which promotes/defends the whole message. All the others that I have seen, either believe that the full 3rd Secret has been revealed and the Consecration has been done according to Our Lady’s demand; or else they avoid mentioning it. So they will not answer you. The Fatima Center USA will answer every question you may have. Books by Christopher Ferrara are excellent and thorough. And check Margaret’s excellent comments below for further information. I hope this helps you.
The American TFP/America Needs Fatima teaches the whole message of Our Lady of Fatima. You can also contact them as well. They are located in Spring Grove, PA: http://www.tfp.org
Thanks for your reply. I know of them and support their TFP Student Action monthly. They send me e-mail every day. I haven’t yet seen them address the two big topics we often discuss here : the failure to consecrate Russia; and the fact that the 3rd Secret has not been completely revealed. I could have missed it. However they did invite Roberto de Mattei to speak at one of their conferences a while ago, and he definitely speaks forthright on at least the second of these two topics. So, I can see that they understand the situation. I wish they would be a little more vocal about these topics, but perhaps they feel it is beyond their authority. I’m not sure, but since this is no perfect world I still support what I see as good work. Thanks for replying.
CORRECTION : In regards to the two topics I mentioned above, I mean on their website or in the e-mails that I get from them. (Of course Robert de Mattei did speak of the Consecration, in the conference. Life Site News did a good article on it). Sorry for the error.
I know many of the TFP and I think the reason they don’t dwell on this is because there are so many other things to be fighting right now. If you know what is going on with the Satanic movement and the homosexual/transgender one, they are so busy with all of that because there are not enough men in the TFP for them to do everything. Thank you for supporting the TFP Student Action. My son is a part of that group. Please pray for them because they go up against some pretty hostile people.
You and your son are the salt of the earth! God bless you both, and do know that I pray for these brave men, of which your son is one, every day. When I see the videos that TFP sends to me, I am amazed at the bravery of these heroes; standing up like that, with complete serenity and confidence, in the face of such hellish, vicious abuse in public. And they never back down, or even become angry. I will continue to support TFP Student Action because of this bravery, believe me. And thanks a lot for explaining the situation with them. It makes sense, and it was pretty much what I had expected.
Again, God bless you and your son!
Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers. I am really humbled by that. God Bless you! I hope you have a very blessed Christmas season and New Year.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and family!
I was indeed asking rhetorical questions. I want somebody who accuses others of being conspiracy theorists or nutballs to answer or reflect upon those questions.
Indeed, there is even more still: rampant apostasy and atheism. Again, let’s give the folks who believe that Fatima is over the benefit of the doubt. Let us pretend that nothing happened after 10/13/1917. Is this ever growing atheism really Mary’s triumph? Are the sins which condemned people to hell more frequent and severe now than in 1917? How about ubiquitous porn?
If this is the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart than I am missing the boat big time as I don’t view porn, am faithful to my wife and children, attend mass and all HDoO, reject gay marriage and transgenderism (to much disdain among family and friends). Life would be substantially easier if one could believe that we are in Our Lady’s triumphant days.
Unfortunately the Fatima Center was riven by internal conflict after the death of Father Gruner. I trust the content prior to his death, but it appears to have somewhat departed from the direction which Father Gruner was taking. As a supporter I received a letter about the split which was sent shortly after Father’s death. Father Kramer, a colleague of Father Gruner, dissociated himself from the Fatima Center – and he had been a staunch supporter. Another example of the diabolical disorientation that has infected the post conciliar institutional Church.
I wasn’t aware of a conflict. I receive their mailings regularly, Fatima Crusader, and I am a member of Society of St. John Vianney. So I hear from them often and read their website almost daily. Since Fr. Gruner’s death I haven’t noticed any kind of change of direction. I did hear on the internet about something to do with Fr. Kramer, but I didn’t follow up on it at the time. Whatever may have happened or not, it appears to have been patched up, because Fr. Kramer was right there with them, spaeking at Our Lady’s Army of Advocates Conference, in California, just three months ago. So, I don’t mean to start an argument, but I can’t say that I have seen any D.D. on the part of anything coming from Fatima Center
Furthermore, I saw pictures of a prayer group at Fr. Gruner’s grave site a few months ago, and again, Fr. Kramer is right there in front praying along with everyone else. So, he seems to be associating with them once again.
I hope you are right. I used to support the Center when Father Gruner was alive and was disturbed when the divisions were surfacing. I hope they are back on track now.
Fr. John O’Connor had an interesting take on the consecration and period of peace. In the mid 80’s he said that we were living in the period of peace promised due to the consecration of Russia by Pius XII towards the end of WW2. However, since the consecration wasn’t done as the Blessed Mother requested, the conversion of Russia wasn’t complete and the period of peace limited. It’s possible at this point that the full conversion of Russia and the period of peace is no longer possible. I suppose its worth pointing out that it’s been 70 years since the last world war, despite attempts to bring one about. The Russians tried on three different occasions to start a nuclear war with the US, but were foiled at the last minute.
Pope John XXIII’s refusal of obedience to Our Blessed Mother has resulted in the entire Church being afflicted by the heresy of Vatican II where the Catholic Church was said to be subsumed in something called the “Church of Christ”–an ecumenical ploy used to create the Protestantized Catholic Church we have now. Vatican II was a catastrophe for the Church as we see now personified in the person of Pope Francis. Clearly the smoke and fire of Satan envelope much of the Church. Only divine intervention will save us now. Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.
Take comfort in Our Lady. It is not important, really, for any of us to know for certain this or that regarding specifics; is it?
Her Immaculate Heart will Triumph.
If Steve permits, please read the post on the Remnant:
Tuesday, November 28, 2017
Amoris Latitia: “An Assault upon the Sanctity of the Blessed Sacrament”
Written by Fr. Robert Bruicciani, SSPX UK
A classic case of Ecclesial Incompetence. (See lmschairman.org)
I also share the love of Fatima, but that happened before all of us were born. Our Lady carries on the march to the triumph through your personal holiness, but she also has to reclaim so many, many young people from sin and ignorance and one way she is doing that is through Medjugorje. My hope for you is to not dismiss the Medjugorje apparitions out of hand. My hope is that you would study the beginning of that phenomena and the supportive quotes from Pope John Paul II about it and the many times that Our Lady has mentioned the eventual triumph of her heart in her messages. Please forget what judgements you have already formed about it and begin to learn about it again with an open mind and heart. Our Lady has said that what she started in Fatima, she will complete in Medjugorje , the Triumph of her heart. She said that priests are the bridge to the triumph of her heart. There are many more things Our Lady has said about her expectations of us. The expectations are not easy: praying the three sets of mysteries of the rosary everyday, fasting strictly on only bread and only water all day Wednesdays and Fridays, confessing sins every month, attending mass as often as possible but at the least on Sundays and Holy days of obligation, reading the bible daily, and trying to be reconciled with God first and then reconciled with each other.
But we can not ignore what the Bishop of Medjugore has said as recently as March 2017: Ref: Catholic online
The bishop of the local Church where Medjugorje is located reiterated on Sunday his long-held belief that the alleged Marian apparitions at the site are false.
The statement delves extensively in what Bishop Radic considers the ambiguousness of the apparition.
“The female figure who supposedly appeared in Medjugorje behaves in a manner completely different from the real Virgin Mother of God in the apparitions currently recognized as authentic by the Church: usually she does not speak first, she laughs in a strange way, before some questions she disappears and appears again, she obeys the ‘visionaries’ and the local pastor who make her come down from the hill into the church even against her will. She doesn’t know with certainty how many more times she will appear, she allows some of those present to step on her veil extended on the ground, and to touch her dress and her body. This is not the Virgin of the Gospels.”
The bishop also takes issue with the visionaries’ request for a “visible sign” from the Virgin and the promise from one of the visionaries that there will be a sign at the top of the hill in the form of water.
“After almost four decades there is no sign whatsoever, nor water, just fantasies,” the bishop wrote.
The statement also makes detailed reference to the inconsistencies among the various visionaries regarding the purpose of the apparitions, as well as their duration.
“All the ‘visionaries’ but one agreed that the Virgin would appear for three more days … but she appeared to have changed her mind and still ‘appears’ for 37 years,” Bishop Radic said.
The statement mentions other irregularities, such as a strange trembling in the apparition, a false anniversary of the beginning of the apparition, inconsistencies in whether the apparition has a child, inexplicable silences, strange messages, discrepancies in dress, nervousness rather than peace among the seers, scandalous touching of the apparition, and intentional manipulation of the apparition.
In addition to your list of problems with Medjugorje, is that the Virgin has said, several times, that Our Lord and she are very happy with all her children regardless of whether they’re Muslim, Jews or Protestant. The true Mother of God wants all her children to be One with her Son in the Roman Catholic Church, of which, of course, He is the Head. Now I understand how there are so many who have found their “joy” there, as we’re all saved, regardless of our Creed. And yes, the “eye poking” wherein one of the ‘seers’ blinked is a far cry from the incidents with St. Bernedette having someone run a flame of fire back and forth under her hands, without injury or blinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPDRbO_qJ7g
How do we explain this….!
It is a lie “Home” it is a lie it is a lie it is a lie……anybody with any objective considerations concludes that the “seers”
have fabricated these “apparitions” or/and Satan or a Dark angel is operating.
And regarding “fruits” I would say that a sincere heart of Prayer is always responded to by God despite the environment.
So many people will be bitter and possibly leave the Church and a life of Faith when this lie is exposed to the world at large and
THAT is perhaps part of the Devil’s victory with medjugorje.
All supporters of this deception are on an emotional journey of deceit. Projecting the “comfort” they “realize” IN medjugorje and
attaching it to everything concerning the “seers” etc..
Satan loves to give signs and wonders and never disappoints. Supporters of medjugorje NEED to ask themselves 1 simple question:
“Would I remain faithful to the Truth of The Catholic Church IF medjugorje somehow was proven to be false?”
The late Fr Gruner’s Apostolate – The Fatima Crusader (www.fatimacrusader.com) – documents best (IMO) the historical developments of Our Lady of Fatima’s messages to us.
The lede to the Third Secret says “The dogma of Faith will always be preserved in Portugal, etc.” ergo it will not be so preserved in other Christian nations. The etc. (i.e., the Third Secret) was written also by Sister Lucia. What is this “Dogma of Faith”? What is this “Great Catholic Dogma” as Father Michael Mueller refers to it in his book on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus? It is exactly that. Cornelius a Lapide calls it “the all-important dogma” and the “foundational dogma.” Could the reason that these past six popes (I am including Pope John Paul I) did not reveal the words of Our Lady in the Third Secret be that they did not (do not) believe in the “all-imporant dogma” the “Dogma of Faith”?
Home, first of all the following quote from your reply:
“In a conversation that Fr. John Chisholm had with Bishop Ratko Peric, Fr.
John asked the bishop if he believed in Lourdes. The bishop slammed his
fist on the table and yelled “NO”. Fr. John asked the bishop if he
believed in Fatima, and received the same answer. With this information,
it would seem unlikely that the bishop would believe in Our Lady’s
apparitions in his own diocese.”
That is hearsay unless you can provide evidence.
A second quote from your reply:
“What is the message or purpose of Medjugorje?
The message of Medjugorje is a call to Conversion, conversion
back to God. Our Lady gives us five Stones or weapons (prayer, fasting,
confession, the bible, and the Eucharist), which we can use to overcome
the power and influence of evil and sin in our lives. This is the “Message of Medjugorje”.
Our Lady’s purpose for coming to earth is to guide each one of us back
to her Son Jesus. She does this by leading us step by step toward a life
of holiness through the hundreds of messages she has given to the world
through the visionaries in Medjugorje.”
You can make that thousands of “messages” not hundreds.
The call to conversion is the nature and very raison d’être of the Church
and Prayer, fasting, Scripture, and the Sacramental life is the responsibility
of the Church.
Our Lady guides the Church and has done throughout it’s history and as I have
said in an earlier post, God responds to sincere Prayer and practice of the Christian
virtues regardless of the environment.
The local Bishop’s personal opinion carries significantly more weight than yours or mine
as this is a primary duty of his office.
Home, did you see the video clip? What are we to make of THAT?
Thank you for your reply.
I viewed the video clip. There are two very large errors that the narrator made within the first 40 seconds. At 27 seconds, the narrator states that the apparitions began in 1985. That is incorrect. They began June 24, 1981. The second error at 31 seconds states that the apparitions occur on consecutive Fridays….also wrong. They have been occurring to Marija and Ivan daily for the past 36+ years. Apparently you think that because Vicka recoiled a bit when the person threatened to poke her eyes, that is cause to disbelieve. I do not view it that way. Vicka holds her gaze despite the threat to her eyes. I also am dubious about the latter part of the video narration because of the large errors in the report. We are on the same team, Barry. We want the VIrgin’s Heart to triumph. I view you as a brother in Christ. We are taking different trails to get to the same goal. May the peace of Christ be with you.
Thanks Home, I had caught the 1st error regarding 1985.
I read a book some time ago by E. Howard Jones about medjugorje which
goes into great depth about it all and found it very interesting. I appreciate your
replies and offer the same expression of charity and wishes, God bless and take care.
Father Malachi Martin was working for Cardinal Bea, one of Pope John XXIII’s closest advisers in 1960. He got to read the third secret, but was, like all who read it, sworn to secrecy. In his last public interview in 1998, available on Youtube, he was asked if he could confirm the actual third if it was read to him. He said yes and he would be very happy to do it. When the interviewer finished reading the article Father Martin said “yes and no”. The third secret is included in what you read, but there are paragraphs of other material interspersed within the writing. This was done when Cardinal Ottaviani wrote it so as not to break the oath. It is all in there except for one thing. The worst thing. The interviewer gasped and said “If there is something worse than what I have just read, do you not think this might be the reason why the Pope decided not to give it to the world?”
Yes, Father Martin said, “but the lady told him to read it and he had no right to refuse”.
In 2013, before Father Luigi Villa died, he shaded in the parts of this same article for a reporter. The reported asked him if he could reveal it to the world after he died. “Yes” he replied “It must be revealed now.”
The pamphlet, “The Third Secret of Fatima”, with the 25 lines which Pope John refused to read is available from The Apostolate of Our Lady of Good Success.
http://www.ourladyofgoodsuccess.com or email: [email protected]
I have given copies to everyone I know personally and I would type in the whole 25 lines here, but it has not been picked by any of the Catholic Magazines or newspapers so I think it best if you go the source or maybe Steve could confirm it here. I am quite sure that the Vatican would not accept it, but I believe Fathers Malachi Martin and Luigi Villa, who dedicated, and often risked their lives while researching and revealing the churches problems, are probably the most accurate and truthful sources available.
I had spent a lot of time a few years ago trying to locate the original message of Our Lady of Good Success. What I found was that the Bishop of Quito did approve the statue of Our Lady as miraculous and also approved public veneration of it. But as for this amazingly accurate prediction of the late 19th and 20th century, I could not find a word, before the book by Marian Horvat. A friend pointed out to me that she’d found an entry in “Catholic Answers” from around 2013 or so (3 years earlier than my quest), someone else had this question and researched it heavily in an attempt to find a copy or a history of this remarkable message and found nothing. I’m skeptical until I can lay hands on documentation between 1500 and 1998, that the accuracy might be due to hindsight.
The material for “The Third Secret of Fatima” booklet came from the magazine “Chiesa viva” n. 462 July-August 2013 which was started by Father Luigi Villa back before 1980. The pamphlet sold by Our Lady of Good Success was taken from the magazine and has nothing to do with that apparition. The third secret given in the pamphlet was related by Father Villa to the reporter just before he died in 2013. For more info on the magazine reliability go to http://www.padrepioandchiesaviva.com . It is the 25 line third secret that Pope John XXIII was supposed to read in 1960 according to both Father Villa and Malachi Martin who personally read the Secret at the time. When you read it you will realize why Pope John XXIII declined to tell the world as Mary instructed and why the Vatican denies today that it even exists. (Father Luigi Villa was sent by Padre Pio to Pope Pius XII in 1956 to be given a position in the Vatican to defend the church from enemies both outside and within the church. His story pamphlet and the 3rd secret pamphlet can probably be read online at either of the websites I listed.). Pope John Paul II quoted lines from it, but as far as I know it has never been listed completely anyplace else.
Father Malachi Martin was working for Cardinal Bea, one of Pope John XXIII’s closest advisers in 1960. He got to read the third secret, but was, like all who read it, sworn to secrecy. In his last public interview in 1998, available on Youtube, he was asked if he could confirm the actual third if it was read to him. He said yes and he would be very happy to do it. When the interviewer finished reading the article Father Martin said “yes and no”. The third secret is included in what you read, but there are paragraphs of other material interspersed within the writing. This was done when Cardinal Ottaviani wrote it so as not to break the oath. It is all in there except for one thing. The worst thing. The interviewer gasped and said “If there is something worse than what I have just read, do you not think this might be the reason why the Pope decided not to give it to the world?”
Yes, Father Martin said, “but our lady told him to read it and he had no right to refuse”.
In 2013, before Father Luigi Villa died, he had shaded in the parts of this same article that made up the real secret for a reporter. The reported asked him if he could reveal it to the world after he died. “Yes” he replied “It must be revealed now.”
The pamphlet, “The Third Secret of Fatima”, with the 25 lines which Pope John XXIII refused to read is available from The Apostolate of Our Lady of Good Success.
http://www.ourladyofgoodsuccess.com or email: [email protected]
I have given copies to everyone I know personally and I would type in the whole 25 lines here, but it has not been picked up by any of the Catholic Magazines or newspapers so I think it best if you go the source or maybe Steve could confirm it here. I am quite sure that the Vatican would not accept it, but I believe Fathers Malachi Martin and Luigi Villa, who dedicated, and often risked their lives while researching and revealing the churches problems, are probably the most accurate and truthful sources available.
“The Third Secret – that is, the vision – as we now have seen it putatively fully revealed in 2000, does not explain to us the danger of apostasy, nor the other dangers threatening the Faith.”
Au contraire mon ami. The effects of the apostasy are shown in the vision of the third secret by the Pope(s) going through the half destroyed city (i.e. the Church) blessing corpses (dead souls).
Someone really needs to break in and steal the document, translate it and publish it!